Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
WCDT 25-29 Apr 2011 (1911-1915)
Blackjoker:
--- Quote from: Skewbrow on 29 Apr 2011, 23:29 ---Well, last week Jeph had another person, Clinton, behave in an even more stereotypical manner. We didn't see too many people getting offended by how QC reinforces the stereotypical image of nerds splashed all over the media, did we? In fact quite the opposite.
--- Quote from: LoveJaneAusten on 21 Apr 2011, 11:33 ---I really hoped Clinton was a vehicle for every creepy and annoying Hanners fan and really hoped he'd be unceremoniously shamed or hurt, but if he gets redemption I will conclude that Jeph actually enjoys people obsessing over Hannelore.
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Comparing Tai to Clinton is, of course, not quite appropriate. As readers it is easier for us to let Tai's shenanigans slide, because we know so much more about her, more or less expect something like this from her every now and then, but also know of her other qualities. In other words: for us Tai is a character, but Clinton is a caricature.
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Two sides on this.
1) Technically true, however nerds aren't a hated group in the way that gays are, I haven't seen an organized nerd bash outside of a high school nor do I hear people consistently saying that nerds will burn in hell for their book learnin' ways. It is also worth noting that Clintons first action could be written off as awkwardness/foolishness/non-creepiness but in his second appearance he took her picture before she could give permission or deny it, and while his reaction could be understandable his behavior seems less stereotypical nerd and more creepy. It could also be pointed out that Tai has a tendency to ignore the boundaries of others and while she might be 'playful' in doing it were her character male it would get probably make people think the guy is kinda skeevy. A lot of Tais stuff could just be in jest, like when she told Dora that Marten was cheating on her after finding out that would pretty much be the only way to get Dora to have a relationship with her, she also talks frequently about her own sexual exploits but gets really angry when Marten makes any comments about his, especially when he started it. But it does kind of make Tai a negative character and it could be seen as a negative view on lesbians or pandering to stereotypes. I think it's also fair to point out that Tai has groped Faye before and if memory serves Faye wasn't thrilled then either, and in some ways Tai being a long standing member of the group who would probably know that Faye would not like this, makes it worse, not better.
Conversely
2) I never saw Tai's behavior as being a lesbian stereotype, I saw her as being a hypersexualized person who also happened to be wired to want to pursue relationships, physical and emotional, with women. Tai as a character is not a favorite of mine, as mentioned before she has a lot of negative traits, while I enjoy the stuff where she banters with Marten and some of her interactions are pretty cool she also can be rather unlikeable. I should also point out that to a certain extent stereotypes are going to be inevitable, not that you can't write without them but if you want to create people you will have them fulfill certain tropes or concepts. I see Tai more in the tropes of the college student experimenting with whatever she can before it's time to really enter the real world (see the LSD strip and the like), and she's also a lesbian. There is also the fact that people all have positive and negative traits, that's what makes them human, and since QC is more a humor comic than a drama one and humor does require a bit of conflict here and there negative traits will be used to humorous effect.
Tai wasn't inherently hypersexualized when she talked with Marten, we did get the idea that she enjoyed sex and eventually was in a poly relationship, however we also had little contact with her since she wasn't a major part of the groups social circle, given that they went to bars and drank a fair amount as well one might as well say that the entirety of the QC cast are alcoholics. Tai's actions here are a result of a combination of impulse control issues, lack of boundaries, etc. I don't see them as lesbian issues, I do see them making Tai behave in a manner that I find rather creepy. I think comparing to Clinton is apt in some ways, but yeah, the behaviors are a bit different and Tai is an established character so her actions get a bit more leeway in that context.
Tergon:
--- Quote from: LoveJaneAusten on 29 Apr 2011, 23:26 ---It's actually quite telling that you can't imagine a portrayal of a gay or lesbian character that doesn't resort to stereotypes, and further proves that ideas about gays and lesbians and what they can, may, and must be are so strongly influenced by their treatment in the media.
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Nonono, that's precisely my point - I can. Easily. I've seen several in various media, I've got the people I know in my own life, there are even the other gay or bisexual characters we've seen in QC. What I'm saying is that simply because someone likes sex it doesn't mean that they're necessarily part of some negative archetype. There does not need to be a connection between gay and promiscuous unless we intentionally draw one.
--- Quote from: LoveJaneAusten on 29 Apr 2011, 23:26 ---As I've said, the fact that the joke is about Tai's personality does not mean the comic does not participate in stereotyping.
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And I've never denied that Tai confirms to the stereotype. I simply fail to see how it's either negative, or really relevant.
--- Quote from: LoveJaneAusten on 29 Apr 2011, 23:26 ---When did I ascribe those qualities to Tai? Tai is probably the worst-written of all the QC characters, in my opinion, because Jeph consistently treats her like a caricature. Further, you're at least the third person to suggest that I'm actively looking for reasons to be offended, which is untrue. I'm not sure how I could prove to you that it's untrue, except to say that it is. Jeph's comic did not offend me, it disappointed me, because of his use of a negative stereotype to make a joke.
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Apologies... I'm putting words in your mouth. Those are the qualities that I attribute to her, and have been working with for the discussion. But I stand by them - she's clearly intelligent, she's confident and outgoing most of the time, she's Marten's boss despite being much younger than him. Besides the fact that she's promiscuous, she's actually a pretty awesome person, right down to being totally open and unashamed about her sexuality. I see nothing negative there. And you yourself noted above that this is a joke about Tai's personality, not a joke about a negative stereotype. That's something you're adding in to the joke.
--- Quote from: LoveJaneAusten on 29 Apr 2011, 23:26 ---Being "true to the character" misses the forest for the trees. Think about what it says that in order to be true to the character, Tai is always shown hypersexualized. Seriously, think about that. That is where the problem is: the fact that Jeph has written a quirky, uninhibited, fun-loving lesbian cliche. If you can't see how that participates in a greater problem endemic in the media, then the hurdle truly doesn't exist for you, I agree.
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And it'd be, what, less offensive if she were straight? Or perhaps if she were a lesbian but was morbidly ashamed of that fact and tried to hide in the closet? Instead Tai's open about her sexuality. Yes, she's hypersexualised, but then so was Raven, and she wasn't a lesbian. Hell, even Steve has been canonically portrayed as a bit of a ladies' man with several relationships over the course of QC, many of whom involved girls much younger than him. Did it offend you when he got into a relationship with an impressionable girl who wasn't even of the age of consent, or when he picked up Cosette who was clearly becoming slightly obsessed with him at the time when they finally met in person? Many, many potentially-controversial issues have been brought up over the course of QC. This one, which you acknowledge was not done with malevolent intent even if it may be considered offensive, is so minor in comparison.
I think what gets me so into this discussion is that I do actually see your viewpoint. I get it. And I can think of many examples in culture of offensive or stereotypical portrayals of gay and lesbian people, even subtle ones like you describe. But I just can't see it here, in this comic, relevant to this conversation. No matter how hard I try, I cannot see Tai taking off her shirt as being a degrading stereotype of slutty lesbians that is offensive to society. It's a joke in an internet webcomic. Worlds do not turn on these cogs. And even if they did, I just can't see it being as negative as you say.
pwhodges:
--- Quote from: LoveJaneAusten on 29 Apr 2011, 23:42 ---It's like you're trying to set a logic trap so you can show an inconsistency and disregard my critique rather than engaging it.
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No, I am trying to think around the subject, rather than getting stuck on one view of it; I often play devil's advocate, or throw out ideas to try them for size. In this case, I was exploring the boundaries of your viewpoint.
I now find my thoughts turning to a discussion that has arisen a couple of times in another part of this forum, about authorial intention. The consensus (which I don't entirely agree with, but which is fashionable) seems to be that the author has no special claim for consideration in the interpretation of their work. A corollary of this would seem to be that they have no responsibility for how it it is interpreted or used either. This line of thought leads me to suggest that attacking (OK, too harsh a word, as you've said) a comic strip for stereotyping is going for the wrong target - you should be addressing those who use or respond to the stereotype (inappropriately, that is, as we've said before). Perhaps too much such mistargetting is a symptom of the over-zealous application of political correctness.
Armadillo:
--- Quote from: LoveJaneAusten on 29 Apr 2011, 23:26 ---
--- Quote from: Tergon on 29 Apr 2011, 21:47 ---Tai's a quirky, uninhibited, fun-loving character who coincidentally happens to be a lesbian. Now, we could all declare that portraying her as a sexual entity is serious business and so we shall make no jokes, harrumph! But where would that get us? It's literally choosing to become offended over something that was never even remotely intended to be so, and can only be vaguely connected to anything that is. And perhaps it could have been done more respectfully, but this was done to be true to the character and for the sake of a harmless joke, compared with several other perfectly respectful discussions of the same topic. And if this one, single, throwaway joke offended you that badly that you can't get past it... well, I just don't know how to help you get over that hurdle when for me, the hurdle doesn't even exist.
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Being "true to the character" misses the forest for the trees. Think about what it says that in order to be true to the character, Tai is always shown hypersexualized. Seriously, think about that. That is where the problem is: the fact that Jeph has written a quirky, uninhibited, fun-loving lesbian cliche. If you can't see how that participates in a greater problem endemic in the media, then the hurdle truly doesn't exist for you, I agree.
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I can only speak for myself, but when I saw the strip today, the last thing in my brain was, "AHA! Tai's a stereotypical sex-crazed lesbian!" Besides the awesome boob-blocking cat, I took away that Tai entered the Awkward Zone in a BIG way, which as a 100% heterosexual male, I can relate to from instances in my single days when I was around someone I REALLY wanted to sleep with. Gays and lesbians have sex drives, at least as I'm lead to believe, so why wouldn't you write situations where people with sex drives get goofy around those they're attracted to? Also, let's not discount the fact that Dora's not arrow-straight herself, and I believe Tai's knowledge of that fact has led us here.
Tergon:
I know I may be beating a dead horse here, but let me see if I can put this in perspective with an example.
Suppose I'm the director of a B-Horror movie. Real corny slasher-thriller stuff, lots of gore. And when it comes casting day, I've been very specific and clear to everyone, including the people trying out for the roles: I want the biggest, strongest, meanest-looking, juggernaut of a guy to be my killer. Someone who when you saw him walking down the street, you'd get out of his way because he's so big and scary-looking. Of course, I also want this guy to be an excellent actor. And, suitably, during tryouts one guy stands out - he has excellent diction, he's intelligent, he's been well-trained and he's been in several smaller roles before. He's also by far the biggest, strongest, meanest-looking juggernaut of a guy within five hundred miles. He knows it, I know it, everyone knows it, and there is absolutely no question that he's the best guy for the role.
But, surprise! He's black.
Now, if I cast this man, I'm furthering the black-people-are-criminals stereotype, which I think we can all agree is awful. But if I don't, then absolutely everyone knows the truth: I'm turning down the best man for the job based entirely on his race. And you know what? Besides being illegal, and besides being a worse choice for my movie, I think door number two here is a far, far worse option, ethically speaking. Now, I don't care about the racial issue of casting him. And he clearly doesn't, or he wouldn't be there. But because some asshole somewhere is going to call me racist no matter what I do, I have to make a devil's choice because of what's politically correct.
That's the kind of issue I draw here. We all seem to agree that the joke was specifically about Tai's lack of boundaries and not about her sexuality. And we also seem to agree that based on how her character has been designed, her pulling a stunt like this is in-character. But we get hung up on the issue of her being a lesbian stereotype because... why? What possible reason is there to bring this up? Well, because the stereotype exists and no matter how hard we try, we can't get away from it. Just like a black man being a horror movie murderer. The connection exists because we choose to make a big deal out if it, and for no other reason at all.
Hell, let's pull out all the stops and throw up this for a suggestion: Jeph made Tai the way she is, intentionally aware that he was confirming to the stereotype. Has he made Tai a hairy, flannel-wearing trucker lesbian? Nope. Has he repeatedly shown her in gratuitous cheesecake shots? Nope. Does she have AIDS or some other STD? Nope. Does she commit crimes or lead children into temptation? Nope. She's smart, she's feminine without looking like a porn star, she's sassy, she's cheerful and outgoing, she's extremely well-employed for a student of her age, and she happens to be promiscuous.
I submit to you that if Tai is to be held up to the stereotype of the horndog homosexual, then she should be considered a deconstruction of the trope considering how successful and normal she is beyond that.
And that's why I have trouble accepting this as negative. I refuse to simply see Tai's portrayal as negative just because Political Correctness says I should, and so I have to look at the character herself. In doing this, I see nothing that I consider offensive that really holds up to any kind of scrutiny.
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