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[Ozymandias]

I have totally argued with my roommate about the weather.

Also, I continue to find Khar's crusade against sport to be hilarious.

[KharBevNor]

I dunno what kind of statistics I'm supposed to present.

I can tell you that wikipedia has over twenty articles specifically devoted to hooliganism and sports violence, in its various permutations and occurences, and none that I could find discussing violence at concerts. I can tell you that searching for 'sports violence' and various permutations on google will turn you up hundreds of websites, articles and books discussing the phenomena of violence at sporting events, whereas if you search for 'concert violence' only three of the items on the first page are about violence at concerts (at least as many were about concerts to stop violence). I could also note that much of the noted incidents of violence at concerts seem to involve rap music, which has wider issues of violence (thinking about those 'rap wars' or whatever with rappers shooting each other, I don't really know that much about it). But seriously, what statistics do you want me to find, other than the fact that it's common sense and common knowledge. Violence related to sports is repeatedly referenced as a social problem, concert violence isn't.

[KharBevNor]

Anyone ever heard people argue over the weather?

In Britain it would be strange NOT to talk about the weather.

[öde]

Sports are competitive, music isn't (except rap battles and feuds, unfortunately).

[imagist42]

Anyone ever heard people argue over the weather?

In Britain it would be strange NOT to talk about the weather.

Keyword "argue."

Although I must say I have argued over the weather. Mainly over whether it is too hot/cold, or just right. I am usually a proponent of "just right."

[benji]

Yeah, but arguments over weather don't tend to be as intense as some arguments over sports (and admittedly music as well) can get some times.

[0bsessions]

Some kind of statistic about general violence at concerts versus general violence at sporting events, Khar. The best I can do, and the best I'm pretty sure you can do, is assloads of anecdotal evidence. I've gone to about an equal amount of concerts and sporting events in my life and I've seen tons of violence at concerts while I've never seen violence at a sporting event in my life (Though there were some people setting shit on fire at my college when the Red Sox made it to the ALCS in 2003, though that was more a matter of drunken idiots looking for an excuse).

James, riots are something that happens so infrequently and is so often the result of multiple factors rather than just the one primary cause that I think it'd be impossible to really offer a valid statistic. With that in mind, I moved my argument to more a matter of overall violence across the two, something you'd think would be easy to track down (Though I can't find shit either way). In my personal experience, which is the best I can provide, is that I've seen more violence at concerts. I've seen people fighting security at an Ozzfest, I vividly remember the Woodstock riots (A repeat of a festival about peace and love marred by violence and rape).

The basic point of my argument isn't that concert goers are violent or that sports fans are not. That would be as flimsy as Khar's ignorant (Even going so far as having admitted his own ignorance on the matter) implication that all sports fans are violent idiots.

Violence at concerts and sporting events has little to do with the music or sport itself and more to do with the patrons. If you get enough people drunk in one spot and introduce an activity that raises their adrenaline, you are going to see violence now and again.

[valley_parade]

You'll likely see a few fights on Saturday, Jon. People are always getting thrown out for fighting during Sox-Yankees games.

[Jace]

tl;dr
I say this:

Violence at concerts and sporting events has little to do with the music or sport itself and more to do with the patrons. If you get enough people drunk in one spot and introduce an activity that raises their adrenaline, you are going to see violence now and again.

Board games are competitive, and you don't see people rioting over that. (Imagine that "FUCK YOUR BOARDWALK AVE! FUCK IT!") I think one of the main problems with sports and riots is that there is a large connection to alcoholic drinks and sports. People overindulge, get angry that Billybob, who has also overindulged, likes the other team. And that team just scored. Now Billybo is mad at Billybob so he starts to get into Billybob's face. Now, Billybob is not going to back down and walk away, because he is inebriated. So he pushes Billybo to get him out of his face. Then Billybo pushes back. And it just escalates. Now imagine that Billybob and Billybo each have family that do the same thing. And friends. Thats how riots start.

Now, at concerts. There's generally a lot less drinking, it doesn't go on quite as long, and there's less people. Also, I hate to say this, but many of the sports fans I know are not the most intelligent people. Sure there are a lot of intelligent sports fans but they aren't the ones you hear about. They know not to riot. I think that there are also a lot more intelligent people at a concert. Also, you do get one or two douchebags, but those guys are either quickly put in their place by the non douches, or they try to start a riot and get kicked out.

[0bsessions]

Ummm, you basically repeated exactly what I said in that first part.

In terms of concerts and drinking, that's simply not true in terms of the length. Unless you're going to a small club show, concerts usually go on for just as long and quite often there is extensive drinking. Get an opener or two and a big name headliner and your average concert is going to be three to four hours, and that's not getting into the idea of festival shows where people are drinking for ten to twelve hours in the sun in an environment where there's moshing and pitting and the like.

In terms of intelligence of the grouping, well, I'll call shenanigans on that. You ever been to a Pantera concert? Maybe Lynyrd Skynyrd or the like? A lot of their patrons almost pride themselves on their ignorance. With the exception of an indie concert, you're quite often going to have a pretty large contingent of morons and douche bags at most concerts, particularly with more mainstream bands. Sure, indie bands and obscure musicians don't really see a lot of violence, but when was the last time you saw a fight at a single A baseball game?

A lot of concert culture is outright based on fighting and violence. While shit like American football is a culture of violence on the field, it's usually kept to the field and doesn't extend to the fans, whereas musicians will quite often encourage moshing and pits and the like.

[Jace]

Ummm, you basically repeated exactly what I said in that first part.

yes, that's why I quoted you.

A lot of concert culture is outright based on fighting and violence. While shit like American football is a culture of violence on the field, it's usually kept to the field and doesn't extend to the fans, whereas musicians will quite often encourage moshing and pits and the like.

Obviously you don't know much about Raiders fans do you? They are the extreme worst. This is a team that has fans that will shank you. I knew people in Arizona that wanted to fight because someone said the Raiders sucked. Yeah, people not even fighting AT the game about it. Imagine what will happen at that game.

I think this is just one of the places where we will have to agree to disagree.
At some concerts, there's a lot of stupidity and violence. At others, none.
Same thing with sports.

[KharBevNor]

A lot of concert culture is outright based on fighting and violence.

What fucking concerts do you go to?

[0bsessions]

Mostly varieties of rock.

You're apparently unfamiliar with the concept of a Mosh Pit.

I have seen this shit at a fucking 311 concert. 311! A band whose primary musical message is "smoke pot and lie down for a while."

[KharBevNor]

Erm.

Moshing is a form of dance, not a fight.

[Alex C]

Board games are competitive, and you don't see people rioting over that.

I take issue with this; board games do not support a competitive culture on nearly the same scale as mainstream athletic events. While the object of a given board game may be to win, they are still usually played for sport in the purest sense-- they are leisure activities. While one can certainly point out that chess is played on a very high level, it is in many ways an individual sport- much like golf, one can certainly defeat themselves in chess through elementary blunders. There is little to lose and the only one you can ever truly blame is yourself. Tellingly, as much as you might admire Kasparov or Tiger woods, there's really no way you can ever really feel like you're truly a part of the man's success.

Mainstream team sports, on the other hand are another ball of wax entirely. In team sports, players can let eachother down or put "the whole team on their back," as the saying goes. There's an entire culture of putting the team first and making personal sacrifices in the name of success. Players are lauded for realizing that "No one is bigger than the team" and the marketing does everything possible to make spectators feel a part of this loop. For the players themselves, gigantic contracts are on the line, a reality that trickles down to lower levels of play when exceptional young men are earmarked as the next big thing. For god's sake, ESPN nationally televised several of LeBron Jame's highschool games, yet people are still shocked when someone's idiot father berates an ump for "persecuting" his golden child.

Let's not forget about your garden variety drunken asshole gambler either. Few things transform someone into a complete douche quicker than 3 or 4 giant stadium beers and losing $150 dollars on an ill-advised three team teaser. The fact of the matter is that there's some people out there who can't keep themselves from treating sports as SERIOUS BUSINESS, and the competitive and monetary aspects definitely play a huge role.

[Emaline]

Man, I don't know what mosh pits you have been in, Obsessions, but the ones that I have been in don't encourage just randomly beating the shit out of anyone. If you fall, someone is there to help you up. If you can't handle it, there is usually someone who will help you get out. And I've been to a lot of shit local hardcore shows. We used to have a pretty big hardcore scene here.

[Stryc9Fuego]

I hear you there. I remember being in a Pantera pit, and this skinhead just CRUNCHED my frickin' eye with his elbow. I think I punched him in the sweets on the way down, and after the set, we were chatting about what a great pit it was over a beer.

Miller Lite is a shit beer, but it makes a dandy Kold-Pak.

As far as the weather thing, I guess people can argue about anything. "Has anyone ever rioted over the weather?" That would be a better question.

[Nodaisho]

Erm.

Moshing is a form of dance, not a fight.

The only kind of dance I know of that can cause that much bodily harm. Unless you count capoeira.

Sports can be a way to "unite", for lack of a better word, it is just when people start treating it like serious business that it tends to go bad.

[KvP]

At a Pantera show you say?

*Pantera cover*

I never get tired of looking at this cover. Seriously, I have it on vinyl. I don't even like Pantera!

The guy volunteered for several takes of that cover. True story!

[RobbieOC]

A-Rod himself is making more this season than the entire roster of the Florida Marlins, who actually got just as close as the Yankees did to the postseason.

I'm excited to see some competition from the Rays this season, but I am concerned about the terrible influx of bandwagon fans. The Sox have too many themselves, but it irks me slightly to see people walking around the city in brand new Rays caps that were quite obviously not bought until the All Sttar Break. Where were these people five years ago? Three years ago? Shit, where were these guys in the spring?

Yeah, I was thinking of the Marlins, not the Rays. Sorry. But, still, my point is somewhat valid (not that anyone was arguing it).

Honestly, as far as bandwagon fans go, I'm alright with it. It bothers me, but it's just one of those things that are unavoidable. It's like fashion. If something is cool, people want in on it. The Red Sox have been pretty cool the last few years, and as a Royals fan I can empathize with wanting to be behind a good team. That might be largely why I am rooting for the Rays this postseason, because they are a similar team, payroll wise, to the Royals who have been close to the postseason only once since George Brett left.

I can also understand Khar's beef with sports, as it's something I've thought about a lot, though I've always come out on the side of "sports have some ridiculous things about them, but I can't turn my back on them" instead of "fuck sports" as he seems to have done. I won't argue with him about the riots, because they're pretty well documented around the world, but considering the number of sporting events that take place every day all over the world, they're really not all that common. Maybe more common than I'm happy with, but really not that bad. I mean, any given Saturday in the US there are millions of people in college stadiums for football games. I honestly don't remember the last time there was a riot at a college football game, and I follow it pretty closely.

[Scandanavian War Machine]

i just wanted to add a little anecdote from my own experience; i have seen a fight at almost every single concert i've ever been to.
now, does that make concert-goers or music fans idiots? no, it makes the people fighting idiots. does a riot at a sporting event make all sports fans/athletes idiots? no, it makes the people involved in the rioting idiots.

however, don't be confused; i do think that the world of professional sports is idiotic and should be destroyed but that doesn't mean the individuals involved are idiots. the athletes themselves are actually brilliant capitalists but that's not the point. the point is that broad, sweeping generalizations are no good for anyone.

.....except hippies. generalize about them all you want because this is the internet and they don't have computers.

[0bsessions]

Untrue. Hippies use Macs.

[benji]

Jon and Khar, keep in mind that you are from different places - a football riot is way more common than a baseball riot, and football hooligans do tend to be there more for the fighting than the sport, unlike most baseball fans.

I think this has a lot to do with the difference in perception. Football Hooligans are pretty well know the world over for rioting at the drop of a hat. In the US, people don't riot over sporting events all that often. It really seems to be about as often as they riot over a musical event. It certainly happens, but not all that regularly. There was a time when college towns seemed to riot regularly over sporting events, but that seems to have calmed down over the last few years. Many of those incidents had as much to do with police trying to crack down on underage drinking during the sporting events as they did with the sporting events themselves.  

[Vendetagainst]

There's only one way to respond to this.

To be fair, Pierzsynski seems like kind of a dick.

Pierzynski was probably the best part of the 2005 White Sox, and there where lots of good things about them.

There are plenty of hot Cubbs fans.

Cause you know, you never see any overweight, bearded cubs fans breathing laboriously imbetween long gulps of shitty beer. I don't think that was what Tommy was trying to say, anyway, though I could be wrong.

And everybody hates Ozzie Guillén, anyone who doesn't isn't sane enough to lead the country.

All Sox fans love Ozzie! He is happiness in an angry grimace.

I have the ultimate "shoot the shit" topic of conversation. It never goes very far except as an ice breaker, but I believe "the weather" is the most universal topic of conversation. You never hear someone talking about how it's pouring cats and dogs and how tough it was to get inside, then hear someone next to him say "FUCK YOU, JACKASS! this is the BEST FUCKING RAIN EVAR!!!"

This is a wonderful post.


Sorry I'm behind on the conversation.

[RobbieOC]

Pierzynski was probably the best part of the 2005 White Sox, and there where lots of good things about them.

He's a good player, I'm just not a fan of his. That's all.

[KharBevNor]

Man, I would not fight John McCain.

He'd probably chew my fucking nose off or something.

[RedLion]

Obviously you don't know much about Raiders fans do you? They are the extreme worst. This is a team that has fans that will shank you.

See, up here we just wear foam in the shape of cheese on our head.

[Inlander]

Sorry if I'm dragging us back to an old topic of conversation, but you can blame yourselves for being all posting and shit while the southern hemisphere's asleep. Anyway, I just wanted to say that sports rioting is, I think, a cultural problem endemic within the country in which it happens, rather than a problem with the sport itself. In Australia we play pretty much all the the same major sports they play in the U.K., and rioting here is practically unheard of. And even if rioting was a big factor here, I'd lean towards "blame the fans" rather than "blame the sport".

[Dimmukane]

Yeah, sports riots are a much bigger issue in the UK, concert riots are a much bigger issue in the US.  I've accepted that a while ago.  That's not to say that American sports fans aren't loony, they just don't care as much and/or drink too much and pass out.  I'd like to believe we're more vocal, but I'm not going to start another debate.

Sorry about that whole Nationalist comment guys, I didn't mean to get Khar started.

[Johnny C]

I have another reason not to vote for Obama:



America should be led by a good, honest fabric.

[Liz]

Oh man that is glorious. America, you are such a great country.

[ViolentDove]

Sorry if I'm dragging us back to an old topic of conversation, but you can blame yourselves for being all posting and shit while the southern hemisphere's asleep. Anyway, I just wanted to say that sports rioting is, I think, a cultural problem endemic within the country in which it happens, rather than a problem with the sport itself. In Australia we play pretty much all the the same major sports they play in the U.K., and rioting here is practically unheard of. And even if rioting was a big factor here, I'd lean towards "blame the fans" rather than "blame the sport".

The last time we had a sports riot that I can recall was after a football match between a Serbian-Australian team and a Croatian-Australian team. Organising that match was pretty much asking for trouble, really.

[Vendetagainst]

*Picture*

This is so depressing.

[onewheelwizzard]

The owner of that house can VOTE.

[Dimmukane]

Hah, crazy Floridians.  I don't know how many of you read Fark.com, but there's a reason that that state has it's own news tag.

[öde]

The owner of that house can RAISE CHILDREN.

[KickThatBathProf]

Is that Palin's summer home?

[Johnny C]

OBAMA: HALF-BREAD MUSLIM

[Jace]

OBAMA: HALF-BREAD MUSLIM

OBAMA: HALF BREAD. WHOLE WHEAT.

[Jace]

MONKEY COCKIN'.

MONKEY FUCKIN'.

SOUL BROTHER COCKIN'.

I think this is one of the best pagebreaks I've ever seen. ever.

[KickThatBathProf]

What the hell just happened

[benji]

Batman just happened.

[Inlander]

If it wasn't "Nananananananana BATMAN!!" then it wasn't real Batman.

[KharBevNor]

Batman doesn't play sports.

ARGUMENT: WON.

[Ozymandias]

Yeah, Khar has hit the nail on the head, here. If Batman doesn't do-


OH SHIIIIIIIIIIIIT

[Ozymandias]

Oh god, I love that cover, the more I look at it. It doesn't even look like they're playing baseball, it looks like they're trying to get you to come over to the plate so Batman can beat the shit out of you with that bat.

Wait.

Bat.

Batman.

OH SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT

[KharBevNor]

That's not Batman.

That's just some fag in a grey body sock.

[RobbieOC]

Also, home plate appears to be backwards...

[Johnny C]

Batman only has one rule, dude.

[Thomas Edison]

Wait.

So we're not voting Obama because Batman plays baseball now?