Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
WCDT 25-29 Apr 2011 (1911-1915)
Dust:
--- Quote from: Tergon on 29 Apr 2011, 21:47 ---
--- Quote from: LoveJaneAusten on 29 Apr 2011, 16:33 ---Tai did more than take her top off; she also tried to take Faye's top off. I find that to be a troubling example of a sex-obsessed lesbian. Whether Jeph intended to make her a stereotype or not, or being unwilling to see the connection between Tai's example and a host of common characterizations of gays and lesbians in the media, doesn't change the fact that she is. Alone, she would be a harmless character. In a greater media context, she serves as a further entrenchment of lesbian stereotypes. I don't think that this is what Jeph intended, personally, but it is there, irrespective of intention.
--- End quote ---
But you see, to me, that's as big a problem in society as the alternative. By that logic, how is it even possible to portray a homosexual character as a sexual entity at all without confirming to the offensive stereotype? And if your intention is to portray the character in a completely non-sexual light who forms no physical or romantic relationships, by what measure is that character then homosexual in the first place? Because if media simply refused to acknowledge the existence of homosexuals in the first place, that's even worse in my mind than a horndog stereotype.
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Going to give this section an "exactly". We should all know by now that no "perfect" characters are going to appear, so clutching at flaws as a sign of stereotypes seems more indicative of which stereotypes we assign to groups ourselves, rather than Jeph has.
LoveJaneAusten:
--- Quote from: Tergon on 29 Apr 2011, 21:47 ---But you see, to me, that's as big a problem in society as the alternative. By that logic, how is it even possible to portray a homosexual character as a sexual entity at all without confirming to the offensive stereotype? And if your intention is to portray the character in a completely non-sexual light who forms no physical or romantic relationships, by what measure is that character then homosexual in the first place? Because if media simply refused to acknowledge the existence of homosexuals in the first place, that's even worse in my mind than a horndog stereotype.
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It's actually quite telling that you can't imagine a portrayal of a gay or lesbian character that doesn't resort to stereotypes, and further proves that ideas about gays and lesbians and what they can, may, and must be are so strongly influenced by their treatment in the media.
--- Quote ---This is not a joke about Tai being gay. Imagine that instead of Tai, Faye and Dora, it was Raven, Marten and Steve, respectively! The exact same joke could play out, in the exact same manner, without a hitch. Hell, considering that Steve's in a relationship and Marten is recently broken-up, it'd be just as inappropriate! And since all three are firmly heterosexual, it'd be even more sexually charged as a comic. Or maybe you'd prefer to take it in the other direction: assume that this is the first time you have ever seen a QC strip. You have no knowledge about any of these characters, and therefore do not know anything about their sexuality. The joke still works simply for what it is, with gay or straight undertones being utterly irrelevant, because it is a joke about Tai having few boundaries on the subject of nudity and finding such things amusing, while Faye clearly does not.
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As I've said, the fact that the joke is about Tai's personality does not mean the comic does not participate in stereotyping.
--- Quote ---To take this joke and then to insert the subject of lesbian stereotyping is not merely to misunderstand the joke, it's to actively search for a reason to be offended by it. And you even acknowledge that aside from one or two of these examples, Tai is shown as a headstrong, intelligent, independent young woman who knows what she wants in life. The fact that she's uninhibited is a facet of her personality. Taking that facet, twisting it into a comparison with negative portrayals of homosexuals in other media, and then claiming that because the comparison can be made, it's offensive... it just bewilders me. The logic seems similar to how Jack Thompson claimed that school shootings were a direct result of kids playing Grand Theft Auto games.
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When did I ascribe those qualities to Tai? Tai is probably the worst-written of all the QC characters, in my opinion, because Jeph consistently treats her like a caricature. Further, you're at least the third person to suggest that I'm actively looking for reasons to be offended, which is untrue. I'm not sure how I could prove to you that it's untrue, except to say that it is. Jeph's comic did not offend me, it disappointed me, because of his use of a negative stereotype to make a joke.
--- Quote ---Tai's a quirky, uninhibited, fun-loving character who coincidentally happens to be a lesbian. Now, we could all declare that portraying her as a sexual entity is serious business and so we shall make no jokes, harrumph! But where would that get us? It's literally choosing to become offended over something that was never even remotely intended to be so, and can only be vaguely connected to anything that is. And perhaps it could have been done more respectfully, but this was done to be true to the character and for the sake of a harmless joke, compared with several other perfectly respectful discussions of the same topic. And if this one, single, throwaway joke offended you that badly that you can't get past it... well, I just don't know how to help you get over that hurdle when for me, the hurdle doesn't even exist.
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Being "true to the character" misses the forest for the trees. Think about what it says that in order to be true to the character, Tai is always shown hypersexualized. Seriously, think about that. That is where the problem is: the fact that Jeph has written a quirky, uninhibited, fun-loving lesbian cliche. If you can't see how that participates in a greater problem endemic in the media, then the hurdle truly doesn't exist for you, I agree.
--- Quote from: Dust on 29 Apr 2011, 22:52 ---Going to give this section an "exactly". We should all know by now that no "perfect" characters are going to appear, so clutching at flaws as a sign of stereotypes seems more indicative of which stereotypes we assign to groups ourselves, rather than Jeph has.
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The fact that there are no "perfect" characters does not in any way excuse the use of harmful stereotypes, and it's silly to suggest so.
Skewbrow:
Well, last week Jeph had another person, Clinton, behave in an even more stereotypical manner. We didn't see too many people getting offended by how QC reinforces the stereotypical image of nerds splashed all over the media, did we? In fact quite the opposite.
--- Quote from: LoveJaneAusten on 21 Apr 2011, 11:33 ---I really hoped Clinton was a vehicle for every creepy and annoying Hanners fan and really hoped he'd be unceremoniously shamed or hurt, but if he gets redemption I will conclude that Jeph actually enjoys people obsessing over Hannelore.
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Comparing Tai to Clinton is, of course, not quite appropriate. As readers it is easier for us to let Tai's shenanigans slide, because we know so much more about her, more or less expect something like this from her every now and then, but also know of her other qualities. In other words: for us Tai is a character, but Clinton is a caricature.
pwhodges:
--- Quote from: LoveJaneAusten on 29 Apr 2011, 23:26 ---It's actually quite telling that you can't imagine a portrayal of a gay or lesbian character that doesn't resort to stereotypes,
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If you meet a real-life lesbian who happens to match a number of features that you view as indicators of stereotyping (which in the Jezebel page, which I found a way to get to, includes "having a cat" and "wearing trousers"), do you suggest to them that they should change their behaviour or personality because they are reinforcing harmful stereotypes?
LoveJaneAusten:
--- Quote from: pwhodges on 29 Apr 2011, 23:37 ---If you meet a real-life lesbian who happens to match a number of features that you view as indicators of stereotyping (which in the Jezebel page, which I found a way to get to, includes "having a cat" and "wearing trousers"), do you suggest to them that they should change their behaviour or personality because they are reinforcing harmful stereotypes?
--- End quote ---
No. Can you guess why? (Hint: it has to do with media saturation rather than dealing with people on an individual level.)
C'mon, was that question serious? It's like you're trying to set a logic trap so you can show an inconsistency and disregard my critique rather than engaging it.
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