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[SJCrew]

Dora doesn't need a lifetime of brooding and therapy to get over her issues. She needs to keep practicing so that she can learn to not suck at relationships. I don't care whether or not this thing with Jim goes anywhere, I'd just like to see something a little more productive than "get therapy, go chaste."

[O8h7w]

Dora doesn't need a lifetime of brooding and therapy to get over her issues. She needs to keep practicing so that she can learn to not suck at relationships. I don't care whether or not this thing with Jim goes anywhere, I'd just like to see something a little more productive than "get therapy, go chaste."

There is a problem with this, she has proved that being in a relationship is counterproductive with regards to sorting out her issues...

[stoutfiles]

Dora doesn't need a lifetime of brooding and therapy to get over her issues. She needs to keep practicing so that she can learn to not suck at relationships. I don't care whether or not this thing with Jim goes anywhere, I'd just like to see something a little more productive than "get therapy, go chaste."

There is a problem with this, she has proved that being in a relationship is counterproductive with regards to sorting out her issues...

She's had a relationship with someone she's not compatible with.  She's had past relationships, but they didn't work out.  Clearly this is a sign of someone who needs help, and a problem that doesn't afflict 95% of the human race.

[O8h7w]

Dora doesn't need a lifetime of brooding and therapy to get over her issues. She needs to keep practicing so that she can learn to not suck at relationships. I don't care whether or not this thing with Jim goes anywhere, I'd just like to see something a little more productive than "get therapy, go chaste."

There is a problem with this, she has proved that being in a relationship is counterproductive with regards to sorting out her issues...

She's had a relationship with someone she's not compatible with.  She's had past relationships, but they didn't work out.  Clearly this is a sign of someone who needs help, and a problem that doesn't afflict 95% of the human race.

It is a problem that 99% of humans run into, but I think it's only 15% or so who can't deal with it.

[JordanDH]

She's had a relationship with someone she's not compatible with.  She's had past relationships, but they didn't work out.  Clearly this is a sign of someone who needs help, and a problem that doesn't afflict 95% of the human race.

She had massive trust issues and was a massive hypocrite.  You seem to be the only one certain of the absolute incompatibility.

[Tiogyr]

She's had a relationship with someone she's not compatible with.  She's had past relationships, but they didn't work out.  Clearly this is a sign of someone who needs help, and a problem that doesn't afflict 95% of the human race.

She had massive trust issues and was a massive hypocrite.  You seem to be the only one certain of the absolute incompatibility.

Marten has massive self-image issues and is also a hypocrite (much like every character in the comic except for, maybe, Hannelore, who is basically the naive/innocent character for some reason in spite of how she started out in the comic). As for the incompatibility, why do you think they broke up if not because they were incompatible?

You can't throw two people with massive self-image issues like Dora and Marten (and radically different methods of dealing with those issues) into a relationship together and expect things to work out well.

[JordanDH]

Marten is significantly less of a hypocrite.  He wasn't flirting and then going mental at Dora for (not really) flirting.  Examples of the self-image issues please.  Other than his admission not being a great songwriter.  By any evidence in the comics, the relationship fell apart because of Dora's trust issues.  Without reading tons into what we think might have been going on in people's minds and in between comics, Dora herself said it ended because of her issues.

[Tiogyr]

Examples of the self-image issues please.

The first 500 strips of the comic.

[JordanDH]

Anything since then?

[Tiogyr]

Every time Marten opens his mouth and isn't poking fun at someone else, basically. Do you even read the comic?

[Is it cold in here?]

Please clarify: self-image too high, or too low? Do you mean "self-esteem"?

[Tiogyr]

Too low. Marten doesn't have a very high opinion of himself at all and people that are like that tend to suck terribly in pretty much any relationship they get into.

[pwhodges]

Just saying "the first 500 strips" and "every time he opens his mouth" is not useful.  An example of what you deem to be specifically expressive of low self-esteem would be more interesting.  I pressed Random a few times to see; these are the first four which had Marten in:  278 476, 646, not much low self-esteem there, I'd say; 1100, OK he's a bit down there, but I'd hardly say it was pathological given the context.

[stoutfiles]

Just saying "the first 500 strips" and "every time he opens his mouth" is not useful.  An example of what you deem to be specifically expressive of low self-esteem would be more interesting.  I pressed Random a few times to see; these are the first four which had Marten in:  278 476, 646, not much low self-esteem there, I'd say; 1100, OK he's a bit down there, but I'd hardly say it was pathological given the context.

Low self esteem traits:

Excessive will to please - Marten is the A-typical nice guy who puts up with things he shouldn't
Floating hostility - Complains about his problems to multiple people, gets very pissed sometimes.
Hypersensitivity to criticism - Marten has never took criticism well.
Chronic indecision - Marten isn't one to take initiative on anything.

Most of the QC cast have low self esteem.

[Tiogyr]

Just saying "the first 500 strips" and "every time he opens his mouth" is not useful.  An example of what you deem to be specifically expressive of low self-esteem would be more interesting.  I pressed Random a few times to see; these are the first four which had Marten in:  278 476, 646, not much low self-esteem there, I'd say; 1100, OK he's a bit down there, but I'd hardly say it was pathological given the context.

Yeah, I hit random four times and come up with 11, 37, 520 and 105 (all but the last one being relevant to what I was saying, with the last one pointing to some pretty big red flags as to where Dora's issues may be coming from). The point is that anyone that has actually been reading the comic is aware that Marten has pitiful self-esteem/image and would be a terrible friend "in the real world" (but everyone knows someone like him and they always feel sorry for the poor bastard because his life genuinely sucks).

[Is it cold in here?]

Marten's been good for the Pugnacious Peach.

[JordanDH]

Just saying "the first 500 strips" and "every time he opens his mouth" is not useful.  An example of what you deem to be specifically expressive of low self-esteem would be more interesting.  I pressed Random a few times to see; these are the first four which had Marten in:  278 476, 646, not much low self-esteem there, I'd say; 1100, OK he's a bit down there, but I'd hardly say it was pathological given the context.

Yeah, I hit random four times and come up with 11, 37, 520 and 105 (all but the last one being relevant to what I was saying, with the last one pointing to some pretty big red flags as to where Dora's issues may be coming from). The point is that anyone that has actually been reading the comic is aware that Marten has pitiful self-esteem/image and would be a terrible friend "in the real world" (but everyone knows someone like him and they always feel sorry for the poor bastard because his life genuinely sucks).

Do you think it's possible that you're not the only one that's been "actually reading the comic", and that you just have a different interpretation?  I don't think anyone's saying he loves himself, but the crippling self-doubt seems a bit of a stretch.  A lot's changed since those first comics, Marten's actually got a lot of friends.  The first two are more about dissatisfaction with his life than dissatisfaction with himself, the third seems to be said with a least partial tongue in cheek.

[DSL]

Is it so much self-esteem as a lifetime of conditioning to lay low, stay off the radar, be nice, don't assert? He grew up among strong, domiant people, sought them out later in life ... One gets used to one's role fairly quickly until one realizes one  hasn't gotten very far among the societally accepted road of advancement.

[Blackjoker]

Is it so much self-esteem as a lifetime of conditioning to lay low, stay off the radar, be nice, don't assert? He grew up among strong, domiant people, sought them out later in life ... One gets used to one's role fairly quickly until one realizes one  hasn't gotten very far among the societally accepted road of advancement.

Agreed, looking at how his mother behaved during her visit it seems more that Marten isn't unassertive so much as his mother surgically removed his spine around the time he was 4.

[tomart]

Agreed, looking at how his mother behaved during her visit it seems more that Marten isn't unassertive so much as his mother surgically removed his spine around the time he was 4.

THIS.

[jwhouk]

Is it so much self-esteem as a lifetime of conditioning to lay low, stay off the radar, be nice, don't assert? He grew up among strong, domiant people, sought them out later in life ... One gets used to one's role fairly quickly until one realizes one  hasn't gotten very far among the societally accepted road of advancement.

Agreed, looking at how his mother behaved during her visit it seems more that Marten isn't unassertive so much as his mother surgically removed his spine around the time he was 4.

...If this is the case, why isn't he playing hockey?

[Tiogyr]

Is it so much self-esteem as a lifetime of conditioning to lay low, stay off the radar, be nice, don't assert? He grew up among strong, domiant people, sought them out later in life ... One gets used to one's role fairly quickly until one realizes one  hasn't gotten very far among the societally accepted road of advancement.

Agreed, looking at how his mother behaved during her visit it seems more that Marten isn't unassertive so much as his mother surgically removed his spine around the time he was 4.

Offering the reason why Marten has low self-esteem contradicts the notion... how, exactly?

[DSL]

I read self-esteem as one's regard  of one's  own value. One need not NECESSARILY have low regard for one's self to be non-assertive. They can go together and frequently do, but it's not mandatory.

[pwhodges]

Just so.  Specifically, I would say that I am basically non-assertive, and I do not have low self-esteem.  Assertiveness has more than one aspect, of course; I avoid the conflict that could arise from asserting my choices against those of others, but I will take steps (within that) to do things I want to do for myself.

[Tiogyr]

I read self-esteem as one's regard  of one's  own value. One need not NECESSARILY have low regard for one's self to be non-assertive. They can go together and frequently do, but it's not mandatory.

There is a difference between simply being "non-assertive" and letting everyone you know just run over you all the time on any given thing.

I mean, what was the last time Marten was actually assertive about something that mattered? The time he moved halfway across the country for a girl that wasn't interested in him anymore in a fit of binge drinking fueled stupidity (remember, he was all set to back down again when Dora said "Fuck it, we're done").

[pwhodges]

I take it that when you say Marten was ready to back down, you are referring to 1798 in which he says he'll have to smooth things over.  Why do you call that backing down?  And what, in fact was his alternative - to have an all-out fight instead?  To force Dora to back down (or perhaps break her mentally if she wouldn't)?

As for being non-assertive - sure (comments about doormat or being run over by others are just value-judgement on the same thing, really).  The question is why does it matter?  As I just said, I've actually managed a pretty good life being no more assertive than Marten is portrayed.

[pwhodges]

<MODERATOR>

This thread has been more even-tempered than the one on therapy, but has shown hints of a similar fault at times.  Please read what I wrote in the other thread.

</MODERATOR>

[Tiogyr]

I take it that when you say Marten was ready to back down, you are referring to 1798 in which he says he'll have to smooth things over.  Why do you call that backing down?  And what, in fact was his alternative - to have an all-out fight instead?  To force Dora to back down (or perhaps break her mentally if she wouldn't)?

I was actually talking about the second-to-last panel of 1797. If Dora hadn't stormed off, Marten would've been begging her for forgiveness for having the gall to be upset with her. Marten, as he's always been written, really didn't have any alternatives that wouldn't have been completely out of character for him so I don't see why you're asking me how he should have acted. 1798 was just Marten venting his frustrations to someone that wouldn't challenge him and make him back down about it (like he did with Steve and others in the early strips when it came to Faye picking on him).

As for being non-assertive - sure (comments about doormat or being run over by others are just value-judgement on the same thing, really).  The question is why does it matter?  As I just said, I've actually managed a pretty good life being no more assertive than Marten is portrayed.

If someone goes through their life with pretty much every life-altering action determined by somebody else telling them what to do (with the one time they've done something on their own backfiring terribly) like Marten has, I'd posit they aren't anywhere near as happy as they think they are (as long as you'd allow that "content" does not actually equal "happy").

[pwhodges]

In both of those cases I'd say you are over-interpreting. 

In 1797 we don't know  what Marten was about to say - I could argue that it would precisely not  have been "OK, go and look at my porn", because there would have been no need for him to say that (as she was on her way), and if in his mind he'd backed down there would have been no need for him to say what he did in 1798 either.

As for my own life - no I have not been as non-functional as you conjecture.  But I would say that we don't have evidence that Marten is as non-functional as that either.  Sure, considering major life events, in 280ff he is steam-rollered into moving (but this does him no harm), and in 691 he gets himself a job (he been told about it - but using contacts for information like that is usual enough, and sensible), not a great job, but it enables him to get by comfortably enough.  OK, he's probably under-achieving, and aware of it - but that is neither uncommon nor actually harmful in itself.

[Tiogyr]

In both of those cases I'd say you are over-interpreting.  

In 1797 we don't know  what Marten was about to say - I could argue that it would precisely not  have been "OK, go and look at my porn", because there would have been no need for him to say that (as she was on her way), and if in his mind he'd backed down there would have been no need for him to say what he did in 1798 either.

What? Where did my post say that Marten would have said it was okay for her to look at his porn? Second to last frame, where Dora leaves the apartment. Or are you thinking she stormed off and looked at Marten's porn anyway for some reason?

As for my own life - no I have not been as non-functional as you conjecture.  But I would say that we don't have evidence that Marten is as non-functional as that either.

This entire argument debunked in a single comic (considering it was Dora that initiated the dating and not Marten).

[Elysiana]

I don't see how that debunks anything. Marten had eyes only for Faye for a very long time. Why would he have suddenly asked Dora out? He may have had no idea she was even into him because of the googly eyes for Faye.

And I'm not so sure he was about to beg for forgiveness in 1797 - I could see him saying, "No wait, I don't want to break up over this," but that doesn't make him spineless, just that he didn't feel it was a big enough issue to break up over.

[Blackjoker]

If you want to see one other time where Marten tried to be assertive, here. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1835

In it Marten finally stands up to his mother who came to visit uninvited and had been doing little more than belittling him and frustrating him and is then yelled at, publically humiliated, etc. Please note that this is apparently within a couple days of the breakup so Marten probably isn't in the best mental state right now anyway. Honestly looking at this comic it seems like Marten was almost mentally battered or conditioned into being passive. He probably has a fairly strong emotional endurance but yeah, he doesn't impose his will very well. I actually begin to wonder if part of how he and Steve became friends is that Marten is the prefect wingman, quiet, reserved, and passive Steve looks more dynamic by comparison and Marten won't upstage him or complain.

You know, on further reflection most of the cast could arguably use some therapy.

[pwhodges]

What? Where did my post say that Marten would have said it was okay for her to look at his porn? Second to last frame, where Dora leaves the apartment. Or are you thinking she stormed off and looked at Marten's porn anyway for some reason?

Sorry - I was distracted by work matters and messed up there...

[questionablecontentfan]

Well, judging from the latest comic, it's definitely not a business date.

[Blackjoker]

Well, judging from the latest comic, it's definitely not a business date.

Also, Jim seems to be trying to put his best foot square into his own mouth judging by the last panel.

[wrwight]

This entire argument debunked in a single comic (considering it was Dora that initiated the dating and not Marten).

But, but..the soup! What about the soup?

Seriously though, on the topic of Marten having low self-image, I think we all tend to put our own personal spin on fictional characters, especially in a setting such as this comic where a) there's entirely too much RL time to over analyze what's going on in comic time, and b) You don't always get to see what the characters are thinking or know their motivations. I think that's one of the reasons this comic is so popular though, since we can each read into it what we want, and therefore we get a sense that we "understand" the characters more so than if Jeph were to spell it all out for us (plus that would make the comic timeline drag on to the point of ridiculousness).

As to his being a pushover with low self esteem, I think there's enough evidence to the contrary (1098, 147 & 148, 1203, 1006, etc.) that it would be difficult to put him into such a simple box. My personal spin transfers aspects of myself onto Marten (since he's commonly seen as the "every-man" character I'd say a lot of us do that), but I see him as kind of a contradiction. He knows he's a pretty good guy, comparatively, but he still doesn't think he's good enough in many situations. I think he has a pretty good self-image, though.

Anyway, more on topic, I think this Jim thing is going to flame out pretty quickly, at least if he doesn't do something quick. He isn't off to the best of starts (not the worst either, I suppose).

[idontunderstand]

"Crippling self-doubt" seems to describe someone who can't look himself in the mirror or get out of bed in the morning. The hyperbole is thick as always..

[Tiogyr]

"Crippling self-doubt" seems to describe someone who can't look himself in the mirror or get out of bed in the morning. The hyperbole is thick as always..

Only if you're being deliberately obtuse, because if someone is having difficulty functioning due to their self-doubts then it is, in fact, crippling (and Marten does have difficulty with it, he's always second-guessing himself).

[guayec]

"Crippling self-doubt" seems to describe someone who can't look himself in the mirror or get out of bed in the morning. The hyperbole is thick as always..

Only if you're being deliberately obtuse, because if someone is having difficulty functioning due to their self-doubts then it is, in fact, crippling (and Marten does have difficulty with it, he's always second-guessing himself).

Add to that Dora's doubts about Marten's true feelings and you have a smothering mountain of doubts!

Mmm, if Marten suffers a case of crippling self-doubt, does Dora suffer one of everyone-else-doubt? She's always second-guessing her friends.

[pwhodges]

if someone is having difficulty functioning due to their self-doubts then it is, in fact, crippling (and Marten does have difficulty with it, he's always second-guessing himself)

I'm sorry, but I really can't see anywhere that Marten is having difficulty functioning.  Feeling sad from time to time is not the same thing.

[Tiogyr]

if someone is having difficulty functioning due to their self-doubts then it is, in fact, crippling (and Marten does have difficulty with it, he's always second-guessing himself)

I'm sorry, but I really can't see anywhere that Marten is having difficulty functioning.  Feeling sad from time to time is not the same thing.

Someone just linked to 1006, if you needed an example.

[pwhodges]

I sorry, you call that: "having difficulty functioning"?  Are we writing the same language?

[akronnick]

Marten was having some anxiety but he got over it.

New relationships are stressful, a few jitters at significant moments (like the first "I love you") is to be expected. It's how we deal with those jitters that determines whether we can function. Do you tell your SO about your feelings, as Marten is doing here, or do you run screaming, unable to quiet the voices that tell you that doom is around every corner.

[wrwight]

See, apparently 1006 is an example of a difference in perception. To me (and apparently others) it is evidence of a well-adjusted Marten (i.e. he doesn't just say "I love you" after it's said to him, and it doesn't scare him off either. Instead he expresses his doubts and discusses them with his SO like an adult). To you it's an example of "crippling self-doubt" for X (possibly just as valid) reason.

[Tiogyr]

See, apparently 1006 is an example of a difference in perception. To me (and apparently others) it is evidence of a well-adjusted Marten (i.e. he doesn't just say "I love you" after it's said to him, and it doesn't scare him off either. Instead he expresses his doubts and discusses them with his SO like an adult). To you it's an example of "crippling self-doubt" for X (possibly just as valid) reason.

It has as much to do with what he's saying as the body language in the strip (jittering around, looking everywhere but at Dora/not making eye contact while he's explaining himself, etc.).

[wrwight]

Well that's an iconic example of an awkward situation. I don't think it's a sign of self doubt that Marten feels awkward and unsure in such a situation. The important thing was how he dealt with it, or rather that he actually dealt with it instead of being passive and shying away from the situation.

[Tiogyr]

Well that's an iconic example of an awkward situation. I don't think it's a sign of self doubt that Marten feels awkward and unsure in such a situation. The important thing was how he dealt with it, or rather that he actually dealt with it instead of being passive and shying away from the situation.

While it's true that it's a good thing he didn't panic and run away, the point still stands that someone with a bit more self confidence could have handled that discussion much better (not looking like they were planning an escape route because they were afraid the person they were talking to might react violently, as was common at that point of the comic).

[Carl-E]

I don't see how he could have handled it better.  He did a great job communicating.  If you mean he could have handled it differently, sure, he could've just been (falsely) confident about it. 

But is that really "better"?  Not for the relationship, not in the long run.  People who know you can tell when you're putting on a "brave face", and it probably would've made Dora's insecurities that much worse, prompting worse reactions earlier.  Better he be honest, and they work together towards happiness, than he be falsely confident "for her sake", and case a bumpier ride and an earlier crash and burn. 

I know, I know, some will say it wold have been better to get it all over with earlier, but then he would just have been another in a long line of failures instead of the "one good thing" that got trashed. 

I'm in wait-and-see mode about Jim.  Was that last complememt an over-the-top joke, or was he taking Dora seriously?  Don't know his personality well enough yet...

[annietiger]

As someone who relates to Dora on a very personal level, I think going on a date with Jim could be healthy for her. For someone like Dora, dating while in therapy is one of the best ways to really work through issues -- not only are you talking about them, but you are seeing and working through their manifestations on a weekly basis.

Also, we have no idea what this date really is. It could be something as simple as dinner, and Dora really doesn't seem all that interested. Maybe this is a way for her to see she can be happy on her own & realize she doesn't need a relationship.

Furthermore, I feel like Marten & Dora's relationship troubles are being blamed entirely on Dora. True, she did have a lot to do with it but at the same time when you have a problem you are supposed to speak up and address it head on -- not complain to your friends like Marten did, whereas when Dora felt insecure about something she spoke up. I think Marten could also benefit from therapy, or at least asserting himself more instead of letting people take advantage of him. I think both Marten and Dora are pretty bad at relationships!

[Tiogyr]

I don't see how he could have handled it better.  He did a great job communicating.  If you mean he could have handled it differently, sure, he could've just been (falsely) confident about it. 

But is that really "better"?  Not for the relationship, not in the long run.  People who know you can tell when you're putting on a "brave face", and it probably would've made Dora's insecurities that much worse, prompting worse reactions earlier.  Better he be honest, and they work together towards happiness, than he be falsely confident "for her sake", and case a bumpier ride and an earlier crash and burn. 

I was saying that if he said the exact same words, but was making eye contact with her and not being a jittery mess looking like he was about to bolt if she didn't react well to what he was saying, it would have been a better way of handling it and more indicative of someone with a bit more self-esteem than Marten has.

I know, I know, some will say it wold have been better to get it all over with earlier, but then he would just have been another in a long line of failures instead of the "one good thing" that got trashed. 

I'm in wait-and-see mode about Jim.  Was that last complememt an over-the-top joke, or was he taking Dora seriously?  Don't know his personality well enough yet...

That was definitely Jim joking (and as I pointed out in the WCDT, it's the exact type of joke Marten would have made, so people calling Jim a creep are applying double-standards).