Nonono, that's precisely my point - I can. Easily. I've seen several in various media, I've got the people I know in my own life, there are even the other gay or bisexual characters we've seen in QC. What I'm saying is that simply because someone likes sex it doesn't mean that they're necessarily part of some negative archetype. There does not need to be a connection between gay and promiscuous unless we intentionally draw one.
See, again you are misrepresenting or misunderstanding my point. I am not saying “simply because someone likes sex” they are a stereotype. I am saying “there is a stereotype of lesbians and gays portrayed as sex-obsessed and Tai’s example in this comic fulfills that stereotype”.
And I've never denied that Tai confirms to the stereotype. I simply fail to see how it's either negative, or really relevant.
I can’t help it if you don’t see why and how that stereotype is negative. I can only encourage you to read more about how media has characterized gays and lesbians, and how for generations they’ve been shown as deviant, and attacked and strawmanned as freaks. Only in very recent times have positive gay and lesbian characters been part of a mass media consciousness, and even then they often fall into stereotypes.
Apologies... I'm putting words in your mouth. Those are the qualities that I attribute to her, and have been working with for the discussion. But I stand by them - she's clearly intelligent, she's confident and outgoing most of the time, she's Marten's boss despite being much younger than him. Besides the fact that she's promiscuous, she's actually a pretty awesome person, right down to being totally open and unashamed about her sexuality. I see nothing negative there. And you yourself noted above that this is a joke about Tai's personality, not a joke about a negative stereotype. That's something you're adding in to the joke.
It’s amazing that I’ve had to explain at least three times now that simply because a joke is about Tai’s personality,
it doesn’t mean it also doesn’t make use of stereotypes.And it'd be, what, less offensive if she were straight?
Yes! If Tai were straight in this comic, then it would not be stereotyping lesbians (which it is).
Or perhaps if she were a lesbian but was morbidly ashamed of that fact and tried to hide in the closet? Instead Tai's open about her sexuality. Yes, she's hypersexualised, but then so was Raven, and she wasn't a lesbian. Hell, even Steve has been canonically portrayed as a bit of a ladies' man with several relationships over the course of QC, many of whom involved girls much younger than him. Did it offend you when he got into a relationship with an impressionable girl who wasn't even of the age of consent, or when he picked up Cosette who was clearly becoming slightly obsessed with him at the time when they finally met in person? Many, many potentially-controversial issues have been brought up over the course of QC. This one, which you acknowledge was not done with malevolent intent even if it may be considered offensive, is so minor in comparison.
You’re asking me about other plotlines that occurred before I began to follow QC, so I’m afraid I can’t answer them. My suspicious is that Jeph has probably made use of stereotypes many times, likely unconsciously. But since I wasn’t reading QC at those times, it’s not very fair to ask me where my critiques were then, is it?
I think what gets me so into this discussion is that I do actually see your viewpoint. I get it. And I can think of many examples in culture of offensive or stereotypical portrayals of gay and lesbian people, even subtle ones like you describe. But I just can't see it here, in this comic, relevant to this conversation. No matter how hard I try, I cannot see Tai taking off her shirt as being a degrading stereotype of slutty lesbians that is offensive to society. It's a joke in an internet webcomic. Worlds do not turn on these cogs. And even if they did, I just can't see it being as negative as you say.
You’re so close to a better understanding. Closer than most people in this thread. I really think all you have to do is read more about how media stereotypes have affected gays and lesbians and actually look at it from the minority perspective, and you’ll get there. However, saying “it’s just an internet comic” is a pretty obvious shut-down, unless you think that somehow internet comics take place in a vacuum, are not connected to any sort of context, and somehow exist without influence of cultural and societal values. That’s a hard case to make, I think.
No, I am trying to think around the subject, rather than getting stuck on one view of it; I often play devil's advocate, or throw out ideas to try them for size. In this case, I was exploring the boundaries of your viewpoint.
What’s interesting about this is that devil’s advocate is supposed to get someone to think through their argument and look for holes in it. The implication is that the person hasn’t thought through their assertions. I find in these discussions that people with privilege (straight privilege, white privilege in discussions of race, etc.) often play devil’s advocate, when in reality the people making assertions have thought through their arguments usually much more than the devil’s advocate. Yes, I know how to deal with real-life lesbians (trust me on this). The better question is have you thought through your assertions?
I know I may be beating a dead horse here, but let me see if I can put this in perspective with an example.
... But because some asshole somewhere is going to call me racist no matter what I do, I have to make a devil's choice because of what's politically correct.
None of this is about political correctness, which is a term the privileged levy at those without when their privilege is pointed out to them, usually via language. In your example, you absolutely would be participating in the stereotyping of how black men are portrayed in media; you admit as much. But it’s interesting that your “devil’s choice” precludes
writing a better movie that doesn’t further negative stereotypes. Why is that?
I submit to you that if Tai is to be held up to the stereotype of the horndog homosexual, then she should be considered a deconstruction of the trope considering how successful and normal she is beyond that.
And that's why I have trouble accepting this as negative. I refuse to simply see Tai's portrayal as negative just because Political Correctness says I should, and so I have to look at the character herself. In doing this, I see nothing that I consider offensive that really holds up to any kind of scrutiny.
For Tai to be a deconstruction of the stereotypes she exhibits, she’d have to parody them. Do you think Tai’s function is parodic? You’re very generous in your readings, then, because Tai’s actions are both in line with her character (hypersexualized, uninhibited, etc) but they really don’t get called into question or critiqued, do they? Now, if you can show they do, then I will concede this point, but so far her actions are caricatures and nothing more. (Jeph started to complicate her character – and thus set up a deconstruction of her personality – with her butterflies upon seeing Dora, but chose to get her topless and horny instead.)
What's wrong with being promiscuous?
Whether you're gay, straight, bi, transexual, transgendered, male, female, black, white, hispanic or Martian, why is seen as a bad thing to be open about your sexual desires?
Tai has never been shown to act an any way irresponsible or dishonest with any of her friends or partners, so why is she catching shit for having an active sex life?
There is nothing wrong with being promiscuous; there is something wrong with the common stereotype of lesbians and gays as promiscuous in media. You ought to go back and see how my assertion is a little more complex than giving Tai shit for having an active sex life.
LoveJaneAusten, you should ask Jeph via Tumblr why he's chosen to write Tai the way he has; the answer you get might be illuminating.
That's a good idea!
I could have been clearer, I meant stereotypes are only persistant when people are conscious of them. Whether using them or arguing against. I've only known (for certain) two lesbians, and they are pretty much polar opposites, so I guess I don't have any expectations for lesbians as a "whole". Well, apart from the defining trait.
That’s wrong, though. Stereotypes persist regardless of whether or not you’re conscious of them; in fact, that they are often subtle and unrecognized is one of their prime dangers. Just look at pwhodges; he was unaware of the “lesbians recruiting straight women” stereotype until this thread. And yet the stereotype existed before that.
What is the "media stereotype" of lesbians? I dunno, seems so multifaceted that I can't identify a single stereotype. Let's see, the most prominent lesbians in my media bubble are Melissa Etheridge, Rachel Maddow, Ellen DeGeneres and Stephanie Miller, so I guess the stereotype is talented, funny, good-looking, progressive and the smartest person in the room. OK, there are negative stereotypes out there too, but people are too various and the stereotypes are too numerous to expect every character to somehow avoid every possible stereotype.
There are many and they are definitely multifaceted and I encourage you to read and learn more about them! If you have already decided to not expect non-stereotyped characters in your media, then you are setting your standards low.
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Topic: WCDT 25-29 Apr 2011 (1911-1915) (Read 117578 times)