Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT

Does Marten have goals?

<< < (8/26) > >>

Tergon:

--- Quote from: Odin on 11 May 2011, 05:31 ---Bit of context, but they broke up before he moved and he basically harassed her until she told him to fuck off (conveniently retold in the comic to paint her as the bad guy, but then, Marten is the one telling the story so of course he didn't actually do anything wrong in that situation).
--- End quote ---
Not quite.  Marten fully acknowledges that he was being clingy and awkward, and that he was basically an unemployed loser when he arrived with her.  But they most definitely did not break up until at least a while after he moved:  that's made very clear in Marten's story.  Which, while I do acknowledge might paint Marten more positively than another perspective might, seems fairly straightforward on his part.  It's not a "convenient retelling" of the story, it's the only canonical version of the story that exists.  I'm choosing to take it as written rather than use made-up speculation as to anything else that might have happened.


--- Quote from: Odin on 11 May 2011, 05:31 ---Marten has 3 friends (Faye, Hannelore and Steve), everyone else is someone that Marten occasionally interacts with and who is another character in the comic, but he isn't friends with them.
--- End quote ---
He seems to have a strong friendship with Angus considering the short time they've known each other.  They definitely get along very well, even outside of the "Friend of a friend" link that first got them together.  Likewise for Marigold, who Marten helped coax out of her shell in a big way.  He got along well with Raven before she departed, even better than with Penelope and Wil, who he's hung out with before.  He gets along great with Tai, even spending time with her outside of work casually.  He even seems to be on pretty good terms with Sven, who's a bit of a dark horse amongst the characters.  And I don't think it even needs to be said that he had an extremely strong relationship with Dora until the breakup.  Wherever they may be now, she was beyond question a good friend, and then a well-loved girlfriend beyond that.
I agree that Faye, Steve and Hannelore are his closest friends, sure.  But... all of the others are people whose company he enjoys, who get along with him well, and who he voluntarily hangs out with.  Unless there's some new definition of "friend" I've not heard of, I'm sticking with that one.


--- Quote from: Odin on 11 May 2011, 05:31 ---Anyone have the last comic where Marten has actually acknowledged being in Deathmole or playing any sort of music himself? Hell, aside from a brief run of jokes about Hannelore being obsessed with drumming in the band, nobody in the comic has talked about it at all in a long while (since at least before shit really started to get miserable between Dora and Marten pre-breakup, which was also a toxic relationship to start with so that shouldn't be surprising).
--- End quote ---
True.  But I used this as an example of him doing something he loves.  Remember how he sold his guitar to raise the money to move with Vicki?  And then how it was a big deal that he bought one again, and then started playing music?  I'm not saying that Deathmole are becoming a huge local hit or anything.  I'm just saying that the guy is once again pursuing a passion of his, and there's no universe in which that's not a positive move for him.
Also, I won't take the "toxic relationship" bait.  It's derailed too many threads before.  Suffice to say I disagree.


--- Quote from: Odin on 11 May 2011, 05:31 ---The only way this prediction has a chance of coming true is if Jeph gets tired of making Marten the whipping post for the comic (read: never going to happen).

Every single other character in the comic but Marten has experienced character growth. Marten himself, however, has been a one-note character for the entire run of the comic (moved from one scenario or situation to the next).
--- End quote ---
Forming a group of close friends when he previously had none, getting a better job than Office Bitch when that job went under, moving into a better apartment for himself and his closest friend, getting into a serious relationship, showing backbone to keep it going when it went sour, moving on and recovering in a healthy way when it ended... he's helped Faye overcome her issues until she was able to get into a relationship with Angus, he's helped Hannelore come out of her shell and become a real person, he's a big part of the reason that Marigold got a social life.  He's gone from a shy, depressed music nerd with one friend and a pet robot to become a major part of the lives of several people, and over the course of nearly two thousand strips he's become more confident, assertive, and better adjusted the entire way.  You say that every single other character in the comic but Marten has experienced character growth?  I say that he's the reason that all of them experienced it in the first place.
And if you can't see any of that, if you dislike Marten so much, if you dislike the storyline so much, if you think the writing is so terrible... then why, in the name of all things holy, do you even read QC in the first place?

Odin:

--- Quote from: Tergon on 11 May 2011, 07:35 ---Not quite.  Marten fully acknowledges that he was being clingy and awkward, and that he was basically an unemployed loser when he arrived with her.  But they most definitely did not break up until at least a while after he moved:  that's made very clear in Marten's story.  Which, while I do acknowledge might paint Marten more positively than another perspective might, seems fairly straightforward on his part.  It's not a "convenient retelling" of the story, it's the only canonical version of the story that exists.  I'm choosing to take it as written rather than use made-up speculation as to anything else that might have happened.
--- End quote ---

Marten tells the story as if they started dating again and then she mysteriously dumped him after getting frustrated after a week and a half of him calling every day. Now, granted, that kind of thing can happen, but be honest and recall what scenario happens far more often when a guy moves across country in pursuit of a girl that broke up with him before he moved.


--- Quote ---He seems to have a strong friendship with Angus considering the short time they've known each other.  They definitely get along very well, even outside of the "Friend of a friend" link that first got them together.  Likewise for Marigold, who Marten helped coax out of her shell in a big way.  He got along well with Raven before she departed, even better than with Penelope and Wil, who he's hung out with before.  He gets along great with Tai, even spending time with her outside of work casually.  He even seems to be on pretty good terms with Sven, who's a bit of a dark horse amongst the characters.  And I don't think it even needs to be said that he had an extremely strong relationship with Dora until the breakup.  Wherever they may be now, she was beyond question a good friend, and then a well-loved girlfriend beyond that.
I agree that Faye, Steve and Hannelore are his closest friends, sure.  But... all of the others are people whose company he enjoys, who get along with him well, and who he voluntarily hangs out with.  Unless there's some new definition of "friend" I've not heard of, I'm sticking with that one.
--- End quote ---

All of those relationships are based off of comics where Marten happens to run into them anyway while they are doing something else (usually an "Oh, hey, Marten! What's up?" occurs). He isn't actually going and hanging out with these other people unless he is already hanging out with one of the Big 3 first.


--- Quote ---True.  But I used this as an example of him doing something he loves.  Remember how he sold his guitar to raise the money to move with Vicki?  And then how it was a big deal that he bought one again, and then started playing music?  I'm not saying that Deathmole are becoming a huge local hit or anything.  I'm just saying that the guy is once again pursuing a passion of his, and there's no universe in which that's not a positive move for him.
--- End quote ---

That's kind of dancing around the point and ignoring it. There is no current evidence that he is still pursuing that passion at all (and plenty of evidence that he has dropped it altogether, not even a throwaway "Yeah, this angst is really helping me out during practice" lines or anything).


--- Quote ---Also, I won't take the "toxic relationship" bait.  It's derailed too many threads before.  Suffice to say I disagree.
--- End quote ---

It isn't bait, what with being pretty obvious given the circumstances of why they broke up.


--- Quote ---Forming a group of close friends when he previously had none,
--- End quote ---

Passively accompished, as Faye and others basically forced themselves into his life.


--- Quote ---getting a better job than Office Bitch when that job went under
--- End quote ---

He got fired, spent some time unemployed then took on the library job after it was offered to him.


--- Quote ---moving into a better apartment for himself and his closest friend
--- End quote ---

Did he do this on his own, or did Faye drive it?


--- Quote ---getting into a serious relationship
--- End quote ---

100% driven by Dora.


--- Quote ---showing backbone to keep it going when it went sour
--- End quote ---

It takes zero backbone to stay in a relationship where the other person just steamrolls you all the time whenever you have an opinion on something.


--- Quote ---moving on and recovering in a healthy way when it ended.
--- End quote ---

This has not happened yet.


--- Quote ---he's helped Faye overcome her issues until she was able to get into a relationship with Angus
--- End quote ---

Something he is still intensely bitter about.


--- Quote ---he's helped Hannelore come out of her shell and become a real person
--- End quote ---

Faye and Dora have done far more to help that than Marten has.


--- Quote ---he's a big part of the reason that Marigold got a social life
--- End quote ---

Haha, what? Even Hannelore is more useful to Marigold on this front than Marten is. I can't even recall an instance of Marten ever talking to her unless she said something to him first (and always in the company of Dora or Faye).


--- Quote ---He's gone from a shy, depressed music nerd with one friend and a pet robot to become a major part of the lives of several people, and over the course of nearly two thousand strips he's become more confident, assertive, and better adjusted the entire way.  You say that every single other character in the comic but Marten has experienced character growth?  I say that he's the reason that all of them experienced it in the first place.
--- End quote ---

Covered this above.


--- Quote ---And if you can't see any of that, if you dislike Marten so much, if you dislike the storyline so much, if you think the writing is so terrible... then why, in the name of all things holy, do you even read QC in the first place?

--- End quote ---

Schadenfreude.

Tergon:

--- Quote from: Odin on 11 May 2011, 08:02 ---Marten tells the story as if they started dating again and then she mysteriously dumped him after getting frustrated after a week and a half of him calling every day. Now, granted, that kind of thing can happen, but be honest and recall what scenario happens far more often when a guy moves across country in pursuit of a girl that broke up with him before he moved.
--- End quote ---
But she didn't break up with him before he moved.  They were a couple, admittedly having some difficulty with the upcoming separation, but Marten makes it very clear that they had not broken up.  He clearly states that her becoming harder to contact happened over time, and says that just before the breakup he left her about six messages in a week because he hadn't seen her, not calling her obsessively every day.  Again, I do grant that sometimes the clingy guy is worse than this; I also acknoweldge that some guys in that situation would twist the truth to make themselves look good.  But that's not what's happened here.  The main character of the comic, whose word we have no reason whatsoever to doubt, has laid out the story in a manner that certainly doesn't flatter himself.  The parts of the story that you're arguing are things that he very specifically states, which implies that you think Marten is outright lying when he tells the story.  With zero basis for that assumption, and absolutely nothing even suggesting that another version of the story might be the truth, I just don't see grounds for debate here.  The story as it stands is caonical for the QC Universe.



--- Quote from: Odin on 11 May 2011, 08:02 ---All of those relationships are based off of comics where Marten happens to run into them anyway while they are doing something else (usually an "Oh, hey, Marten! What's up?" occurs). He isn't actually going and hanging out with these other people unless he is already hanging out with one of the Big 3 first.
--- End quote ---
So... he has his three best friends, as we've established, and he likes hanging out with them.  Gotcha.  But how does that make the others not his friends?  He does spend time with them, he does like them, he does get along well with them.  There is no basis here at all for saying they're not his friends!  Hell, I've got people I consider good friends, but we almost always hang out in the company of others.  The friendship is no less because we don't spend hours alone having Deep & Meaningfuls.



--- Quote from: Odin on 11 May 2011, 08:02 ---That's kind of dancing around the point and ignoring it. There is no current evidence that he is still pursuing that passion at all (and plenty of evidence that he has dropped it altogether, not even a throwaway "Yeah, this angst is really helping me out during practice" lines or anything).
--- End quote ---
On the contrary, it's trying to re-direct the point to what I originally made, rather than having it changed on me.  ;)  I'm saying that Marten at the start of the comic was a depressed guy who was not pursuing a passion for music, and that part of the character growth he's shown is that he started playing again.  Yeah, we haven't seen Deathmole playing in a while, but so what?  That's irrelevant to the point I was making - that Marten pursuing something he loves was a positive move for him.  The fact that we haven't seen him actually playing the guitar in a while isn't evidence that he's stopped at all, it's just lack of recent evidence that he's playing much.  Whether or not he's doing so with Deathmole has nothing to do with why I brought his music up in the first place.



--- Quote from: Odin on 11 May 2011, 08:02 ---Several quick responses to lines cut from my wall o' text

--- End quote ---
Rather than do an exhaustive line-by-line quotestorm, I'll keep it simple.
Marten opened his home to Faye before he had any real shot at a romantic relationship with her, and kept living with her because they've become incredibly close friends.  Faye openly tells Marten that the only reason she's strong enough to be dating Angus is because Marten helped her come to terms with her issues.  Marten, for his part, is not only fully supportive of Faye's relationship, but he gets along very well with Angus and even has a sense of humour about them starting a physical relationship.  There's definitely nothing at all to say he's the slightest bit bitter about it.
When Dora made her move on him, it took Marten entirely by surprise - but he didn't turn her down.  And when Dora was having doubts about the relationship and whether Marten was just settling or not, he went to great lengths to try and make her understand that he wanted to be with her, and wanted to be an active part in the relationship.  He wasn't just settling or letting her bully him into the relationship.  Many, many comics were devoted to Marten trying to prove that point.  When they did break up, he showed deep depression, but he's recovered to the point where he approached Padma in a bar, was willing to face Dora again, can make jokes about the relationship, and has pretty much gotten over his depression.
Hannelore fixated on Marten more than anyone, and he's still the one she seeks out more than most of the others.  Their brother-sister relationship is one of my favourite parts of QC, and he's been there for her a lot to help coax her out of her shell.  Faye has definitely been a big part of it as well, but I still maintain that Marten's been the main part of that.  Certainly he spends more time with Hannelore than Dora does.
As for Marigold... well, there's the obvious fact that Marten was the one who introduced her into the comic (with a bit of AnthroPC Shenanigans thrown in there as well).  He's present at Marigold's first night out drinking when he teaches her about beer, he's present at the Anime convention when the girls dress him as a character to cheer Marigold up, even the night when she finds out about Faye and Angus is at his apartment.  Marten's clearly a big part of her social life, and without him there to introduce her to the gang, it's doubtful she'd have one at all.

He is a huge part of all of their lives, and his actions have changed them all.  Sometimes, yes, it's been passive on his part, but how does that change how important he is to them?  He's been a part of all their adventures, he's played a role the entire time, and he's changed their lives.



--- Quote from: Odin on 11 May 2011, 08:02 ---
--- Quote ---And if you can't see any of that, if you dislike Marten so much, if you dislike the storyline so much, if you think the writing is so terrible... then why, in the name of all things holy, do you even read QC in the first place?

--- End quote ---

Schadenfreude.

--- End quote ---
So, you read QC and debate it on the forums because you take pleasure in the misfortunes of others.  You don't deny your contempt for the characters, or the storyline, or the writer, and you take every opportunity to decry all three of these things.  You are here, apparently, for no other reason than to mock them.
Just... wow.

DSL:
Never mud-wrestle with a pig. You both get all muddy and the pig likes it.

Is it cold in here?:
The most recent comic I know of that mentioned the band was 1395, definitely a while back. Does anyone have a more recent one?

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page