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Yes.

15 (5%)

No, it's not the same.

14 (4.7%)

No, it's even worse.

25 (8.4%)

No, it means Dora's history.

30 (10.1%)

No, because it's going to end different.

19 (6.4%)

No, because there's emergency bourbon.

17 (5.7%)

UBMEOD!

34 (11.4%)

Oh heck, who am I kidding?

4 (1.3%)

(sniff) No, I've just got (sniff) allergies...

31 (10.4%)

This thread is gonna hit 40 pages by tomorrow, isn't it?

109 (36.6%)

Total Members Voted: 237

[Murphoid]

I am very interested in this storyline, and I think a Dora / Martin split would be very interesting.  Also watching who the other characters side with would be quite neat.  Who would Faye side with?   I wonder if the break up would cause problems with her relationship, as she is kinda fragile - psyche wise.

You know, that's an interesting point. Over the underwear incident Faye sided with Marten and called Dora out on her inappropriate behavior. But Faye was there, and she knew what happened. Here, we have Dora going off on an idea Faye had. Would Faye even take sides at all? Would she call Dora out on her inappropriate actions, as well as tell Marten he needs to be more aggressive whenever something matters to him?

It's been hard for me to judge the motivations of Faye and Dora recently also.  When Hanners wanted her imaginary date they went into full blown parental mode yet when Marigold was in the same situation with Tai, they thought it was funny.   It will indeed be very very interesting to see Faye's reaction.

[Sylette]

Speaking as someone who is about as sexually open as Dora (possibly more), this relationship probably isn't going to work out.  That being said, this fight won't be the last.  They aren't actually broken up yet-- Dora's probably going to talk to Sven and realize that she's got a lot of issues but she'll still want Marten at her side.  And judging by Marten's expression in the last panel, he'll be fine with that.  Dora will keep trying to get herself under control, but they'll still have fights occasionally.  Finally, after several months of beating a dead horse, a friendly, non-traumatic break-up will happen involving the realization that they are better off friends and then a sweet parting of ways.

Dora doesn't understand Marten's sexual inhibition, and she's probably never going to.  Sure, she can maybe kinda-sorta look at it logically and deduce that perhaps Marten's upbringing has messed with his head a little.  But she won't truly understand that.  Most sexually open people don't.  I mean, they accept that people like Marten exist, sure...but on some level they feel like those people can just be shaken up a bit, and all will be right with the world (see: Rocky Horror Picture Show).

Dora needs someone like my boyfriend...an SO that laughingly encourages her to rub chocolate all over her breasts and wave them in the face of a female, bi-curious roommate until said roommate licks them.

Someone like Tai, perhaps? :3

Oh, and Marten and Faye need to make teh kisses.  

[Skewbrow]

That said, I probably think we're forgetting that Dora has been under a lot of stress lately. The Coffee of Doom wasn't doing so well, then she overworked herself (60 hours a week!), then she hired two not-really-perfect employees (I am under the impression that Penelopes hiring was a lot less difficult), then she got all worked up over the Hanners/Sven-Thing (whether she was right or not is not the question, it added stress). She's bottling it up, too, and letting it out on Marten.

I've been getting similar vibes. Partly from personal experience. Professionally Dora has been bearing quite a heavy load, and sooner or later that spills on your loved ones. After the underwear incident I wanted to suggest that Dora and Marten should take a honeymoon vacation together, but I was missing out on my activation e-mail. I'm afraid now they may need something else.

Then again. Could Dora trust Faye enough to leave her in charge for a week? May be? After all, she is the most experienced barista (other than Dora herself), and should have picked up most of the things by now.

[eyosgkxb]

Oh, and Marten and Faye need to make teh kisses.  

Considering everything that has happened so far that would be crazy drama. I don't know about any of that other stuff.

[Wiregeek]

Dora doesn't understand Marten's sexual inhibition, and she's probably never going to.  Sure, she can maybe kinda-sorta look at it logically and deduce that perhaps Marten's upbringing has messed with his head a little.  But she won't truly understand that.  Most sexually open people don't.  I mean, they accept that people like Marten exist, sure...but on some level they feel like those people can just be shaken up a bit, and all will be right with the world (see: Rocky Horror Picture Show).

Wow.

Just..  wow.

The sheer arrogance implicit in your post is awe inspiring.

I though I was king shit of self-absorbed mountain, but you, just..   wow.

I bow to you.

[Coco]

Hey! No Machiavellian thread jacking!    LOL.

And it would have worked if not for you meddling kids!

Yeahhhh, you do realise that the interpretation of "The prince" as satire is a really recent invention? Considering that there had already been a book published in England, refuting Mach's points before "The prince" had even been translated, you sort of understand why people might not see it as satire.

Heh, well I was just having some fun feeling sympathy for authors in the internet age. Maybe I'll refer to Shakespeare's fart jokes in the future.

In any event, I may have to block myself from this site or I'll never get any work done ever again.

[Sylette]

Wow.

Just..  wow.

The sheer arrogance implicit in your post is awe inspiring.

I though I was king shit of self-absorbed mountain, but you, just..   wow.

I bow to you.

I know I'm arrogant.  But I'm just trying to be honest, really :3

@eyosgkxb-- I know it would make crazy drama...I just like to dream.  Sigh.

[AnAverageWriter]

I know I'm arrogant.  But I'm just trying to be honest, really :3

Honest about what?

Your very first (and so far, the only) on topic post here consisted of a baffling assumption that somehow, the problems occurring between Dora and Marten have something to do with... Marten being "inhibited" in some way?

What the hell?

How in the world did you COME to that conclusion?

What, in fact, does "inhibition" have to do with anything here?

[eyosgkxb]

Wow.

Just..  wow.

The sheer arrogance implicit in your post is awe inspiring.

I though I was king shit of self-absorbed mountain, but you, just..   wow.

I bow to you.

I know I'm arrogant.  But I'm just trying to be honest, really :3

@eyosgkxb-- I know it would make crazy drama...I just like to dream.  Sigh.

I think what the other poster was getting at was your arrogance has no effect on the discussion of the current strip, it seemed very self absorbed to apply anything that had happened to you as an explanation/justification for anything that may happen in any strip.

I'm a Hanners/Anyone fan myself, I'd like to see her grow into more than comic relief.

[Prince of Space]

Blame does nothing useful? Aside from keep the dispute on point? This is a dispute isn't it? I see 2 people with hurt feelings by what cause? So the cause here isn't one of the parties involved is what you are saying?

I hate to sound like a "Troll" as you put it, but please clarify what you even meant in that post?
Well, at the end of the day, Marten is right in this situation. 

Blame is a tool used to make the blame-er like he or she is in the right.  It's just not something to use in a level headed discussion or a relationship dispute.

For instance: Let's say I looked at your diary and found out you were screwing my boyfriend.  I break up with said boyfriend.  Then I blame you.  We get into an argument.  You blame me for reading your diary in the first place or for being neglectful of my boyfriend.  I blame you for betraying me.  Can you tell me how blame would make this go any better?  It certainly wouldn't keep us 'on point'.  We'd both have different viewpoints (our own) and would probably be unable to empathize with the other.

The only thing that would really matter is that it happened.  Now how are you going to deal with it? 

If two people want to make a relationship work, you talk things out.  You try and find out why someone did something.  Blaming someone else isn't going to change the fact that it happened.  Knowing the root of the problem is helpful(hint: the root of the problem isn't watching his porn), but not unless you're trying to figure out a solution. 

[Kazukagii]

God, suddenly I have a migraine from reading this thread.  

I'm out, see all you chaps tonight when Jeph invariably turns the drama up from 11 to 12 (Or has a sudden Pintsize interlude, either way works for me)

[raoullefere]

Hmm, apropos of nothing, reading this forum must be for Jeph what it would be like for a long dead writer or philosopher to sit in on a 100 level english or philosophy course. Misinterpretations, assumptions, wild guesses etc. The link to comic 335 made me think of it. I mean, poor Machiavelli wrote a satire going so far as addressing it as a love letter to the family that had imprisoned and tortured him for his egalitarian ideals and now his name is synonymous with evil machinations and tyranny. Most people don't recognize it as satire at all! At least Machiavelli was long dead before his work was misappropriated. Jeph posts a comic and minutes later there is hyper-analysis of his every pen stroke and speech bubble. I think after work I'm going to have a drink in honor of all the authors of the world living in an age of immediate feedback.

Such is the wonder of the Internets. At the same time, think of poor William Blake. Published a couple of books of poems that contain one, if not two of the most anthologized pieces ever in English lit ("The Tyger" and possibly "The Lamb"), and yet wilst he was alive, hardly anyone read them. Blake may well have been fine with that, but would he really have shit his britches if people had started responding to his words before he kicked the bucket?

And Poe. Edgar Poe, I suspect, would have loved the Internet.

[Wiregeek]

Wow.

Just..  wow.

The sheer arrogance implicit in your post is awe inspiring.

I though I was king shit of self-absorbed mountain, but you, just..   wow.

I bow to you.

I know I'm arrogant.  But I'm just trying to be honest, really :3

@eyosgkxb-- I know it would make crazy drama...I just like to dream.  Sigh.

I think what the other poster was getting at was your arrogance has no effect on the discussion of the current strip, it seemed very self absorbed to apply anything that had happened to you as an explanation/justification for anything that may happen in any strip.

I'm a Hanners/Anyone fan myself, I'd like to see her grow into more than comic relief.

No, more the arrogance and the removal of agency from Marten bundled into her post. God forbid the emo little fuck NOT be completely open and exhibistionistic, he obviously doesn't have any rights as a person to define his own boundaries..   *grumble*

[Border Reiver]

Hmm, apropos of nothing, reading this forum must be for Jeph what it would be like for a long dead writer or philosopher to sit in on a 100 level english or philosophy course. Misinterpretations, assumptions, wild guesses etc. The link to comic 335 made me think of it. I mean, poor Machiavelli wrote a satire going so far as addressing it as a love letter to the family that had imprisoned and tortured him for his egalitarian ideals and now his name is synonymous with evil machinations and tyranny. Most people don't recognize it as satire at all! At least Machiavelli was long dead before his work was misappropriated. Jeph posts a comic and minutes later there is hyper-analysis of his every pen stroke and speech bubble. I think after work I'm going to have a drink in honor of all the authors of the world living in an age of immediate feedback.

Such is the wonder of the Internets. At the same time, think of poor William Blake. Published a couple of books of poems that contain one, if not two of the most anthologized pieces ever in English lit ("The Tyger" and possibly "The Lamb"), and yet wilst he was alive, hardly anyone read them. Blake may well have been fine with that, but would he really have shit his britches if people had started responding to his words before he kicked the bucket?

And Poe. Edgar Poe, I suspect, would have loved the Internet.

And we'd probably still be reading new stuff from Lovecraft or Howard, if they enjoyed the validation of their work.  Or nto.

[lolbutts]

Blame does nothing useful? Aside from keep the dispute on point? This is a dispute isn't it? I see 2 people with hurt feelings by what cause? So the cause here isn't one of the parties involved is what you are saying?

I hate to sound like a "Troll" as you put it, but please clarify what you even meant in that post?
Well, at the end of the day, Marten is right in this situation. 

Blame is a tool used to make the blame-er like he or she is in the right.  It's just not something to use in a level headed discussion or a relationship dispute.

For instance: Let's say I looked at your diary and found out you were screwing my boyfriend.  I break up with said boyfriend.  Then I blame you.  We get into an argument.  You blame me for reading your diary in the first place or for being neglectful of my boyfriend.  I blame you for betraying me.  Can you tell me how blame would make this go any better?  It certainly wouldn't keep us 'on point'.  We'd both have different viewpoints (our own) and would probably be unable to empathize with the other.

The only thing that would really matter is that it happened.  Now how are you going to deal with it? 

If two people want to make a relationship work, you talk things out.  You try and find out why someone did something.  Blaming someone else isn't going to change the fact that it happened.  Knowing the root of the problem is helpful(hint: the root of the problem isn't watching his porn), but not unless you're trying to figure out a solution. 

Seeing as everyone else is delurking, I thought I'd sign up purely to ask you to stob babbling like a Dr. Phil after school special.

"What's the use of blame?"

Gee, I don't know, ask the motherfucking justice system.

[Wiregeek]

Seeing as everyone else is delurking, I thought I'd sign up purely to ask you to stob babbling like a Dr. Phil after school special.

"What's the use of blame?"

Gee, I don't know, ask the motherfucking justice system.

Pfft, the justice system never fucked my mother.


If nothing else, this plot is sure driving traffic to the forum.

[eyosgkxb]

Blame does nothing useful? Aside from keep the dispute on point? This is a dispute isn't it? I see 2 people with hurt feelings by what cause? So the cause here isn't one of the parties involved is what you are saying?

I hate to sound like a "Troll" as you put it, but please clarify what you even meant in that post?
Well, at the end of the day, Marten is right in this situation. 

Blame is a tool used to make the blame-er like he or she is in the right.  It's just not something to use in a level headed discussion or a relationship dispute.

For instance: Let's say I looked at your diary and found out you were screwing my boyfriend.  I break up with said boyfriend.  Then I blame you.  We get into an argument.  You blame me for reading your diary in the first place or for being neglectful of my boyfriend.  I blame you for betraying me.  Can you tell me how blame would make this go any better?  It certainly wouldn't keep us 'on point'.  We'd both have different viewpoints (our own) and would probably be unable to empathize with the other.

The only thing that would really matter is that it happened.  Now how are you going to deal with it? 

If two people want to make a relationship work, you talk things out.  You try and find out why someone did something.  Blaming someone else isn't going to change the fact that it happened.  Knowing the root of the problem is helpful(hint: the root of the problem isn't watching his porn), but not unless you're trying to figure out a solution. 

Let me get this right, I cheat with your boyfriend, you guys break up and it doesn't matter that I'm to blame?

[Border Reiver]

They're still broken up, and blaming you didn't make it better, so now the other party is out a friend as well.

Not that you were a good friend, what with banging the BF and all

[IanClark]

Probably should've stayed lurking...

The reason finding who's to blame is useless in a scenario like this is because it doesn't answer any questions. We can conclude it's Dora, and so could all the characters in the comic, but where the fuck does that get anyone? Does it make a solution any more obvious? Only if you consider "DORA'S A STUPID BITCH AND SHE SHOULD BE ALONE FOREVER BECAUSE SHE'S STUPID AND A BITCH!" a solution. Which I don't. In fact, I don't even consider it an accurate statement.

Finding who's to blame should only go as far as figuring out who needs to take steps to fix it, not in terms of finding who to direct anger toward. Dora needs help to overcome the problems that are causing her to hurt herself and the people she loves. Full stop. That's the resolution. No sentencing need be delivered, no one need be doomed to another hundred years of solitude for their transgressions. The problem needs to be fixed, which means it needs to be addressed as "the problem", not "the list of reasons this reflects badly on Dora".

[eyosgkxb]

Probably should've stayed lurking...

The reason finding who's to blame is useless in a scenario like this is because it doesn't answer any questions. We can conclude it's Dora, and so could all the characters in the comic, but where the fuck does that get anyone? Does it make a solution any more obvious? Only if you consider "DORA'S A STUPID BITCH AND SHE SHOULD BE ALONE FOREVER BECAUSE SHE'S STUPID AND A BITCH!" a solution. Which I don't. In fact, I don't even consider it an accurate statement.

Finding who's to blame should only go as far as figuring out who needs to take steps to fix it, not in terms of finding who to direct anger toward. Dora needs help to overcome the problems that are causing her to hurt herself and the people she loves. Full stop. That's the resolution. No sentencing need be delivered, no one need be doomed to another hundred years of solitude for their transgressions. The problem needs to be fixed, which means it needs to be addressed as "the problem", not "the list of reasons this reflects badly on Dora".

How the duex is it useless, the point of application of blame is incase the accused refuses to accept it. Dora can't change who she is if she won't even realize that she's the one that started tthe problem in the first place. Dora is to blame and the only person responsiblee to change what brought her to this situation is Dora. I'm sure Marten or anyone else is no angel but what did he do to deserve any of what happened to him.

Its like your justifying rape because the victim had been intimate with the attacker in the past.

[LeeC]

I am very interested in this storyline, and I think a Dora / Martin split would be very interesting.  Also watching who the other characters side with would be quite neat.  Who would Faye side with?   I wonder if the break up would cause problems with her relationship, as she is kinda fragile - psyche wise.

You know, that's an interesting point. Over the underwear incident Faye sided with Marten and called Dora out on her inappropriate behavior. But Faye was there, and she knew what happened. Here, we have Dora going off on an idea Faye had. Would Faye even take sides at all? Would she call Dora out on her inappropriate actions, as well as tell Marten he needs to be more aggressive whenever something matters to him?

What idea did Faye have?

[Wiregeek]

I am very interested in this storyline, and I think a Dora / Martin split would be very interesting.  Also watching who the other characters side with would be quite neat.  Who would Faye side with?   I wonder if the break up would cause problems with her relationship, as she is kinda fragile - psyche wise.

You know, that's an interesting point. Over the underwear incident Faye sided with Marten and called Dora out on her inappropriate behavior. But Faye was there, and she knew what happened. Here, we have Dora going off on an idea Faye had. Would Faye even take sides at all? Would she call Dora out on her inappropriate actions, as well as tell Marten he needs to be more aggressive whenever something matters to him?

What idea did Faye have?

The whole 'lets look at Marten's porn' thing was Faye's idea.

[IanClark]

It depends if you equate blame with reasons the person being blamed is a horrible person. I'm not saying Dora's not to blame and I'm not saying Marten is responsible for any of her shit, what I'm saying is that discussing only blame steers the conversation in the direction of "who's the horrible person in all of this?" Instead, the related conversations actually make up the bulk of the issue. Why is Dora to blame? Is it because she has issues like Faye did for the first 1000 strips or so, or is it because she's just fundamentally horrible? For that matter, what specifically are her issues, how major are they and are they overcomeable? Is Dora more or less defined by her issues by this point or are they just a small part of her being that occasionally flare up and ruin everything?

Yes, Dora needs to realize she's the one to blame, but that revelation needs to come gently. A little less "fuck you" and a little more "please realize you're hurting the people around you".

[daryljfontaine]

Freud would absolutely love this comic forum, that's for sure.

Fixed that for you.

Also the comic is like a giant Rorschach blot for all of us to project our own issues with men! And ladies! And ladies who dress like men! onto Marten and Dora.  A therapist could sweep in here and have a field day, although they should only be paid at bulk rate for everyone who called Dora a bitch.

OVER 9000 TIMES THIS.  It is a testament to the far-reaching popularity of QC that the forum explodes in massive psychological projection every time Relationship Drama is portrayed in the strip.  It happens for a couple of other webcomics I frequent, but I think this one has the most active forums.

D

[jordinyc]

11 pages of posts????

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST!! IT'S ONLY TUESDAY!!

When I said there would be 12 pages of posts after Jeph put the page online, I was KIDDING!!!!

[tbones]

And we reached the 11th page!!!

How the duex is it useless, the point of application of blame is incase the accused refuses to accept it. Dora can't change who she is if she won't even realize that she's the one that started tthe problem in the first place. Dora is to blame and the only person responsiblee to change what brought her to this situation is Dora. I'm sure Marten or anyone else is no angel but what did he do to deserve any of what happened to him.

Its like your justifying rape because the victim had been intimate with the attacker in the past.

woa, take it easy dude... But to answer your question, Marten knows that Dora has couple issues, and he has done nothing about it. And that's what he did(or not did) to deserve that. being a pushover, not standing for himself, and not trying to resolve Dora's trust issues (assuming he wanted to be in the relation, that's what anyone would do) he changed nothing. He is guilty of in-action.

[JimmyMarshall]

I also created an account just to comment on this! Also, to use Psyduck 

I've never been this annoyed by a webcomic. I consider my day to be ruined, and since I was already rather grumpy it's not extra ruined.

Because I had a girlfriend that did exactly what Dora is doing now. That when SHE does something wrong, instead of feeling any sort of remorse, they accuse the person that they wronged of "guilting them" when they already feel bad about. Every argument I had with that girl ended with me feeling terrible and her wandering off because she turned every gripe I had back on me and made me feel bad about having any sort of feelings. And Marten's face in the last panel... that is all too familiar.

I vowed never to allow someone to do that to me again. And I want to smack Marten and tell him the same!

[enigma3d]

Wow.

Just..  wow.

The sheer arrogance implicit in your post is awe inspiring.

I though I was king shit of self-absorbed mountain, but you, just..   wow.

I bow to you.

I know I'm arrogant.  But I'm just trying to be honest, really :3

@eyosgkxb-- I know it would make crazy drama...I just like to dream.  Sigh.

I think what the other poster was getting at was your arrogance has no effect on the discussion of the current strip, it seemed very self absorbed to apply anything that had happened to you as an explanation/justification for anything that may happen in any strip.

I'm a Hanners/Anyone fan myself, I'd like to see her grow into more than comic relief.

No, more the arrogance and the removal of agency from Marten bundled into her post. God forbid the emo little fuck NOT be completely open and exhibistionistic, he obviously doesn't have any rights as a person to define his own boundaries..   *grumble*

I'm going to step up and try and defend sylette, because I think you're attributing levels to her post that she didn't intend. Not understanding or being able to grasp something about someone does not imply that they don't have the right to hold that position, only that it is so far removed from what they believe/feel/whatever that they can't grasp it beyond the intellectual. They know that someone holds those beliefs, but can't really grasp what that means in practice. I myself am like this in regards to physical contact, I have a hard time grasping that sometimes, people just don't want to be touched. I know I'm like that, and I try very hard to control it, but sometimes i forget myself, and I may have lost a very good friend over it recently .

I don't personally agree that Marten and Dora are that different as to be incompatible, but I think it is a little unfair to be so harsh to sylette. The human mind is a complicated construct, but it has its limits. When you get too far outside them, it can be very hard to grasp the true impact of the situation.

Also, hi, 'nother semi-long-time lurker registering now that the activation email issue has been fixed.

[jordinyc]

Next time I joke about this, I'm saying 941 pages, just to see what happens.

Honestly, how can anyone expect their post to be read by more than 2 people before it's "sage'd" 2 pages away. .. or are people ACTUALLY reading every single one of these hundreds and hundreds of posts?

[celticgeek]

When I said there would be 12 pages of posts after Jeph put the page online, I was KIDDING!!!!

Apparently not kidding, just psychic. 

[tbones]

Next time I joke about this, I'm saying 941 pages, just to see what happens.

Honestly, how can anyone expect their post to be read by more than 2 people before it's "sage'd" 2 pages away. .. or are people ACTUALLY reading every single one of these hundreds and hundreds of posts?

I'm gonna answer that very simply......
 

I also created an account just to comment on this! Also, to use Psyduck  

You can't get enough of this guy!!  

[Wiregeek]

Next time I joke about this, I'm saying 941 pages, just to see what happens.

Honestly, how can anyone expect their post to be read by more than 2 people before it's "sage'd" 2 pages away. .. or are people ACTUALLY reading every single one of these hundreds and hundreds of posts?

Some people still have an attention span. Throw away your remote control and re-learn how to read, it's OK.

[Mustakyy]

Probably should've stayed lurking...

The reason finding who's to blame is useless in a scenario like this is because it doesn't answer any questions. We can conclude it's Dora, and so could all the characters in the comic, but where the fuck does that get anyone? Does it make a solution any more obvious? Only if you consider "DORA'S A STUPID BITCH AND SHE SHOULD BE ALONE FOREVER BECAUSE SHE'S STUPID AND A BITCH!" a solution. Which I don't. In fact, I don't even consider it an accurate statement.

Finding who's to blame should only go as far as figuring out who needs to take steps to fix it, not in terms of finding who to direct anger toward. Dora needs help to overcome the problems that are causing her to hurt herself and the people she loves. Full stop. That's the resolution. No sentencing need be delivered, no one need be doomed to another hundred years of solitude for their transgressions. The problem needs to be fixed, which means it needs to be addressed as "the problem", not "the list of reasons this reflects badly on Dora".

This sums up the situation quite accurately. As some of the posters have pointed out, Dora and Marten both have their own insecurities (Dora more than Marten, but still..), which should be identified and fixed, if they want to have any future on their relationship. The keyword is, as said many times before, discussing, not pointing fingers who's to blame. It seems that for a change Dora admits being wrong (yes, i KNOW the bodylanguage isn't quite saying it, but i still think she means it), but the timing just couldn't be more off. One of the worst things in this kind of situations is to rush to action without letting yourself cool down a bit, because people CAN AND WILL be just as vengeful, petty and agressive as you can imagine, if given a chance to be.

As for asking, does the possible breakup make me sad? Yes it does, because despite their stormy nature of their relationship, think they complete each other. I find it kinda odd, that some people mistake "making an effort" to "being completely spineless". The easy way out would be the "screw this"-option, thou it wouldn't be like Marten to just give up, because even with all of the fighting, he genuinely seems to still love Dora. I am NOT approving the incident with private issues, that was DEAD wrong from Dora, but still, people do make mistakes now and then. They just have to ask themselves, is this worth it.


Hopefully my ramblings weren't too incoherent to read, i just had the feeling that i gotta express my opinion in this.

And skewbrow, goddamnit, now i got Placebo's Pure Morning stuck in my head nonstop, aaagh! 

(woah, a wall of replies hitted before me, i just gotta learn how to type faster {or think faster})

[eyosgkxb]

Next time I joke about this, I'm saying 941 pages, just to see what happens.

Honestly, how can anyone expect their post to be read by more than 2 people before it's "sage'd" 2 pages away. .. or are people ACTUALLY reading every single one of these hundreds and hundreds of posts?

Just the people engaged in arguments.

[Emperor Norton]

Honestly, how can anyone expect their post to be read by more than 2 people before it's "sage'd" 2 pages away. .. or are people ACTUALLY reading every single one of these hundreds and hundreds of posts?

I've read every post.

I have no idea whats wrong with me other than the being generally OCD.

As a comment, knowing who overstepped (who is to "blame") can be useful, but doesn't need to be dwelt upon, and doesn't need to be seen as the ONLY problem. People have to be responsible for their actions. How can they do that if they are never held accountable for any of it? (hence blamed).

That being said... trying to dole out blame while pissed is probably a horrible idea. They both needed a moment to compose themselves first. Part of identifying a problem is figuring out WHERE the problem came from, yes, why they acted that way is important, but first you have to identify the problem behavior in order to try and explain and deal with it. So this idea that blame is pointless is imo just ignorant.

@Wiregeek, that was kind of dickish man. Its a shit ton of reading, I did it, but I don't see anyone who doesn't have the urge to do the same as somehow deficit. Hell, I shouldn't be reading all of this. I have other things in my life I should be doing than reading crazed debates on fictional characters in a webcomic. Get your head out of your ass man.

[enigma3d]

Next time I joke about this, I'm saying 941 pages, just to see what happens.

Honestly, how can anyone expect their post to be read by more than 2 people before it's "sage'd" 2 pages away. .. or are people ACTUALLY reading every single one of these hundreds and hundreds of posts?

I did

Took me several hours, but I did it. I think I need a hug

[persiflager]

*tip-toes into forum*

Ignoring issues of right, wrong, blame, bitchiness etc for the moment.....

I don't think anyone really understands an argument until they've been on both sides. Dora knows how upsetting it is for your partner not to take your feelings seriously:

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1107

If this occurs to her, it could be a real lightbulb moment.

[zadojla]

6 pages of posts since I went to bed last night?!!  I can't keep up with this at work and keep my job.

I think I'll just lay low, and wait to see what Jeph makes happen next....

Signing off for this week,

zadojla

[Wiregeek]

@Wiregeek, that was kind of dickish man. Its a shit ton of reading, I did it, but I don't see anyone who doesn't have the urge to do the same as somehow deficit. Hell, I shouldn't be reading all of this. I have other things in my life I should be doing than reading crazed debates on fictional characters in a webcomic. Get your head out of your ass man.

tl;dr, amirite?

[innermoppet]

Dora doesn't understand Marten's sexual inhibition, and she's probably never going to.  Sure, she can maybe kinda-sorta look at it logically and deduce that perhaps Marten's upbringing has messed with his head a little.  But she won't truly understand that.  Most sexually open people don't.  I mean, they accept that people like Marten exist, sure...but on some level they feel like those people can just be shaken up a bit, and all will be right with the world (see: Rocky Horror Picture Show).

Wow.

Just..  wow.

The sheer arrogance implicit in your post is awe inspiring.

I though I was king shit of self-absorbed mountain, but you, just..   wow.

I bow to you.

I guess I don't understand why this comment was arrogant. Maybe I'm reading it "wrong" but I think Sylette made a pretty valid point about Dora not really being able to understand where Marten is coming from. I don't 100% agree with it but I definitely think it has merit. To be sexually inhibited or restrained depending on how you define it, is not a bad thing. It just is.  She's sexually open. He's less so. She may have a hard time really grasping a hold of that information. I'm a touchy feely person and I am always surprised when someone else is not.

[IanClark]

I guess I don't understand why this comment was arrogant. Maybe I'm reading it "wrong" but I think Sylette made a pretty valid point about Dora not really being able to understand where Marten is coming from. I don't 100% agree with it but I definitely think it has merit. To be sexually inhibited or restrained depending on how you define it, is not a bad thing. It just is.  She's sexually open. He's less so. She may have a hard time really grasping a hold of that information. I'm a touchy feely person and I am always surprised when someone else is not.

I don't think it was arrogant so much as just narrow-minded. Being one of the supposed "sexually open" people myself, I don't really expect other people to be more like me. I don't think my point of view is the only one you can hold re: boundaries and I would never try to inflict it on anyone else no matter how many times I force them to watch Rocky Horror (which I've done to every girlfriend I've ever had, by the way).

[Emperor Norton]

@Wiregeek, that was kind of dickish man. Its a shit ton of reading, I did it, but I don't see anyone who doesn't have the urge to do the same as somehow deficit. Hell, I shouldn't be reading all of this. I have other things in my life I should be doing than reading crazed debates on fictional characters in a webcomic. Get your head out of your ass man.

tl;dr, amirite?

So because you and I have time to read this, everyone else needs to take the time to do it? Surely none of them have lives. Like work, or school, or kids, or you know any other thing that might be important in life. But no, obviously anyone who doesn't have the time to read all this is just a lazy sloth watching the boobtube. I'm somehow amazed that you somehow equate reading this thread in its entirety as some kind of positive quality, other than crazy amounts of spare time.

[someone1074]

Is no one else surprised by this apparently widespread lack of empathy? I'm a pretty sexually open person, but I know damn well not to tread that area with certain others. Same goes for a number of different characteristics.

I thought knowing that others come from diverse backgrounds and have unique personalities was...relatively common sense.

EDIT: Should have heeded the reply warning. Guess others have caught that too.

[enigma3d]

I guess I don't understand why this comment was arrogant. Maybe I'm reading it "wrong" but I think Sylette made a pretty valid point about Dora not really being able to understand where Marten is coming from. I don't 100% agree with it but I definitely think it has merit. To be sexually inhibited or restrained depending on how you define it, is not a bad thing. It just is.  She's sexually open. He's less so. She may have a hard time really grasping a hold of that information. I'm a touchy feely person and I am always surprised when someone else is not.

I don't think it was arrogant so much as just narrow-minded. Being one of the supposed "sexually open" people myself, I don't really expect other people to be more like me. I don't think my point of view is the only one you can hold re: boundaries and I would never try to inflict it on anyone else no matter how many times I force them to watch Rocky Horror (which I've done to every girlfriend I've ever had, by the way).

It all comes down to experience. If you've never known anything else, it would be hard to grasp differences.

@Wiregeek, that was kind of dickish man. Its a shit ton of reading, I did it, but I don't see anyone who doesn't have the urge to do the same as somehow deficit. Hell, I shouldn't be reading all of this. I have other things in my life I should be doing than reading crazed debates on fictional characters in a webcomic. Get your head out of your ass man.

tl;dr, amirite?

So because you and I have time to read this, everyone else needs to take the time to do it? Surely none of them have lives. Like work, or school, or kids, or you know any other thing that might be important in life. But no, obviously anyone who doesn't have the time to read all this is just a lazy sloth watching the boobtube. I'm somehow amazed that you somehow equate reading this thread in its entirety as some kind of positive quality, other than crazy amounts of spare time.

^this.
@Wiregeek: I read it all, but that's because I'm an obsessive person with copious amounts of spare time. Considering that the thread only really got so large because so many people were offering an opinion, rather than a whole lot of discussion taking place, although there was a lot of that too, you really are being kind of a dick. Chill out, relax, life's too short.

[muffin_of_chaos]

As a comment, knowing who overstepped (who is to "blame") can be useful, but doesn't need to be dwelt upon, and doesn't need to be seen as the ONLY problem. People have to be responsible for their actions. How can they do that if they are never held accountable for any of it? (hence blamed).

Blame as an assignation of guilt is never really justified unless it's universally decided that people should feel certain ways, and in secular society there isn't the obligation to feel certain ways but merely to follow laws.  Such that the actor who is thought to be guilty is thought to have failed morally.
Most relationships are similar to secular society, in that interpretation of how one reacts feelings-wise to a given situation in a relationship is allowed to be fluid so that it can take into account many potential factors that an outside observer has little ability to judge.  Moreover, the outcome of said situations tend to have consequences that could not be predicted by the actors of the relationship.

Blame as an assignation of responsibility works, but other words or phrases might serve better that don't have connotations of moral failure or of consequences.  Like "responsible" or "caused by."

Dora's actions caused the situation, and Dora's thoughtlessness and Marten's inability to communicate clearly while distraught makes them both responsible for the escalation later.  But the blame associated with each one's actions is not clear-cut, as it isn't clear what exact damage has been caused or what exact mental processes took place to ensure that what did happen spiraled out of each's control.

[enigma3d]

As a comment, knowing who overstepped (who is to "blame") can be useful, but doesn't need to be dwelt upon, and doesn't need to be seen as the ONLY problem. People have to be responsible for their actions. How can they do that if they are never held accountable for any of it? (hence blamed).

Blame as an assignation of guilt is never really justified unless it's universally decided that people should feel certain ways, and in secular society there isn't the obligation to feel certain ways but merely to follow laws.  Such that the actor who is thought to be guilty is thought to have failed morally.
Most relationships are similar to secular society, in that interpretation of how one reacts feelings-wise to a given situation in a relationship is allowed to be fluid so that it can take into account many potential factors that an outside observer has little ability to judge.  Moreover, the outcome of said situations tend to have consequences that could not be predicted by the actors of the relationship.

Blame as an assignation of responsibility works, but other words or phrases might serve better that don't have connotations of moral failure or of consequences.  Like "responsible" or "caused by."

Dora's actions caused the situation, and Dora's thoughtlessness and Marten's inability to communicate clearly while distraught makes them both responsible for the escalation later.  But the blame associated with each one's actions is not clear-cut, as it isn't clear what exact damage has been caused or what exact mental processes took place to ensure that what did happen spiraled out of each's control.

I agree. The problem with assigning blame, is that people most of the time have perfectly good reasons, in their minds, for acting the way that they do. Its really hard to assign guilt when motivations seem justified, given the information that the person has access to at the time.

Understanding someone's situation is far better than condemning them for it.

[melly21]

I woke up at 6am this morning and the first thing I did was come back here and read the 5 pages of replies I missed :S  

= awesome!!!!

Plus I would be sad (but a little happy and relieved) if Marten and Dora broke up (have they broken up?) do I think they have been a perfect couple? No. Who is? But if they have indeed broken up then this could lead to some serious character development for the both of them, actually even if they haven't broken up I am hoping this story arc leads to some serious character development for both of them.

Thing is I don't really like Dora as a person, as a character I think she is freaking awesome, she brings in great drama and she seems to be the one who causes the most passionate debates and responses in the forum and between me and my mates that read QC.

I won't bother getting into the whole "Who's to blame" argument because everyone (mostly everyone) has made excellent points and I really, really have nothing of considerable importance to add to that discussion  

[westrim]

I should be getting all uppity and start quoting people to respond to in Marten's favor, but I just increased my understanding of the universe a little bit, so I'll sit this one out   . And all the other arguments that occur as we argue over things Jeph has already decided and will draw tomorrow/day after/sometime in the next week.

*glances at 11 pages* I'm glad I followed my advice, or I would have gotten nothing done.

[IanClark]

I'm going the opposite way. Because of this discussion, I'm getting tons of shit done. I'm writing an essay on the subject of blame from a philosophical standpoint as we speak for a daily column I write. Doesn't pay the bills but it gets my name out there.

[Emperor Norton]

As a comment, knowing who overstepped (who is to "blame") can be useful, but doesn't need to be dwelt upon, and doesn't need to be seen as the ONLY problem. People have to be responsible for their actions. How can they do that if they are never held accountable for any of it? (hence blamed).

Blame as an assignation of guilt is never really justified unless it's universally decided that people should feel certain ways, and in secular society there isn't the obligation to feel certain ways but merely to follow laws.  Such that the actor who is thought to be guilty is thought to have failed morally.
Most relationships are similar to secular society, in that interpretation of how one reacts feelings-wise to a given situation in a relationship is allowed to be fluid so that it can take into account many potential factors that an outside observer has little ability to judge.  Moreover, the outcome of said situations tend to have consequences that could not be predicted by the actors of the relationship.

Blame as an assignation of responsibility works, but other words or phrases might serve better that don't have connotations of moral failure or of consequences.  Like "responsible" or "caused by."

Dora's actions caused the situation, and Dora's thoughtlessness and Marten's inability to communicate clearly while distraught makes them both responsible for the escalation later.  But the blame associated with each one's actions is not clear-cut, as it isn't clear what exact damage has been caused or what exact mental processes took place to ensure that what did happen spiraled out of each's control.

I agree. The problem with assigning blame, is that people most of the time have perfectly good reasons, in their minds, for acting the way that they do. Its really hard to assign guilt when motivations seem justified, given the information that the person has access to at the time.

Understanding someone's situation is far better than condemning them for it.

Wooo, quote tunnel. I'll be honest, some of this is just semantics imo. When I say I blame someone for something, I mean their actions caused it. So saying that Dora's actions caused the situation (or the start of it anyway) and Dora is to blame for the situation (or the start of it anyway) go through my head the same way. And a lot of the dictionary definitions seem to follow the same idea.

I'm not saying throw blame out there and condemn them, I'm saying, you can't figure out what to change until you know what happened to CAUSE the situation, and then figure out what caused what caused the situation, etc etc.. There is a lot of responsibility to go around on this argument honestly, which is usually the case with all real arguments. Acknowledging that responsibility is the first step in changing it.

EDIT: Also, holy christ page 12