Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT

WCDT - 6-10 September 2010 (1746-1750)

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Buggman:

--- Quote from: Fenriswolf on 08 Sep 2010, 01:37 ---
Yeah, as someone who is insecure in a very different way to Dora (no going off over stupid things, just waking my partner up in the middle of the night to make him re-iterate that he does want to be with me, even though I'm mental), I can tell you someone looking like Dora does in the first panel is in quite a lot of pain, and there is no need to be a wanker on top of it.
--- End quote ---

Gotta agree with you there.  My wife has similar insecurity issues.  Every time we have a fight, she becomes terrified that I'm going to become fed up and leave her.  The cool-down of every fight, therefore, must include me reassuring her that I love her and being calm and gentle with her, or else she'll spend the whole night awake and freaked out.  It's actually been good for my growth as a person, as I'm normally very aggressive and brusque and my wife's insecurities mean I'm having to learn to be more sensitive.

But yeah, coming in still mad at someone with insecurity issues after you've cooled down from the initial fight?  Not a great idea.  Not if you want the relationship to last or the person to heal.

Shalom.

Moxie:

--- Quote from: raoullefere on 08 Sep 2010, 00:21 ---The comic I read:

Marten knows Dora is remorseful because he can see her sitting on the couch, curled up into almost a fetal position and looking doleful when he walks in....Also, he might have a clue by her asking "Are you gonna break up with me?" That's an admission of guilt and more—it puts Marten in the driver's seat, because he gets to decide what happens. That's submission, folks....Then Dora apologizes, and Marten accepts—more submission....Marten accepts—that's what 'it's okay' means—and immediately attaches a condition for continuing the relationship. Then Dora further acknowledges she was wrong by asking if Marten is 'mad' at her. This is an admission that Dora thinks Marten has a right to be angry, and perhaps that why he's not mad is nowhere near as important as the fact that he's not. That's enough for now.....At the same time, he's showing Dora how unlike those other assholes he truly is. An Alpha-Goth Grade-A asshole, I'm guessing, would need a grovel...
--- End quote ---


Raoullefere, you posted a theory in last week's thread that I really agreed with - namely, Dora is a master of the self-fulfilling prophesy. Relationship-wise, she sets herself up to fail, deals with a crappy relationship (while further lowering her self-esteem), and then watches as the relationship fails (presumably this involves being dumped by the guy). You pointed out that she started this relationship with Marten with the same idea in mind (because Marten was obviously attracted to Faye)...but then Marten was different. And now she doesn't know what to do, so she chooses to lash out in a preemptive "hurt them before they hurt me" fashion.

I really like that theory. I also think it really fits in neatly with what Sven told us about Dora's dating history. And if that ends up being right, that's why I'm bothered by her in today's comic.

The whole thing reeked of her expectations. I have no doubt that Faye's comment sparked something in Dora (like the realization that now the relationship might be ending, and Dora really doesn't want it to end) and so she's sitting there, waiting for Marten to come home so that the other shoe can drop and he'll break up with her and she just move on with her life, just like she was expecting.

I read her dialog completely different. It wasn't submission to me, it was resignation. She started off the conversation by flat-out asking if Marten was gonna break up with her - she expected it. When he told her no, she immediately apologized. To me, this was her trying to salvage the relationship, but she still can't believe Marten's not gonna get mad at her, or do something to her, or whatever - she has to verify again that he's not mad at her. His behavior is not what she expected.

Unfortunately, I also don't think Dora was really hearing what he was saying ("we need to fix this"/"you should have listened"). I don't think she really heard that because she was too wrapped up in her own unhappiness/expectations/whatever. Marten's honesty is something she finally heard - and I really hope she appreciates that in him, timing or no - but I think she focused in a bit more there because she was expecting to hear something...more there, maybe.

I think she keeps looking for signs that Marten is like those other guys, and she keeps not getting them, and so she has to imagine them because she can't fathom that there are guys out there who would treat her much better than past boyfriends. I think that the way tonight's conversation went, it was about Dora's expecting that sort of behavior from Marten and not getting it, and not really listening to what he was saying - at first.
I can see Marten thinking there's some resolution from this conversation, but I'm not convinced there is on Dora's side. Yet.

Border Reiver:
There is a time in the disagreement with the SO where you simply have to say the words so that things are on the table.  Then you get the opportunity to reflect on what you've said and done.

After that you've got to reaffirm that the words are there, what it means and then look at how you're actually gonna do it.

That isn't going to happen when you're mad, nor is it reasonable to expect a very abrupt personality shift.  Working through problems is most definitely not a case of going "Dammit, that was the problem, now I've got it solved and it will never happen again!"  Magical thinking isn't helpful, and the work needed to work through a signifigant psychological issue is certainly not going to happen in the space of the couple of hours that the last few strips have covered, or by one person's unilateral action.

IanClark:

--- Quote from: Moxie on 08 Sep 2010, 10:37 ---I read her dialog completely different. It wasn't submission to me, it was resignation. She started off the conversation by flat-out asking if Marten was gonna break up with her - she expected it. When he told her no, she immediately apologized. To me, this was her trying to salvage the relationship, but she still can't believe Marten's not gonna get mad at her, or do something to her, or whatever - she has to verify again that he's not mad at her. His behavior is not what she expected.

--- End quote ---

That's one way to look at it, but on the other hand, examine all of the people on this forum saying he should break up with her. Even though I think that sentiment is somewhat unrealistic and only a little bit cruel, it is a sentiment that is held by rational people. Dora thinking that Marten's going to break up with her isn't necessarily because of her past boyfriends, it could just as easily (I'd argue more easily) be because she realizes that she actually did do something horrible and that if Marten was himself in a particularly irrational mood (as he might've been had he not run into Sven) he might actually break up with her over this. Plus, Faye did directly imply that Dora might have already fucked up the relationship. I think Dora's expectations in this case are self-reflective. I used to date a girl who in situations like this would usually say something along the lines of "I'd break up with me." I think that's what Dora's doing.


--- Quote ---Unfortunately, I also don't think Dora was really hearing what he was saying ("we need to fix this"/"you should have listened"). I don't think she really heard that because she was too wrapped up in her own unhappiness/expectations/whatever. Marten's honesty is something she finally heard - and I really hope she appreciates that in him, timing or no - but I think she focused in a bit more there because she was expecting to hear something...more there, maybe.
--- End quote ---

Her last line included the phrase "If I'm going to work on being a crazy bitch". I think that after Faye yelling at her, she's probably already become completely aware that she's going to have to work on her jealousy issues, and that's why she's not reacting to that part in particular. The only parts of the entire conversation that she hasn't had in her own head a million times already are the part where Marten's not mad and the part where he's wearing Faye's pants. Admittedly, it would probably be wise of her to say something along the lines of "I know I have to work on my issues and I'm going to before it tears us apart", but I think that she was so surprised at Marten's lack of anger that it dominated her immediate mind at the moment. It's not that she's not thinking it, it's just that it's not the first thing that comes out of her mouth.


--- Quote ---I think she keeps looking for signs that Marten is like those other guys, and she keeps not getting them, and so she has to imagine them because she can't fathom that there are guys out there who would treat her much better than past boyfriends. I think that the way tonight's conversation went, it was about Dora's expecting that sort of behavior from Marten and not getting it, and not really listening to what he was saying - at first.
--- End quote ---

I think the only time she does that is reflexively, like when she saw Marten and Faye in their underwear. Her mind immediately went to "I've seen this before." She has a habit of jumping to conclusions but in order for the relationship to have lasted this long, the logical part of her brain must actually believe that Marten is different. She's speaking from that part of her brain now, and a guy breaking up with her over something she did which was horrible but probably not horrible enough to break up with her over is kind of way down the list of bad things guys have done with her when you compare it to being cheated on or being treated like shit. Consider that if her exes were as bad as Sven says, more than a few of them probably would have hit her in a situation like this. She's not flinching, she's not wincing. She's not expecting Marten to break up with her because she thinks he's like the others, she's expecting him to break up with her because she thinks it would be justified.

Moxie:

--- Quote from: IanClark on 08 Sep 2010, 11:48 ---I think Dora's expectations in this case are self-reflective. I used to date a girl who in situations like this would usually say something along the lines of "I'd break up with me." I think that's what Dora's doing....
...She's not expecting Marten to break up with her because she thinks he's like the others, she's expecting him to break up with her because she thinks it would be justified.
--- End quote ---

Snipping a bit to just focus on these two parts. I very strongly feel that Dora's still within the scope of her self-fulfilling prophesy.

If in the past she's had manipulative guys cheat on her and then convince her it's her fault they just had to do it, I'm quite certain that would stick with a person. So, if Dora's been half-expecting Marten to break up with her (probably because of Faye), then it stands to follow that she'd see him reacting the way her exes have reacted in the past - she's half trying to guide him down that path because, as far as she knows, it's the only path there is.
That's not to say that Marten won't be a help to her, because I think he will be, it's just that Dora isn't entirely able to hear what he's saying to her because she herself isn't there yet. She is still expecting the worst of the situation because that's all she's been conditioned for.

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