Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
Assumptions and Homophobia
Armadillo:
--- Quote from: tbones on 22 Feb 2011, 13:06 ---
--- Quote from: Armadillo on 22 Feb 2011, 12:46 ---So if you don't agree with someone, the best course of action is not to engage them in a civil attempt to change their viewpoints, but rather to ostracize, ridicule, yell "shut up shut up SHUT UP!" and walk out the door?
--- End quote ---
Sorry to barge in but...
What? When in Tender's post did you read that the best course of action is to " ostracize, ridicule, yell "shut up shut up SHUT UP!" and walk out the door? "??
Tender only said that homophobia is wrong. And i agree with him/her, if you have some personal choices that don't go along with homosexuality, that's your bussiness, but that doesn't mean you can discriminate people because of their sexual orientation.
--- End quote ---
I should clarify.
My issue isn't with tender's point of view regarding sexual orientation/homophobia, rather the reaction towards those with a differing viewpoint, such as this quote:
"It's disappointing when tangents like these are left open for posters to discuss, as if those are acceptable opinions. Some ideas are wrong and should be quickly dismissed, allowing the discussion to move on to better things."
It's the use of the term "acceptable opinions" that raises my hackles the most; like I said earlier, I feel that there are no "unacceptable" opinions, no matter how offensive they may be. He/she also seems to wish to control the dialogue, "dismissing" those opinions they find disagreeable, in order to "move on to better things." To me, that's a closed-minded attitude taken, ironically, in order to further "open-mindedness."
Carl-E:
Oh, but there are unacceptable opinions. No matter how sincerely held, there are opinions that, at their root, are just wrong. Doesn't make the holder an evil person (necessarily), but it doesn't reflect well on them either.
The attempt to open the eyes/mind of such a person needs to be made. Otherwise, they'll continue in the dark, and you've implicitly validated their opinion. It doesn't need to be vehement or violent, nor does it need to end a friendship, but it needs to be done.
The range of people in this forum is vast, in background, age and maturity. For many, it's the first time some of these assumptions have ever been challenged. Make the attempt to correct what's wrong, and you'll leave the place in better shape than it was before. the improvements may not show for a while, but without the effort, change will never happen.
Fenriswolf:
--- Quote from: Odin on 22 Feb 2011, 12:44 ---Listen, the US House just passed a measure to cut Planned Parenthood funding by $300 million dollars Friday, there are bigger things to be outraged about.
--- End quote ---
Strangely, it's possible to care about more than one thing at a time. It's possible to fight the bill as hard as you can, and call people out on homophobia. :psyduck:
cabbagehut:
--- Quote from: El_Flesh on 21 Feb 2011, 16:07 ---
I, too would be put off to find someone assumed I was gay. What, am I acting effeminate or something??
I'm not gay, but I don't mind talking or interacting with someone gay - so long as they are at arm's length.
But seeing two guys kissing/getting it on? Revolting. Is it my DNA? My conditioning? I don't know and I don't care.
Slapping a label of 'Homophobia' on that would be wrong, too. Unlike my father's generation,
I don't feel gay men should have the shit kicked out of them merely for being gay.
--- End quote ---
No, that's... pretty much homophobia, and it's not wrong to say it is. As others have noted, it doesn't have to be violent or dangerous to be homophobic. I am curious about two things: do you think that there aren't gay people on this board that might read this and feel a little put off (good to know we only disgust you and you don't think we should be beaten for that), and secondly, do you feel the same way about gay women? Lots of people are all right with two pretty girls kissing, but not so much with two men, pretty or not. Also, you don't need to keep the gays at arm's length. Everyone knows that the gay is only transmitted sexually.
As for the comic, Marten seems pretty fine with gay men - I don't consider him homophobic. Especially after interacting with his father, and his support of his dad's desire for partnership, I don't think that he'd necessarily be offended that Padma thought he was gay with Steve. Rather, I think he's just frustrated that Steve's monopolizing the conversation and seeming like he's not disclosing his relationship status (that might be concern for Cosette, or it might be jealousy of Padma's attention, both, or some other reason). Steve, on the other hand, I'm not exactly sure. He hasn't shown any real reasoning one way or the other, from what I can recall (and I may be mistaken!).
And the poster who said that the homophobia is projected, yes, it pretty much is. Most of the responses have been about what other commenters on this board have said, but I think it's relevant to the comic itself. Jacques has clearly made an effort to make realistic characters of many sexual orientations, and tried to be sensitive to them. How the readers interpret that, and how people of those sexual orientations feel about the representation matter. Gay people and homophobia are pretty common jokes, and they can either reinforce negative ideas about gay people and the like, or they can sort of undermine the humor in degrading other people. I feel that this situation, we aren't supposed to laugh at the idea that Marten and Steve are gay, but rather that Padma keeps saying the wrong thing and that Steve and Marten do sometimes act like an old married couple.
Fenriswolf:
--- Quote from: cabbagehut on 22 Feb 2011, 13:50 ---And the poster who said that the homophobia is projected, yes, it pretty much is. Most of the responses have been about what other commenters on this board have said, but I think it's relevant to the comic itself. Jacques has clearly made an effort to make realistic characters of many sexual orientations, and tried to be sensitive to them. How the readers interpret that, and how people of those sexual orientations feel about the representation matter. Gay people and homophobia are pretty common jokes, and they can either reinforce negative ideas about gay people and the like, or they can sort of undermine the humor in degrading other people. I feel that this situation, we aren't supposed to laugh at the idea that Marten and Steve are gay, but rather that Padma keeps saying the wrong thing and that Steve and Marten do sometimes act like an old married couple.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, I don't think anyone was ever arguing any of the characters were homophobic. Someone brought up that Marten should throw a drink in Padma's face for *gasp* assuming he's gay, and someone else argued that strong of a reaction is pretty homophobic, and it went from there. Complete with homophobic statements defended as, er, not homophobia.
We need to de-couple this concept of homophobic/other discriminatory belief=bad person. While they are not good traits, people have unfortunately come to the conclusion that, for example, homophobes are bad people, and I'm not a bad person, so I can't be homophobic. Er, no. We are somewhat socialised to be prejudiced, and recognising that prejudice and making an effort to change is what stops you being a "bad person", not attempting to change the definition of your behaviour.
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