Fun Stuff > BAND
1001 albums to listen to before you die
a pack of wolves:
--- Quote from: Bastardous Bassist on 02 Nov 2009, 20:41 ---Any performance of those works would be the same, no? Now, here's a question. Can a collection of pieces be considered an album, even though they weren't written to be released together, or even written by the same person? Before you answer, consider that there have been albums of popular music that were composed entirely of covers (the two I can think of immediately are Metallica's "Garage Inc" and The Bad Plus' "For All I Care").
Also, it may be a bit outdated, but I've not heard anything coming up to replace it, so I still use it. Would you prefer I use "concert music"?
--- End quote ---
So long as the recordings were collected by someone into a release then they don't need to be written by the same person, or even performed by the same person. Mix albums really blur who you would consider the performer. Should the piece I'm listening to now be thought of as being by Skream, who originally recorded it, or DJ Youngsta, who included it in his Dubstep Allstars Vol.2 mix, or a collaboration?
Concert music seems to make more sense, but it's not the word art that I don't think works but the idea of separating music into art, traditional/folk and pop which is just as problematic if you replace the word art for concert. Based on the tiny amount I've looked up (so I could be way off base here) that gets problematic when you get to experimental music. Noise would seem to be classified as pop since it doesn't ordinarily use written notation and doesn't use formal styles, yet it does require focussed attention from a listener and relies heavily on theoretical and critical consideration. Adorno seems to come up in mentions of people who used the division, but if you were to take Adorno's criticisms of popular music and the culture industry and apply them to noise then they don't really work, so the division he was describing seems to me to be one that has fallen apart since the time of writing.
Bastardous Bassist:
Or maybe the definition is outdated, not the use?
--- Quote from: Beren on 03 Nov 2009, 02:52 ---I would not put a potatoe in a list of 1001 best fruits I have ever eaten, but that doesn't diminish my exposure or love of potatoes. (I really do love potatoes).
--- End quote ---
Okay, Dan Quayle (sorry, I had to call you out on it since that's the EXACT mistake he made in the spelling bee).
--- Quote from: Beren on 03 Nov 2009, 02:52 ---I understand what you mean, and I think you're half right. Their are some cross-genre (the genres being the broad "art" music and "pop" music distinctions) recordings/albums that could have been added and were almost certainly excluded because of the album criterion and the way they're often thought of, but mostly they just belong on their own list. It just comes down to the custom of regarding most "art" productions as recordings and not albums. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, and there's certainly an historical basis for it, but it does sideline a few things in this situation that might/should have been in consideration.
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Obviously, it doesn't effect people who know lots about music and might buy both books, or look at both lists (I'd like to see the 1001 greatest performances, because I bet it's heavily weighted towards music before the 20th century). However, this seems to be a list for people who don't know as much as that (or maybe it's not), and they'll live their whole lives thinking that there is a huge separation not just between the genres, but between the people who listen to them. After all, I've been to tons of concert music performances and the primary attendees are old people in their suits and dresses. The opposite is true of most pop music performances I've been to and maybe somebody (or multiple sombodies) who is (are) respected by both concert and pop communities needs to come along and let more people know that there's something of value in both.
Using your example of the potato, somebody who likes fruits might figure vegetables are for stuffy, boring people (after all, vegetables tend to get a bad rap) but fruits are sexy, whereas if you put 1001 greatest plant products you've eaten together, maybe that person will realize that potatoes (and other vegetables) are really awesome and can be tasty. I really stretched that metaphor to its breaking point.
IronOxide:
You see, by virtue of this list, I find it it a little difficult to include both of the genres that you are talking of, bassist. Even in the case of Steve Reich, there are already multiple recordings of many of his works, making it hard to include them on the list.
On the whole, when people buy 'classical' albums, they are buying the performance, not necessarily the work. Not to mention that few recordings in the classical world have really made such an impact as most pop albums in terms of distribution (with the exception of such standouts like Gershwin does Gershwin, etc.), but even then, it is just yet another performance of a work people frequently hear.
Which copy of Drumming should make the list, the Nonesuch version or the Cantaloupe version? Perhaps they deliberately avoided these because such arguments will inevitably arise. Very few 'classical' artists release albums with the intent of the album in mind (of course with exceptions, like Glass's Songs From Liquid Days), but if you ask most composers (at least those I know and have met), the recording is a secondary or tertiary concern.
That being said, 102, and I'm a little disappointed that they have John Zorn playing Ornette Coleman but no Ornette Coleman on the list.
a pack of wolves:
--- Quote from: Bastardous Bassist on 03 Nov 2009, 07:32 ---Or maybe the definition is outdated, not the use?
--- End quote ---
Very possibly. What would the usage be then?
From what you're saying there really is a large disparity between not just concert and pop music but the people who listen to them, if the attendees of live performances are so starkly different in age and appearance. Bridging the gap between the two is tricky without knowing exactly what constitutes art or concert music. How about Glenn Branca? I've seen him perform at a pop festival and he's got a huge amount of links to underground NY rock music, or would he be considered primarily a pop composer?
Bastardous Bassist:
In the same vein, I'd bet that a lot of the people who listen to art music don't care for the jazz that is considered art music. Also, a bit of crossover is not really the same as being aware of the tradition, which I'm sure Glenn is. He's one of those people who could help bridge the gap between the two traditions. With pop music, especially as post-modern as we are today, people are obsessed with the past and the tradition (not trying to recreate it, but really trying to fit what we write today into what has already been written). Why can't that include art music as well? It would help avoid "inventing the wheel" multiple times. And it would introduce more people to awesome music, possibly saving the contemporary art music scene from extinction (both with the influx of new composers and performers as well as new fans).
--- Quote from: IronOxide on 03 Nov 2009, 07:54 ---You see, by virtue of this list, I find it it a little difficult to include both of the genres that you are talking of, bassist. Even in the case of Steve Reich, there are already multiple recordings of many of his works, making it hard to include them on the list.
On the whole, when people buy 'classical' albums, they are buying the performance, not necessarily the work. Not to mention that few recordings in the classical world have really made such an impact as most pop albums in terms of distribution (with the exception of such standouts like Gershwin does Gershwin, etc.), but even then, it is just yet another performance of a work people frequently hear.
Which copy of Drumming should make the list, the Nonesuch version or the Cantaloupe version? Perhaps they deliberately avoided these because such arguments will inevitably arise. Very few 'classical' artists release albums with the intent of the album in mind (of course with exceptions, like Glass's Songs From Liquid Days), but if you ask most composers (at least those I know and have met), the recording is a secondary or tertiary concern.
That being said, 102, and I'm a little disappointed that they have John Zorn playing Ornette Coleman but no Ornette Coleman on the list.
--- End quote ---
...........You really did just negate the first half of your argument with that last sentence. Clearly, he put in an album of somebody performing work that was not written by him without putting in the original artist because he thought Zorn's performance was better. Also, if you consider performers as concert music artists, then I'd say a number of them put out albums intended to be albums. The list also includes Ella Fitzgerald performing Gershwin's music. As such, the argument that the composers don't consider recordings generally falls flat, because Gershwin didn't consider recordings as primary. So, this list has precedent against both of those points, which I had previously thought about too.
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