Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
Marten's fundamental character
O8h7w:
Since everyone have been hunting for a certain comic page, I finally hunted it down... :police:
1292
And it turns out he never actually said "aimless", and that may very well be the reason we couldn't find it. Now that I have wasted a whole lot of time on something like this, I think I have to do something a little more productive. I happen to have goals in my life, although small ones - it's what education does to you.
Boomslang:
--- Quote from: Olymander on 17 Dec 2010, 03:05 ---If that was directed at me, then no, I'm not really bitter about it. I'm foreign born (Asian), immigrated to the states while fairly young (5 years old), but was rather introverted, and thus most of my upbringing was more in the classic Asian sense than the American. I generally have no problems with those that are assertive and know exactly where they're going, although I do have issues with the fact that that often seems to have led to the current "entitlement" generation and the "screw you if you don't agree with me" attitude that so many people slightly younger than me (and even slightly older sometimes) seems to have (I'm... *counts* 31 right now, which means I fall slightly between the popular generations). Anyway, enough about me!
--- End quote ---
That does explain much of your position, although I do think it's led you to be isolated from those of us in my generation who aren't suffering from entitlement issues or narcissism. It's not a universal trait by any means.
We're just keeping our heads down and hoping the world doesn't explode or collapse before we get a chance to do something about it.
--- Quote ---I don't know that he was really suffering, though. He admittedly would get twinges that this wasn't enough (I can't find it right now, I think it was a conversation with Tai?), but I don't know if he was "suffering", per se. Some people can actually be content with living like that, although I don't know if we ever learn for sure if Marten might be one of those. It is possible to wonder "if there's something more" without actually being dissatisfied. Admittedly, that way lies stasis, and I think someone else mentioned that Jeph is against stasis in his characters.
--- End quote ---
Well, if the downing of an entire bottle of bourbon isn't a clear indication the guy is in emotional pain, I'm not sure what to tell you. I never meant to imply the suffering was constant, but it's acute right now. And Marten has very little to actually hope for right now, unless he makes a change. His relationship with Dora is over, and that void is going to remain there until he does something about it.
--- Quote ---Was he actually taking responsibility, though? It just seemed like he was getting angry that a line that he thought he'd put down had been crossed. While that shows "a spine", I disagree that it shows that he's taking responsibility, at least not as it was presented. I really think everyone was rejoicing just because they were thinking "Yay! Marten isn't a pushover! He's actually capable of getting angry and being a selfish bastard!" This to me seems more like people were happy that he wasn't "the perfect doormat", and that he was being brought down to a more, call it understandable level.
--- End quote ---
Please keep in mind that I was clearly talking about what I believed other people felt like, attempting to understand their position. Do you really believe you're stating their positions accurately? Because it seems you want to paint them as villains and rail against them rather than learn why they hold a position that doesn't make sense to you.
--- Quote ---Well, in a general sense, everyone deserves better. Unfortunately, life "is", and until karma (in this world) is proven, what one deserves and what one gets rarely coincide (apart from fiction or the efforts of others to make it so). I wonder if Marten perhaps has what you might call a "philanthropist" character, basically a person who derives joy in making other people happy. In what might be called an extension of your point of "gaining happiness from the kindness of others", he instead actually "gains happiness in making other people happy". This won't preclude occasional bouts of self-doubt (like his little drunken rampage with Faye), but I wonder if that might not be his fundamental character. This could also, I suppose, feed into that "Nice Guy" image that everyone else complains about, although I think that would depend more on the root of why he has such a character. After all, he may be more of a "Mother Theresa" type that genuinely believes in trying to make other people happy as opposed to doing it out of a lack of a sense of self-worth.
--- End quote ---
Marten isn't a philanthropist, though. He'll help people when the opportunity falls into his lap, but he hasn't sought out chances to help people that he's not already friends with.
The characterization you've made might be accurate, but it really changes nothing, as he's still not making a conscious decision to do the things that would improve his happiness beyond what simply appears at his feet.
jwhouk:
"Selling out" does not equal "aimless", this is true.
More like "surrender."
Olymander:
--- Quote from: Boomslang on 17 Dec 2010, 06:41 ---That does explain much of your position, although I do think it's led you to be isolated from those of us in my generation who aren't suffering from entitlement issues or narcissism. It's not a universal trait by any means.
--- End quote ---
Oh, I hadn't meant to imply that it was a universal trait. I think I'm still suffering a bit from all of the people that seemed to espouse that trait that came out in the locked thread of a few weeks back, which is, in the end, a bit of what this entire topic is all about (or at least sparked from).
--- Quote from: Boomslang on 17 Dec 2010, 06:41 ---
--- Quote from: Olymander on 17 Dec 2010, 03:05 ---I don't know that he was really suffering, though. He admittedly would get twinges that this wasn't enough (I can't find it right now, I think it was a conversation with Tai?), but I don't know if he was "suffering", per se. Some people can actually be content with living like that, although I don't know if we ever learn for sure if Marten might be one of those. It is possible to wonder "if there's something more" without actually being dissatisfied. Admittedly, that way lies stasis, and I think someone else mentioned that Jeph is against stasis in his characters.
--- End quote ---
Well, if the downing of an entire bottle of bourbon isn't a clear indication the guy is in emotional pain, I'm not sure what to tell you. I never meant to imply the suffering was constant, but it's acute right now. And Marten has very little to actually hope for right now, unless he makes a change. His relationship with Dora is over, and that void is going to remain there until he does something about it.
--- End quote ---
I'd agree that he's suffering right now, but I was referring more to the entire process up to this point, since I'd been thinking about comic #1292 (thanks, 08h7w!), which happened much earlier than the present story arc, and your mention of his work life and music career had me thinking more about his previous life as expressed by that comic than his current circumstances.
--- Quote from: Boomslang on 17 Dec 2010, 06:41 ---
--- Quote from: Olymander on 17 Dec 2010, 03:05 ---Was he actually taking responsibility, though? It just seemed like he was getting angry that a line that he thought he'd put down had been crossed. While that shows "a spine", I disagree that it shows that he's taking responsibility, at least not as it was presented. I really think everyone was rejoicing just because they were thinking "Yay! Marten isn't a pushover! He's actually capable of getting angry and being a selfish bastard!" This to me seems more like people were happy that he wasn't "the perfect doormat", and that he was being brought down to a more, call it understandable level.
--- End quote ---
Please keep in mind that I was clearly talking about what I believed other people felt like, attempting to understand their position. Do you really believe you're stating their positions accurately? Because it seems you want to paint them as villains and rail against them rather than learn why they hold a position that doesn't make sense to you.
--- End quote ---
Ah, I'm afraid that wasn't clear to me (that you were talking about what you believed other people felt like). And I do think that for the ones that I do remember from previous locked thread, that is pretty much what they thought, mostly because they'd follow up their statements with something along the lines of "now be a man and dump that bitch!" as well as the comments about "Wow, Marten isn't a saint anymore. Thank god. He was just too perfect at letting people walk all over him." As for painting them as villains, I don't think that was my actual intent (subconscious aside), I think I was more trying to point out the way that they sounded to me, or the tone that they (to me) were putting across.
--- Quote from: Boomslang on 17 Dec 2010, 06:41 ---
--- Quote from: Olymander on 17 Dec 2010, 03:05 ---I wonder if Marten perhaps has what you might call a "philanthropist" character, basically a person who derives joy in making other people happy. In what might be called an extension of your point of "gaining happiness from the kindness of others", he instead actually "gains happiness in making other people happy". This won't preclude occasional bouts of self-doubt (like his little drunken rampage with Faye), but I wonder if that might not be his fundamental character. This could also, I suppose, feed into that "Nice Guy" image that everyone else complains about, although I think that would depend more on the root of why he has such a character. After all, he may be more of a "Mother Theresa" type that genuinely believes in trying to make other people happy as opposed to doing it out of a lack of a sense of self-worth.
--- End quote ---
Marten isn't a philanthropist, though. He'll help people when the opportunity falls into his lap, but he hasn't sought out chances to help people that he's not already friends with.
The characterization you've made might be accurate, but it really changes nothing, as he's still not making a conscious decision to do the things that would improve his happiness beyond what simply appears at his feet.
--- End quote ---
Not an active philanthropist, no. Although we have no idea if he might donate, or volunteer somewhere in his off time. My characterization was more to point out that if that is his motivation, then he _is_ improving his happiness by helping out his friends and making them happier, hence the "gains happiness by making other people happy." By that token, him helping people that he isn't already friends with doesn't help him as much; he may not be able to see how much change he's making in their lives. Take Faye for example. Yes, in his drunken state he complained that he got her over her problems just in time to have her go to somebody else, but maybe that's really "the thing he does", helps people that he knows to improve their own lives and thus derive joy from doing so. Hanners is probably a better example of this, apart from the early weirdness of the way she was introduced, see how happy Marten is that she's been coming along with her OCD, and expanding her horizons, trying "normal" things, and just in general "growing up", so to speak.
Is it cold in here?:
Is Marten depressed?
Emotional overcontrol goes with treatment-resistant depression, and a case of depression would fit his lack of initiative.
His social life, however, is way better than you'd expect of a depressive.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version