Fun Stuff > CHATTER
ASBO = AAAAAAGH
Vendetagainst:
--- Quote from: tommydski on 27 Jul 2008, 07:58 ---
As a breach of human rights these relatively minor and isolated incidents are not quite on the same scale as say, The Patriot Act or Guantanamo Bay. Could I write a compelling story on these topics if I had the inclination to do so? What about the fact that one percent of the adult population of America is in jail? I think you could make a pretty good story out of that too.
--- End quote ---
Once again I am coming a little too late in the thread to keep up, but I'd like to say that nobody in America (save of course the far right wing, but these, of course, are not people) is about to go running and cheering for those things. The USAPATRIOT act (for it is indeed an acronym, and is less of an oxymoron when it is retained as one) is probably one of the most unpopular decisions in recent American history and everybody is appauled by Guantanamo (except for Cheney, who has been known to splooge on the prisoners in his ecstasy). Quite frankly comparing these things two ASBOs is like a Reductio Ad Hitlerum, it may have some relevance but nobody's about to say "but wait, I love raping tied up 'terrorist' supsects!"
--- Quote ---I definitely feel like some people here aren't giving due thought to the difficulty of policing a country of sixty million people in eighty one thousand square miles.
It's easy to criticise but what is much harder is finding solutions. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the professionals responsible for enforcing and creating legislation have given these concerns a certain amount of thought. I think the people who have first-hand experience of actually doing the job have some legitimate motives for taking this course of action. To assume that you know better than these people based on a handful of hits from a search engine is mind blowing.
--- End quote ---
Of course it's difficult, but it's also something that all large countries have to do. The UK accounts for less than 1% of the world population, and while of course it's easier to run a small country you can still look at a country like Germany which, despite being a third larger, still is supposed to be very well-run.
@supersheep
your suggestions are interesting but I'd just like to throw out that minor crime is some of the hardest to prevent because it leaves the least evidence and is inducive to the least response.
I've started to wonder if the best answer isn't to wage one of our sillly "wars" on crime, but to make the victims of crime more readily and effectively aided. For example, in Chicago (probably elsewhere too) there's a tax-funded service called graffiti busters (I think that's the name of it, anyway) that removes graffiti from anywhere in the city for free.
Vendetagainst:
I did, sorry, I just have this habit where I just post one idea and then keep editing it as I read through things and research them more. I know it's kinda retarded, just a habit.
ViolentDove:
Various state governments of Australia are considering the introduction of these ASBOs.
SMH article
dateline transcript
I honestly don't think I know enough about these ASBOs to make an informed comment, but my gut feeling is that they're a bad thing. Previous personal experience with "anti-terror" and "anti-knife" related laws suggest that once the laws are passed, the laws will basically be used by police to curtail free speech by protesters and the media (to a lesser extent), and rarely for the original purpose outlined in the laws.
Anything with such vague wording that deals with criminal matters away from a jury seems to me like an erosion of various legal safeguards that're in place for a reason.
calenlass:
--- Quote from: Oli on 26 Jul 2008, 04:56 ---
--- Quote from: Vendetagainst on 26 Jul 2008, 03:25 ---"In October 2004, a profoundly deaf girl was served an order for spitting in public. Having broken it she is currently in prison on remand. (Source—Statewatch ASBOwatch)"
--- End quote ---
The fact she is deaf does not mean that spitting in public is not a positively ghastly thing to do.
--- End quote ---
Oops. Sorry, man. In my defense, I was ill.
a pack of wolves:
--- Quote from: Oli on 27 Jul 2008, 09:10 ---I think everyone has to remember that the British police are, by and large, reasonable people. It is pretty easy to claim that people in authority are all mindless, soulless drones but it is also something that a 15 year old would do. While I don't neccessarily agree with this idea of authority I do think it is unfair to see police officers as anything but another person wearing a uniform. The police are really not out to get you. (Sting might be)
--- End quote ---
Actually, yes they are out to get me. Some go into it with decent motivations and they're not just abstract figures in uniform as you say, but as an organisation the British police are terrifying. I've been on the wrong side of them abusing legislation before, and so have a lot of people I know. It's not a pleasant experience to say the least, and the thought of them getting even more power is horrifying. They will abuse it since they're willing to abuse pretty much everything else in their arsenal and I've seen them do it.
--- Quote ---It's easy to criticise but what is much harder is finding solutions. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the professionals responsible for enforcing and creating legislation have given these concerns a certain amount of thought. I think the people who have first-hand experience of actually doing the job have some legitimate motives for taking this course of action. To assume that you know better than these people based on a handful of hits from a search engine is mind blowing.
--- End quote ---
Sorry Tommy, but you're making massive assumptions here about people and you're usually better than that. You have no idea about the experience most of us have regarding this kind of legislation (or at least you have no idea about mine and I'm guessing that of others as well), so to assume we're all in bubbles getting all of our opinions from google is pretty ridiculous. I don't assume I know better than the police because I've looked something up on the internet, I think I know better than them because they're wrong. supersheep is quite right when they say that the way to tackle anti-social behaviour is to address the causes, something ASBOs and the police don't do. All they're capable of is hurting people. However the broken window policy isn't a great one, what's needed is to actually address the massive inequality in society. When kids are stood around shopping centres being abusive I don't want to know why the police aren't harassing them, I want to know why kids feel that fucked off with the world. When I look around, I can see little reason why they shouldn't be angry all the time. I know I am.
Since you're keen on the specialist perspective, if you look at it from the side of people who're trying to stop people ending up in a situation where they could get an ASBO every single homeless support worker I've talked to about ASBOs thinks they're abusive and utterly unhelpful. To spin round what you said, what makes you assume you know better than them?
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