Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
WCDT - 6-10 September 2010 (1746-1750)
pwhodges:
--- Quote from: Odin on 09 Sep 2010, 04:02 ---Martin and Dora are toxic people
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You could try spelling Marten's name right, for a start - though that wouldn't make your suggestions any more convincing.
Graphite:
--- Quote from: Lost Coastlines on 09 Sep 2010, 04:13 ---On the first point, the differences are really less than one might expect. Also, the "assertive tone as a defense mechanism" idea is kind of absurd; aggressive perhaps, but not to the abuser or perceived abuser (in this case Marten).
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Granted, it's a rarer response, but I've internet-known a few people who've developed that defense post-abuse. I do agree with you that we don't have much reason to presume abuse over mere awfulness, though.
Not even going to acknowledge the ridiculousness of calling Marten toxic. Unless, Odin, you're suggesting that Faye's friends are "holding her back" by keeping her within the world of Coffee of Doom, and hence in a job that doesn't match her skills and talents. In which case, we've already seen Dora try to encourage Faye to explore the lucrative possibilities of her sculpture and design gifts, and Marten's a generally supportive and caring friend. If/when Faye's ready to move on to a different job, she can still retain the friendship of the whole group, and I'd bet they'd be happy for her. Being a comfortable social group which just happens to be populated by individuals with their own issues and not incredibly prestigious jobs does not a toxic environment make, I'm afraid.
Tergon:
I honestly feel kind of sorry for some of the folks here who see this and say, "Gah! A negative response! And we saw a few others before this! Clearly they should break up now because they are all horrible bastards!"
I'm assuming - maybe foolishly - that they're serious and not just trolling. In which case they honestly believe that if you love someone, you never ever ever fight. And if you do fight, then it's not worth carrying on a relationship. Maybe it's a learned response, from an ex-boyfriend or -girlfriend? Or they learned it from their own parents who split up over a couple of trivial arguments? If so, I really do feel sorry for them, because they are never going to have a healthy relationship.
People, good kind loving people who care about each other, fight. They do it all the time, for the stupidest reasons. And these are two fictional characters who are also fighting, and the reason they are doing it is NOT stupid.
I have no idea who first said that the hardest thing in the world is loving someone. Christ knows it's been said by a thousand people since then. But it is very true. If you love someone you love them even when they piss you off, and then when you make up, you love them more. That's how relationships that matter really work. And if you give the slightest shit about the person you're with, if you love them, then you fucking well try to make it work by loving them even when you fight. What you don't do, not ever, is cut and run at the first sign of a fight.
Maybe the people who think that a breakup in QC is the right choice are just trolling and they don't believe it. I hope so, for their sakes. Because if not... that's just truly sad.
EDIT:
Also, reading that a few people have latched onto the "abusive" aspect of Dora's past relationships... I don't know if you're taking that from what I said above (probably not and I'm just self-obsessed, but anyway), but I don't think abusive has to mean that Dora's ex-boyfriends beat her or called her names or verbally roasted her every chance they got. In extreme forms, for damn sure that's what it means. But if someone throws their heart at you and you just ignore it by cheating on them, treating them like shit and otherwise not deserving the love they give you, and if that experience damages them later in life, then I'd call that abusive.
Maybe it's too strong a word, but in that case I'd call it inaccurate, not wrong. Abuse is abuse, no matter what flavour.
Odin:
--- Quote from: zagraf on 09 Sep 2010, 04:26 ---Oh for Christ's sake. Marten, of all the characters, a "toxic" person. Dora needing to be dumped by "wussy" Marten. What's next, calling Hanners a crybaby attention-getter who should toss out her pills and stop seeing a "head-shrinker?"
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If someone behaved in the real world the way Marten has behaved through the entirety of his arc in the QC comic, yes, he'd be a toxic person to be in a relationship with (because he is incapable of adult behavior, as he has repeatedly shown everyone reading the comic for pretty much ever). He is the quintessential "clingy boyfriend/doormat" and the only thing that has kept him from being shown as the abusive boyfriend type Dora has apparently dated until now is that he hasn't had the opportunity (because he's been white-knighting Faye for so many years before hooking up with Dora).
--- Quote ---To them I say: turn off your PC, go outside and meet people. Take a class. Volunteer for a non-profit cause. Hang around bookstores or jazz cafes. Get to know human beings in all their wonderful, frustrating, colourful, exhilirating, exhausting diversity. And then see if you're so damn sure about who is or isn't "toxic" or "wussy" or whatever neat little boxes you so cavalierly put people in.
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Take your own advice, you sure are getting wound up about someone criticizing the personalities of characters you've become way too attached to for someone that suggests other people do those things.
--- Quote from: pwhodges on 09 Sep 2010, 04:35 ---
--- Quote from: Odin on 09 Sep 2010, 04:02 ---Martin and Dora are toxic people
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You could try spelling Marten's name right, for a start - though that wouldn't make your suggestions any more convincing.
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Blow me, I mentally spell the name correctly in spite of Jeph naming the character after a relative of the weasel. Actually, thanks for that, I doubt Jeph choosing that spelling of the name is a coincidence.
--- Quote from: Graphite on 09 Sep 2010, 04:36 ---Not even going to acknowledge the ridiculousness of calling Marten toxic. Unless, Odin, you're suggesting that Faye's friends are "holding her back" by keeping her within the world of Coffee of Doom, and hence in a job that doesn't match her skills and talents. In which case, we've already seen Dora try to encourage Faye to explore the lucrative possibilities of her sculpture and design gifts, and Marten's a generally supportive and caring friend. If/when Faye's ready to move on to a different job, she can still retain the friendship of the whole group, and I'd bet they'd be happy for her. Being a comfortable social group which just happens to be populated by individuals with their own issues and not incredibly prestigious jobs does not a toxic environment make, I'm afraid.
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Omitting Faye from my earlier listing of characters that I think are toxic people doesn't mean I think she isn't also a toxic person.
Hell, if I were to go through and list the shit going on with the characters in the QC-verse, I might as well truncate it to: They all need serious therapy.
"Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post." Edit:
--- Quote from: Tergon on 09 Sep 2010, 05:01 ---I honestly feel kind of sorry for some of the folks here who see this and say, "Gah! A negative response! And we saw a few others before this! Clearly they should break up now because they are all horrible bastards!"
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It actually has more to do with them having a history of negativity pretty much throughout the history of this comic, from the very beginning. Mentally healthy adults do not take pleasure in abusing their friends like the cast of QC does on a regular basis (with very few interludes of rationality and apologizing later when even by QC standards someone crosses the line).
--- Quote ---I'm assuming - maybe foolishly - that they're serious and not just trolling. In which case they honestly believe that if you love someone, you never ever ever fight. And if you do fight, then it's not worth carrying on a relationship. Maybe it's a learned response, from an ex-boyfriend or -girlfriend? Or they learned it from their own parents who split up over a couple of trivial arguments? If so, I really do feel sorry for them, because they are never going to have a healthy relationship.
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Life is too short to spend the majority of it fighting to save a failing relationship given the absolute truth that the person you are with is not a unique snowflake and you can always find someone better (if you yourself are worth better).
--- Quote ---People, good kind loving people who care about each other, fight. They do it all the time, for the stupidest reasons. And these are two fictional characters who are also fighting, and the reason they are doing it is NOT stupid.
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The reasoning isn't stupid, but the method of expression damn sure is.
--- Quote ---I have no idea who first said that the hardest thing in the world is loving someone. Christ knows it's been said by a thousand people since then. But it is very true. If you love someone you love them even when they piss you off, and then when you make up, you love them more. That's how relationships that matter really work. And if you give the slightest shit about the person you're with, if you love them, then you fucking well try to make it work by loving them even when you fight. What you don't do, not ever, is cut and run at the first sign of a fight.
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Meanwhile, if you're inclination is to leave the relationship, that should be a pretty good indication that you don't love them, right? Why stay with someone you don't love?
If you have to convince yourself that you love someone, you don't love them, you should break up and move on.
Karilyn:
--- Quote from: Lost Coastlines on 09 Sep 2010, 04:13 ---
--- Quote from: Graphite on 09 Sep 2010, 03:32 ---
--- Quote from: Lost Coastlines on 09 Sep 2010, 03:25 --- She's a pretty assertive person on a regular basis. Not really abuse victim behavior or temperament.
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These old boyfriends were probably just goth versions of pre-Faye Sven who viewed her as a notch in their bedposts rather than an actual partner. Sad, but not abuse.
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Unless Dora's had some serious counseling (which she has seemed to indicate that she has not) I will say that I don't think it's plausible that these past boyfriends were really abusive.
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say you don't understand that there are types of abuse that doesn't involve physically hitting a person.
It actually scares me a little, cause that's sorta the way that abusers talk "Oh, it's not abuse, because I didn't hit her, I just call her a stupid bitch because she is one." "Oh it isn't abuse because I didn't hit her hard enough for her to get a bruise" "Oh it isn't abuse because she stays with me and if I was abusing her she'd leave" or whatever other excuse people come up with as to why their particular brand of abuse isn't actually abuse. Hell, if you watch TV and the News enough, you'll see men who beat a woman TO DEATH, and they are going to jail for the rest of their lives, and they still insist that their beating their wife to death wasn't "really abuse, because..."
Now I'm not saying necessarily that Dora's ex-boyfriends beat her, or verbally abused her. But treating someone as a vagina with a body attached to it is still abuse. You're devaluing them as a person as much as the standard abuser who calls someone a "worthless cunt" all the time.
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