Fun Stuff > CHATTER
patriotism/nationalism
benji:
I haven't read much of this thread, but there seems to be a misunderstanding of what the words "Patriotism" and "Nationalism" mean.
Patriotism: Love of country. This doesn't have to be unthinking flag-waving and saber-rattling. One can love the country one wishes to reform.
Nationalism: The idea that a people with the shared language, history, culture, and religion also share a destiny and should therefor be grouped together as a single nation. In it's most extreme forms, it tends to hold that whatever nationality it supports is somehow superior to all others.
One can be a patriot without being a nationalist. For example, there aren't many nationalists (in the strictest sense) in the US because we don't have a shared language, history, culture, or religion. Thlayli, you may really want to reconsider calling yourself an American Nationalist. Most of the people who do so are white supremacists who believe that only white, English speaking protestants belong in this country.
One can also be a nationalist without being a patriot, for example if one's "nation" is currently a part of another country. Though if you later win independence, you may become a patriot, and even be regarded as a great patriot.
As for who's "more racist," I don't think that's a simple thing to say. While it is now true that it is easier to go to many European countries then it is to go to the US, this is a relatively recent development. The US has had a long struggle with the kind of racial and cultural diversity that's really just starting in Europe. Already, we're seeing the cracks in places like France. Europeans of European descent in Western and Northern Europe are becoming very concerned with assimilation it seems. We will have to see what happens when large portions of most major European cities have African or Middle Eastern majorities and when these people want to maintain there own cultures.
Canada has done relatively well, though, with similar conditions to the US. I'm not sure what the difference was, but if I had to venture a guess, I would point to a lower population density coupled with some key historical differences.
KharBevNor:
--- Quote from: Thlayli on 09 Aug 2008, 07:35 ---One of my ancestors actually forced his unusually rich parents to buy a town in South Carolina in order to free the slaves there and give them the land, before the Civil War. Last I checked, they still have the town named after him. The money in my family tree just happened to dry up after they spent everything they had for the sake of human rights.
--- End quote ---
That's really nice. I'm sure you feel fucking proud. Didn't stop the lynchings though, did it? Didn't mean America didn't have legal slavery long after it was abolished by the British, French, Dutch, Spanish, Portugese, Danes, Japanese, Brazilians, etc. etc. etc. Didn't stop Jim Crow, segregation, the KKK etc.? I mean, it's wonderful your ancestor was such a swell guy, but his laudable actions don't mean America wasn't a racist hell-hole, and they don't mean America isn't still particularly rife with institutional racism. When did you personally take any positive action to end racism and bigotry? Still resting on your great great great whatever?
Ethics and work habits? Sweet Jesus. I hope you know that's bullshit.
For the record, I don't think Americas inferior, so much as unusually arrogant and blind to it's incredible failings. Don't sweat it anyway, world economy's collapsing in a couple of years, then we'll see that great mom and apple pie crying bald eagle god bless America work ethic in full swing whilst you shoot each other in the street for a loaf of bread.
Alex C:
I've always quietly chalked up the worst excesses people attribute to nationalism as really being more of a problem with imperialism, actually. Nationalism on the face of it, makes a fair bit of sense. A shared culture, after all, is really no more than a fancy term for a set of shared interests and priorities, so it makes sense that people with the same general priorities should cooperate and work as a unit. For example, as a United States citizen hailing from Minnesota, it seems foolish that I should have much to say about the lives of trawler captains working of the coast of Greenland. The problem comes about when some bozos pick up a map and start telling people they know how to manage their lives than better they do. After all, nationalism has been a response to tyranny as often as it has been a tool of dictators.
mooface:
--- Quote from: KharBevNor on 09 Aug 2008, 03:19 ---It's easier to emigrate to almost any European country, for a start.
They're also mostly much less racist!
--- End quote ---
ahahahaha... what? i can't speak for every european country, but i'll just go ahead and speak for italy. i honestly have no idea what the immigration process is like, although i am sure it's less invasive & strict than the american way. but at least you have the option of eventually becoming an american citizen once you've been here long enough. in italy and several other european countries (i am pretty sure germany and france operate along the same lines) you really have no chance of ever being considered a citizen, no matter how long you live there, unless you are married to one or have family originally from there. even your children won't be considered citizens, even if they are born there, if they are not descended from citizens!
as for racism... seriously? you think that europe is less racist? again, i'll just go ahead and speak for italy where racism is completely ingrained into the culture. if you say something racist against the polish, gypsies, albanians, moroccans... no one even gives you a second glance. not everyone is racist, but it's considered normal to have at least some blatantly racist sentiments. i won't even start on the french and germans who i've known to be openly and unashamedly racist.
i'm definitely not going to deny that america has plenty of issues when it comes to racism. but honestly, at least it is mostly frowned upon as being wrong and politically incorrect. and it's ridiculous to suggest that america is alone or "the worst" in its racism, when really prejudice and discrimination can be found all over the world in various forms.
america has a lot of issues and problems, but just because patriotism pisses you off doesn't mean that you need to go on a bashing spree. all countries all over the world have wonderful things and terrible things about them. and yes, some have more bad than good, or good than bad. but there is no reason to get all arrogant and up-in-arms just because people love their country for its good qualities and despite its flaws. it's only natural to feel attached to the culture which formed you, which you can identify with and that you most truly belong to. taken to an extreme in which you think your country is superior, this can be a bad thing. but there isn't anything wrong with appreciating the place you grew up in becuase you got a lot of good out of it - and i'm sure thlayli is not completely ignorant of america's bad qualities just because he loves his country. i don't see why him feeling glad about fitting in america is any worse than you being so completely judgmental and accusatory of an entire nation.
basically what i am trying to say, khar, is that you need to stop getting so angry on the internet.
Alex C:
Damn painkillers are making me all giggly 'n' shit. I only read the OP before posting earlier so now I'm just stuck here snickering at the fact that I didn't notice I was posting in the midst of a brewing shitstorm. I find this unreasonably amusing. /blog
Anyway, yeah, what MaiAda said. Also, I find the idea of pulling the immigration card out against the US kind of funny considering I'm a legal citizen despite the fact that until 5 years ago I still had living relatives who were illegals when they came here, and for the most part my family hasn't had to take shit from anyone. I know it's the racists who get all the press when it comes to concerns about illegal immigration, but for every stereotypical asshole out there who's really only got a problem with skin color there's a whole mess of people who plain don't care as long as you're a decent person or who honestly have legitimate economic concerns with the situation in general rather than the people involved in particular.
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