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[Stryc9Fuego]

Since the only other DDO page hasn't had activity since June, I thought it would be a good idea to start a new thread rather than Necropost. This thread would be for generic DDO questions and discussion.

To start: I was considering rolling up a monk character, though they seem to be a glass-cannon melee specialist(glass fist? what do you call a fragile bruiser?), and that sounds like a... tricky combination to pull off. I was looking at the various stats, and came across this Level 20 Feat:

Shining Star
Cooldown: 6 seconds
Usage: Active
Target: Foe, Directional, Breakable
You use the combined power of Earth, Wind, and Fire to set up harmonic vibrations within your enemy that force them to dance. A successful Will save negates this effect. (DC 10 + Monk Level + Charisma mod)

That's a special blend of cheese right there.

[Nodaisho]

Not really. You already need dexterity to not get hit (no armor) and to hit assuming you get weapon finesse, strength do do decent damage, decent constitution so you don't die when something sneezes on you, wisdom for most of your abilities, and then charisma for another few. By level 20, will saves will be great on any enemies that are a threat, and a lot of them probably already have immunity to what likely counts as a mind-effecting ability.

Points for the joke there, though.

[Felrender]

When do Bards get Irresistible Dance, though?

[Nodaisho]

Probably a lot sooner, and I'm sure that wizards and sorcerers get various mind control and stuns much sooner as well. If the monks are anything like the 3.5 monks, they sound really cool, but all of their cool abilities rely on different things, so they are stretched too far, and the abilities that would be good enough to focus on are limited heavily, since someone decided it would be overpowered to have them more than once a day, but gave identical abilities as spells to wizards, sorcerers, clerics, and druids.

[Stryc9Fuego]

Awright... if I'm seeing this right, Otto's Irresistible Dance is a 6th level Bard Spell and Bards get that spell level at level 16.

Source for OID info.
Source for Bard info

[Stryc9Fuego]

NECROPOSTAN!

I'm planning on rolling up a Warforged Monk. I'm wondering if Healer's Friend and Monk Improved Recovery stack. Had anyone tried this?

[Bastardous Bassist]

Probably a lot sooner, and I'm sure that wizards and sorcerers get various mind control and stuns much sooner as well. If the monks are anything like the 3.5 monks, they sound really cool, but all of their cool abilities rely on different things, so they are stretched too far, and the abilities that would be good enough to focus on are limited heavily, since someone decided it would be overpowered to have them more than once a day, but gave identical abilities as spells to wizards, sorcerers, clerics, and druids.

That's because monks were unstoppable in 3.0 (to the point where I know a lot of DM's who would not allow monks), and they overcompensated a bit in 3.5.

[Alex C]

Nerfing monks was excruciatingly dumb, and I honestly never had any issue with one in 3.0. I mean, yeah, they compared more favorably to fighters/rogues/barbarians back then, but holy hell, what didn't? The 3.5 nerf was the result of the same kind of magical thinking that leads to people calling Warlocks OP while thinking wizards are OK where they're at due to having few hitpoints.

[Nodaisho]

Because when you can always act first, stop time and get in five rounds worth of world-shattering spells before your opponent can act, your hit points are not very important. Some people fail to understand that.

[Bastardous Bassist]

I'd say wizards didn't get good until they started getting about fifth level spells.  I mean, fireball is awesome and all, but it's usually not that useful unless you're in a wide open space.  Fourth level spells end up being almost completely useless.  Plus, wizards have to rest after pretty much any encounter because they don't have enough spells to go more than two.  Of course, once they get into the teens, they're unstoppable even 1 on 1, as long as they only have to do one fight at a time.

[Alex C]

Yeah, but before then they're crazy buffing machines that bring counter magic, craft wands and scrolls and can use illusions to take on a minor scouting role if necessary. Meanwhile, monks of the same level range punch things and scout. Lower level mages are more useful than glamorous, but they're still definitely worth bringing along. Plus, it almost never pays to try and deal damage as a mage, tbh. I always just look to throw out the bare minimum of disabling spells needed to tip the battle to our favor and then I hold back, maybe throwing in some minor spells with my wands or something. I'm the kind of weirdo that thinks Rope Trick and Stinking Cloud are actually probably better than Fireball, all things considered.


And c'mon, we can all agree that druids and clerics were at least as ridiculous in 3.x as monks ever were in 3.0, right? I mean, they still had spell slot limitations, but the ability to have know such a wide variety of spells made them obscene if they had any chance to customize their spell load out for the coming encounter. Even if they didn't have a chance to do that, lord knows there's nothing wrong with just prancing around casting Hold Person and Divine Power before mashing everyone with your mace.

[Bastardous Bassist]

I can agree with you there.  My last DM (before I moved and started DMing 4th edition) thought that druids and clerics were terrible.  I had no idea where he got that from; he was otherwise very smart about D&D.  Also, I was in no way implying that wizards were worse than monks ever.  Of course, you're talking to a guy who kept trying to develop a bard into a duelist, which resulted in the worst of everything.  Still, I loved the character and I'm in general against twinking.

[Alex C]

Yeah, I know I come across as a min maxer at times, but I do such analysis in part to figure out how to keep things even. It's kinda sad when one class has to actively hold itself back a bit to not overshadow even a twinked version of a weaker class. For example, when I play 3.x clerics I often to just stick to the bandaid role rather than proactively stomp around like a jacked up Fighter with crowd control spells and a small fleet of skeletal servants, particularly if we have a new player in the group. It's not the newbie's fault that the classic sword 'n' board fighter in 3rd sucks, after all. By all rights such an archetype should work better than it does, but sadly the dice don't lie.

[Bastardous Bassist]

I am a terrible min maxer in D&D video games, because I want to achieve the most that I can on my first playthrough.  However, with the table-top version, I'm much more character-driven.

[Alex C]

Yeah, in table top I tend to min-max the hell out of weak classes so I can fit an archetype I like without being a complete waste and play the powerful ones super casual, although often times a gm is initially taken aback a bit by some of the sheets I come up with. For example, I really do like the warrior archetype. At heart, I'm a melee guy more often than not. That just doesn't always work out in high fantasy or sci-fi settings though when other guys aren't afraid to throw their abilities around. I just try to fit the table I'm at, basically.

[Jace]

monks

Worst 4 words for a DM to hear from the monk player:
I grapple the mage.

Oh look, now you can't cast spells. (this is of course if the magic user has to move their hands to cast spells, which I believe many did)

Also I was going to play this now that it was free until I saw that it had PREMIUM CONTENT for purchase and then I just decided not to download it.

[Stryc9Fuego]

There's always the Still Spell metamagic feat.
"I grapple the mage"
"Awright, jackass... he casts Stilled Lightning Bolt. Reflex check at -4 because of how close you are."

[Alex C]

At lower levels, yeah, sure, I can understand how you can fall victim to it. Deep Slumber is one of my favorite spells because it doesn't require you to move or speak, which makes it handy if someone immobilizes you, but it's also a tough spell to justify when you're so low level and have so few spell slots.

But honestly, once you can cast 4th level spells, it shouldn't be such a big problem anymore, because you have Dimension Door, which doesn't even need Still Spell. I made fun of one my friends for quite a while because he fell victim to grappling despite having access to 4th level spells. Really, why the fuck wouldn't you have Dimension Door memorized?! It's Dimension Door! You know what the first thing I do once I can cast level 5 spells is? I pick up Silent Spell so I can have a nearly unstoppable Dimension Door, that's what! It really is one of those spells that demonstrates Bassist's point about how Mages really, really take off around the 4th and 5th spell levels. Before then, you're a balanced character that is really nasty in short bursts. After you get it, you can just start being a complete douche bag to everyone and have the tools to at least get away.

[Nodaisho]

After 5th level, you shouldn't even need that except for in very limited circumstances. Can't grapple what you can't reach, and a fly spell lasts 5 minutes by the time a wizard can learn it. No combat should ever last more than 50 rounds. Coincidentally, this is one of the main problems with VoP monks as well, by 20th level you may have a lot of power to your attacks and armor, but you can't fly, can't get an item to fly, if you want to be useful while everyone else is zooming around like they're in Dragonball Z, you need to have the mage cast fly on you, which is a round that he could better spend killing or incapacitating about half the enemy team.

Or invisibility and summon spells, summons don't break invisibility and you need a really good spot check to be able to find an invisible person reliably, or something specifically to counter invisibility.

[Alex C]

Yeah, fly is pretty rad. My only issue with it is that it's best used as kind of a pre-emptive thing rather than an "Oh, shit!" button like Dimension Door; I've often times ended up burning it before I really needed it for the day.