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[pwhodges]

when you have a problem you are supposed to speak up and address it head on -- not complain to your friends like Marten did,

Marten spoke up several times, and each time Dora upped the ante which led him to complain to his friends as well.  Hardly surprising, really.

[annietiger]

when you have a problem you are supposed to speak up and address it head on -- not complain to your friends like Marten did,

Marten spoke up several times, and each time Dora upped the ante which led him to complain to his friends as well.  Hardly surprising, really.

Yes, but if Marten had such a terrible time with it, shouldn't he have been the one to end it? At what point does Marten step up and say, enough is enough? If Marten was tired of doing the same song-and-dance routine, then he shouldn't have done it. Instead he goes along with whatever is happening. What does he really want? The point I am trying to make is that there were definite flaws on both sides. Neither one of them conducted themselves as mature adults, thus why the relationship was doomed to fail.

[pwhodges]

If Marten was tired of doing the same song-and-dance routine, then he shouldn't have done it.

If only life were so simple! 

One can so easily be tired of some aspects of a relationship and yet want to preserve it for other reasons; one can want to sort something out, but still be tired of doing it.  Perhaps you haven't been there yet; I have.

[lepetitfromage]

He's Bizarro Sven. That is creepy. I thought it was unhealthy for Marten to try and see Bizarro Dora but it is creepier for Dora to date Bizarro Sven. Given that the character seems like a bad fanfiction character this just makes it all too disturbing. The night should end with Dora who looked terrified when he asked her out saying goodbye, apologizing for just not being interested even though he's a really great guy (probably) and the two continuing their business partnership amicably. This is the ideal outcome. It won't happen. He's going to let his hostility towards his ex leak into the relationship while the issues she has not yet come close to dealing with poison it from her end. No more than two months have passed since she sabotaged her relationship with uncontrolled jealousy. If you want to call it understandable fine but I find it hard to understand an emotion that pops up unexpectedly and then disappears as though nothing happened and isn't brought up until it pops up again to wreak havoc like a hurricane. The point is she is not ready to even go out on a date with someone. two months is not enough therapy time for her to be at a point where the problems that destroyed her last relationship are not affecting her judgement negatively.

And for all of you who say it wasn't Dora's fault YES it was. She admitted it. She admitted that she knew there was nothing going on between him and Faye, the person who introduced her to Marten, and that her problems weren't just getting better. Ignore it and it will go away is an immature attitude and it does not work.

Thinking of Jim as Bizzaro Sven is just....eeeugh. I mean....perhaps? But it disturbs me. I don't think they ALL have to have bizarro world counterparts- it just kind of works for Marten to be able to make connections to the few main girls because he needs a replacement for COD (be it temporary or not).

As for his intro being likened to bad fanfic....I personally don't think so. Marten needed another coffee shop (it's a college town so it is chock full of them...as we saw (hah. hello unintentional bad coffee pun.)). There's a 50/50 chance that the owner of said coffee shop is a male. I would agree if he was obviously perfect for Dora, but he's flawed like anyone else. BUT- I don't feel that his "hostility" is as serious as some people might think. He's recently divorced and it seems as though his ex took him for quite a bit. I imagine him going through the typical stages of grieving- he has probably worked his way through certain ones and right now it just so happens that he's dealing with resentment (not to mention that as a small business owner, she probably left him hurting financially).


Was Dora's breakup with Marten her fault? Absolutely. But outside factors made her already delicate state of mind turn completely irrational. Dora isn't completely batty but she is on the spectrum of mental illness. This sentence particularly struck me-  I find it hard to understand an emotion that pops up unexpectedly and then disappears as though nothing happened and isn't brought up until it pops up again to wreak havoc like a hurricane

Well, my friend....you are lucky. Us "crazies" as pretty darn good at pushing those feelings to the bottom of the pile, back of the mind (mine like to stay in the pit of my stomach with occasional trips upstairs). But wherever one decides to keep them- that's where they stay hidden from the outside world until some random event triggers our irrationality and we just pop and REALLY look nuts.

The harm in a relationship right now is a step back means she's back OUT of therapy, not dealing with her problems and being the same way that she was with Marten.

I don't think it's harmful for Dora to go on a date. UNLESS she jumps into a relationship and throws away therapy. Just because you're in a committed relationship, doesn't mean you have to stop going to a psychologist (or LCSW or whatever the fancy title of her lady is). Two months of therapy won't magically make her issues disappear but I'm sure that her therapist is helping her scrape the surface a bit. I think this could be good for her if she was open with Jim about taking things slowly and carefully. Not that she should verbal vomit on him....but just give him the heads up that she's a little apprehensive (if a relationship happens). I think if anything, Jim's attitude towards his ex and their divorce might actually help Dora get past some of her jealousy. She'll find comfort in his complete disdain for her. While it's debated whether or not there were feelings between Faye and Marten, Dora knows she was his second choice and they both interacted with Faye practically every day. It's a wonder how she kept the crazy at bay for so long!

PS- to those that ask why Marten should have kept up the song and dance for Dora- they were in a relationship. By that logic- if he was so frustrated with her ways then he could have taken it upon himself to leave. Keep in mind that in her head, Dora may have considered this doing Marten a favor. Maybe it is a kick in the nuts to Marten, but the circumstances that surrounded them were just making their relationship a ticking time bomb.

everything you said

i concur!

[lepetitfromage]

by the way, hi i'm new. same old schpeel- long time lurker/obsess-er

[NotAwesomeAnymore]

People in this thread are reminding me of someone. Someone whose strategy was to find Marten's flaws because that would somehow mean Dora was doing okay. Oh wait, that was Dora.

[annietiger]

If Marten was tired of doing the same song-and-dance routine, then he shouldn't have done it.

If only life were so simple! 

One can so easily be tired of some aspects of a relationship and yet want to preserve it for other reasons; one can want to sort something out, but still be tired of doing it.  Perhaps you haven't been there yet; I have.

Yes, I have been there. And in those cases, I didn't do the song and dance, I expressed how frustrating it was to relive the same fight again and again and how pointless and counterproductive it was. Sometimes I waited it out, sometimes I left.

And -- to NotAwesomeAnymore -- finding Marten's flaws doesn't mean Dora is doing okay, because she's not. If she is continuously getting herself into bad relationships and is freaked out by not being abused, that is a huge red flag. However, just because Dora is a little messed up in the head doesn't mean that Marten is perfect, or anywhere close to it. He's got issues he should address as well.

[pwhodges]

I didn't do the song and dance, I expressed how frustrating it was to relive the same fight again and again and how pointless and counterproductive it was.

But that is  the song and dance - like here.

[Baeronvonbleat]

I gues the opinion that Marten isn't perfect is valid... but hsi imperfections wasn't what broke up the relationship.  If they broke up because she didn't like his personality, because they didn't click, she wasn't attracted to him, etc.  But Dora broke up with Marten because she couldn't get past her own issue, and after the fact, everything we've seen is Dora not really reacting.  She's just going along with business as usual, while Marten is actually resolving his emotions.

From the very flat break up to no reaction, it's not a person handling well.

Unless she honestly didn't feel anything for Marten, in which case there's no problem with moving on, and her getting on with her life post break-up is fine.  I think if that's the case... I like her a bit less... I'm still half expecting that moment when her emotonal wall breaks and the gushy stuff comes out.  So in my opinion, she's heartless or bottling her emotions <.<

[Tiogyr]

I gues the opinion that Marten isn't perfect is valid... but hsi imperfections wasn't what broke up the relationship.  If they broke up because she didn't like his personality, because they didn't click, she wasn't attracted to him, etc.  But Dora broke up with Marten because she couldn't get past her own issue, and after the fact, everything we've seen is Dora not really reacting.  She's just going along with business as usual, while Marten is actually resolving his emotions.

From the very flat break up to no reaction, it's not a person handling well.

Unless she honestly didn't feel anything for Marten, in which case there's no problem with moving on, and her getting on with her life post break-up is fine.  I think if that's the case... I like her a bit less... I'm still half expecting that moment when her emotonal wall breaks and the gushy stuff comes out.  So in my opinion, she's heartless or bottling her emotions <.<

If a dude does what Dora is doing, he's a player, etc.; but since it's a woman doing it she's a whore or she's a heartless bitch. 

[NotAwesomeAnymore]

Also, you're totes cherry-picking. There was a huge pile of tissues when she broke up with Marten, if I'm remembering correctly. She'd certainly been crying. When his mother came to see her, she was remorseful and expecting punishment. Nearly cried then too. Hell, she broke down with Hanners when a guy ordered a latte. Any more than that and she would be whiney and annoying. You wouldn't want to be that person with Faye around...

I'm personally in the "BUT WE DON'T KNOW ANYTHING" camp on this issue. I think a possible way this arc could go is we get to see a therapy session where she describes how the date went and that horrible moment when she bumped into Marten!

[annietiger]

everything we've seen is Dora not really reacting.  She's just going along with business as usual, while Marten is actually resolving his emotions.

From the very flat break up to no reaction, it's not a person handling well.

Dora doesn't have the leisure of wallowing in grief like Marten (kind of) does. She is running her own business and has to find a place to live.
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1848
And I think, by stating she can't feel sorry for herself all the time, she's taking a more mature approach to this breakup. Is she sad? Yes, but she knows getting hung up on the breakup isn't going to do her any good.

She's previously been dealing with Sven, who as we've determined is a major source of her issues, and who knows if her saved drafts are about Marten or not? My guess is yes, but there's no real proof for that.

After the breakup we didn't see as much as Dora for a while, so it's hard to say how she was dealing with it. I'd say right now, she and Marten seem to be in the same stage of grief.

[pwhodges]

If a dude does what Dora is doing, he's a player, etc.;

Yea, and not everyone admires that either, of course.

[wrwight]

Okay, I do have to admit, Jim is growing on me, at the very least as an entertaining character. Considering the general tone of the comic, his comments that could be creepy are starting to come off as witty and hilarious. I think I did the same thing with Hannelore at first. I couldn't decide if she was creepy or funny, but now she's everyone's favorite (I know, not everyone's favorite, but you know, hyperbole is contagious on here I guess).

[questionablecontentfan]

Hmmm...you know, Jim likes his girls a little bit younger.

I just wanna use your love tonight...


 

[jwhouk]

It does not help that Jeph keeps using the word "creepy" when talking about him in newsposts.

[NotAwesomeAnymore]

Psht, what does Jeph know? Jim's awesome.

[TheEvilDog]

Psht, what does Jeph know? Jim's awesome.

Methinks Jeph knows more than we mere mortals shall ever hope to imagine....Right, no more reading Macbeth before I got to sleep.

[wrwight]

I just wanna use your love tonight...

This made me almost spit out my drink laughing (or rather, it would have, had I been drinking something when I read it).

[ecstaticjoy]

I just wanna use your love tonight...

This made me almost spit out my drink laughing (or rather, it would have, had I been drinking something when I read it).

and now I have it stuck in my head!

[stoutfiles]

How is Jim a creeper?  A creeper is, by definition, someone who stares too long, stalks you, or a combination of the two.  While dating young might be creepy, it does not make Jim a creeper.

How old is Dora again? If she's 27, this relationship is perfectly fine under the (age/2 + 7) rule.  If not, well, Jim is at least honest about his personality and what he likes.  He's not holding her hostage.

Jeph doesn't like Jim so naturally this relationship will fail.  I'd argue that Jim is no worse than Angus when we met him though, since Angus actually was a creeper.

[questionablecontentfan]

I think Jeph is a little too hard on his characters sometimes.

Like...calling Tai creepy for asking Marten's mom to be her mom. I thought that was adorable, not at all creepy.

[Is it cold in here?]

Dora was 26 at the start of the comic. She's a year younger than Sven, who has told the Pugnacious Peach that he's now 28.

[jwhouk]

I just wanna use your love tonight...

This made me almost spit out my drink laughing (or rather, it would have, had I been drinking something when I read it).

and now I have it stuck in my head!

The problem is that the actual lyric is "You know I like my girls a little bit older."

[questionablecontentfan]

The problem is that the actual lyric is "You know I like my girls a little bit older."

Yes, I know. I was just playing around.

Whoa, I never even noticed that. Is that really Jim? Maybe it's just a guy who looked like Jim. And that comic you linked to doesn't have Jim in it...

[questionablecontentfan]

Look at him! His face is barely visible, right underneath Steve's chin in the first panel.[/size]

Are you serious? LOL.

[DSL]

OK, Tender, you made (some of) us look.

Slow clap for the 1030 link.    Eternal curses for the ... Other ... Link. 

[annietiger]

I looked. derp.

[mary tyler murder]

Jim is definitely creepy enough to be a small fraction as creepy as Tai.

Not according to Faye.

Faye's attraction to creepers doesn't make him not a creeper.

[TheEvilDog]

Well, here's hoping Jim has plenty of Mace in case things get ugly. 

[questionablecontentfan]

Ugh, what a bitch Faye is.

[TheEvilDog]

Ugh, what a bitch Faye is.

She's a bitch because she's concerned about her friend going out with a guy they both barely know? Or was that just a random comment thrown out there?

[questionablecontentfan]

Well, other than telling Sven to fuck off for no reason, she's a bitch because she's generally an ill tempered, cruel, thoughtless shrew.

I don't care how many people say "she's changed." I hate her and always will, because she can't undo all the terrible things she did.

[Carl-E]

OK fan, take a few deep breaths...

Fae has done a lot of things, but few (if any) could be described as terrible.  Ill tempered at times (aren't we all?), but I'd scacely call her cruel  or thoughtless (at least, not intentionally so). 

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I can imagine the occasional pounding and nipple tweak she gave Marten in the early days are part of it.  Much like the primary school mating dances that take place on any playground.  Faye was stuck in a very bad place and working through it as best she cold (which was arguably not very well).  In the 500-510 strips we found out why, and why she was (again, uniintentionally) stringing Marten along.  She was  attracted to him, would've wanted it to go further, but couldn't.  And she (eventually) let him know what was going on.  Then got help.  And is now getting better.  In every sense of the word.  Yes, she knocked him down when he made that drunken pass, but that was necessary (self defense, look at her stance), and for how drunk he was, all she probably did was push him over. 

As for her yelling at Sven in 854, that was prompted by other occurences, not by Sven, and while she clearly hadn't thought it out from his point of view, she was a bit stressed at the time! 

As Jeph has said, and Faye just s easily easily could, "Clearly I have made some bad decisions".  As someone else said, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone." 

I can empathize with Faye.  Hell, with most of the cast.  I'm still not sure if it's a gift or a curse! 

[TheEvilDog]

I can empathize with Faye.  Hell, with most of the cast.  I'm still not sure if it's a gift or a curse! 

Well if you can empathize with Pintsize I strongly suggest you seek professional help. And possibly get fitted for a straitjacket...

[Carl-E]

I said, "most". 


Although I have  been a teenage boy. 

[questionablecontentfan]

OK fan, take a few deep breaths...

Fae has done a lot of things, but few (if any) could be described as terrible.  Ill tempered at times (aren't we all?), but I'd scacely call her cruel  or thoughtless (at least, not intentionally so).  

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I can imagine the occasional pounding and nipple tweak she gave Marten in the early days are part of it.  Much like the primary school mating dances that take place on any playground.  Faye was stuck in a very bad place and working through it as best she cold (which was arguably not very well).  In the 500-510 strips we found out why, and why she was (again, uniintentionally) stringing Marten along.  She was  attracted to him, would've wanted it to go further, but couldn't.  And she (eventually) let him know what was going on.  Then got help.  And is now getting better.  In every sense of the word.  Yes, she knocked him down when he made that drunken pass, but that was necessary (self defense, look at her stance), and for how drunk he was, all she probably did was push him over.  

As for her yelling at Sven in 854, that was prompted by other occurences, not by Sven, and while she clearly hadn't thought it out from his point of view, she was a bit stressed at the time!  

As Jeph has said, and Faye just s easily easily could, "Clearly I have made some bad decisions".  As someone else said, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."  

I can empathize with Faye.  Hell, with most of the cast.  I'm still not sure if it's a gift or a curse!  

Yeah, I know people will always try to talk me out of hating Faye, but it's not gonna happen.

How she treated Marten is a big part of it. She did not unintentionally lead him along. I don't care that she "couldn't." She knew how he felt and she messed with him for a very long time and acted like a total bitch. She was mean to Penelope, Hanners, Dora, Raven, and other people.

And if she was so unable to have a relationship, why was she somehow able to fuck her friend's brother? How convenient. Screwing with Dora and screwing over Marten at the same time. Clever.

And though it's probably not fair of me, yes, loving Marigold as I do, it's hard not to add that to the list of Faye's bullshit deeds. I get that Marigold was never gonna be with Angus, but leave it to Faye to rub some nice salt in Mari's wounds. Marigold is a far better woman than I. I would not even talk to Faye.

In other words, if I met someone like Faye in real life, it would get ugly fast. She'd probably pick on me for being shy/weird, and act like a total bitch.

So yeah, I hate her.

[stoutfiles]

I have to agree, Faye is a pretty horrible person.  She's rude to just about everyone she meets, uses way too much physical violence, and attributes all her indecisions to events from her past, not caring who gets screwed over because of it.  The physical violence attribute is never cool, but everyone is just "yuk yuk, that's our Faye" when she gets violent. 

She has gotten better, but not really. It's just her personality.  Shell do what she wants and threaten death to anyone who disagrees.

[Is it cold in here?]

Why does the rest of the cast like her?

Is it your point that redeeming qualities don't make bad qualities disappear and that a person should still be held accountable for them?

[questionablecontentfan]

It's funny how it never seems to occur to any of the rest of the cast that they could just, you know, not talk to her or hang out with her. They have no reason to put up with her shit, no matter what she's been through. I think her using her past as an excuse to treat people like that is pathetic.

Why does the rest of the cast like her?

No idea. It could be because some of them are attracted to her, the rest of them...low self esteem and other issues.

I also don't forgive her for calling Hanners "crazy lady" and asking her where to find a therapist. What a bitch.

[TheEvilDog]

But we also see moments when the rest of the cast throw their own insults at Faye. They rarely put up with her shit for long and will call her out on it.

[Carl-E]

She did not unintentionally lead him along.

I don't think it was intentional.  She was clearly attracted to him,and fo all we know this was her first attempt to get close to someone since ditching her "problems" and moving north.  I think what we saw was someone starting a mating dance, and suddenly finding herself unable to go through with it - and also suddenly realizing why. 

And if she was so unable to have a relationship, why was she somehow able to fuck her friend's brother? How convenient. Screwing with Dora and screwing over Marten at the same time. Clever.

No, not clever, but typical.  She started therapy and suddenly swung to the other end of the pendulum, diving into a purely physical relationship.  It didn't work either. 

...I get that Marigold was never gonna be with Angus, but leave it to Faye to rub some nice salt in Mari's wounds. Marigold is a far better woman than I. I would not even talk to Faye.

Maybe I missed that - are you talking about the party, and Faye's "Oh shit, she knows!"  moment?  Because before that, she was trying to protect  Marigold's feelings. 

In other words, if I met someone like Faye in real life, it would get ugly fast. She'd probably pick on me for being shy/weird, and act like a total bitch.

So yeah, I hate her.

I can see that.   I know people like both Mari and Faye.  Neither is better than the other, but it's rare that they can get along. 

[questionablecontentfan]

I actually wanted to jump through the screen and choke Faye when she snarked about the "easily manipulated, passive" (or something thereabouts) Penelope she'd come to know.

Yeah, I hate Faye. I can see I'm not alone in that either, though I don't think anyone here hates her quite as much as I do. I'm proud of it too. I guess Jeph Jacques would be pleased that his character could spur such emotions, but truthfully, I don't know how fictional Faye really is. His rendering of her seems to recall a person he really knew.

[questionablecontentfan]

I guess I'm protective of my fellow shy/awkward ladies, and seeing a bitch like Faye picking on them gets me like nothing else.

Protect Marigold's feelings? *laughs uncontrollably*

Um, yeah, Marigold is much better than Faye. And generally speaking, cool, interesting people like Marigold ARE much better than manipulative, cowardly, evil bitches like Faye.

Not to be sexist, but as a woman, I think I have a better understanding of how truly shitty it feels to be on the receiving end of someone like Faye's nastiness. And that's why I hate the bitch so much.

<moderator>Immoderate language removed</moderator>

[pwhodges]

Yeah, I hate Faye. [...] I guess Jeph Jacques would be pleased that his character could spur such emotions [...]

I think I have a better understanding of how truly shitty it feels to be on the receiving end of someone like Faye's nastiness. And that's why I hate the bitch so much.

But consider Jeph's view quoted at the end of the "Conduct" sticky thread at the top of this forum.  It goes like this (my emphasis):

For what it's worth, I don't care if people overanalyze things. I mean, I think it's stupid, and they're wrong 99% of the time, but that's kind of what forums are FOR. It's the stupid arguing, the creepy character-fetishization, and the "I hate character X no matter what and will drag this into every single discussion" idiocy that I have a problem with.

[Carl-E]

Protect Marigold's feelings? *laughs uncontrollably*

OK, maybe I went a bit far.  But they tried...

Mainly, Faye ran scared as soon as she found out Mari had feelings for Angus.  After that, they literally had no interaction at all.  Others did try to spare her feelings, though, before Tai unknowingly blurted it out.  And as is frequently the case, it only made things worse. 

pwhodges is right, I'm not gonna talk you out of your dislike for Faye.  I suppose I'm just trying to get you to realize that no one, not even someone who's coping mechanisms are as rough hewn as Faye's, is a totally despicable person. 

[waiting for Godwin]

[Welu]

Maybe it's because I relate to Faye a lot but I both empathise and sympathise with her. I've had my share of issues and accidentally screwed over some friends (not as extreme as Faye/Marten drama but still, was a bit of a jerk) and worked through my issues with a mix of their support and therapy.

The only time I can think of her being intentionally cruel, which even then sounds too strong, was to Wil when he was trying to ask out Penelope. She did feel bad about it once she found out he was friends with Sven even though nothing bad happened between Wil and Penelope because of it.

We saw how Faye reacted to sleeping with Sven. It was an impulse decision that at first she instantly regretted, as far to get an appointment with her therapist as soon as she could. Sven is the one who wanted to continue having fun when she initially wanted to keep it a one time thing.She continued the sexbuddy relationship (by accident, sort of) after telling Dora and Marten what happened and apologizing for it, after Dora admitted to overreacting.

In summary, I guess I'm just saying I don't think it's really fair to say hooking up with Sven was to intentionally screw over Marten and Dora since it's pretty much said in the comic that she didn't do it for that reason.

As Marten says: "She's not evil, she's just kind of a bitch sometimes".

*Edit: Pointing out I'm not trying to change anyone's feelings. I just saw the Sven/Faye hookup differently and wanted to say.

[Tiogyr]

cool, interesting people like Marigold

Yeah, I was kind of with you on the "Faye is kind of a bitch" thing, but come on. Marigold a cool, interesting person? Really?

She's a closet dwelling, Yaoi/Hentai collecting MMO nerd. That's pretty much the exact opposite of cool and interesting.

[Carl-E]

...they literally had no interaction at all. 

I suddenly realized (whilst walking my dogs) that there was the whole bibliokleptic incident between Faye finding out Mari had Angus-cravings and the party.  And, while Faye did  make fun of Mari's predicament, there was no direct berating.  She also tried to warn her away from Sven while Dora worked the other angle, and even shielded her. 

Not evil.  Not entirely nice either, but not a total bitch. 

[wrwight]

Tiogyr, I'm pretty sure you're in the presence of a large number of either current or former closet dwelling anime/manga watching/collecting, MMO nerds, as well as a large number of people whose best friends are said people, even if they are not. We understand that a shy people are interesting, and usually have a lot more depth than they tend to show at first, so to call them uncool or uninteresting is really showing that either you've never really gotten to know some of those types of people, or you managed to hit the few that really are just weird and sometimes kind of gross (because those people are out there too, perpetuating the stereotype), but that's only a tiny fraction. The overwhelming majority are awesome people who just need to come out of their shell a little, and Marigold seems to be one of those types of people.

Of course, this is the internet, you're welcome to disagree with me if you like (hmm, that sounds like I'm implying that in RL you aren't welcome to disagree with me..), but that's how I see it, and I'd be surprised if I'm alone.

As far as the Faye-haters, I know it's pointless to argue against someone who has declared multiple times nothing will change their mind, but don't forget how Faye has been there for her friends. We've all known that abrasive person that we put up with because we know that underneath it he/she cares sincerely, and is fiercely loyal. If you haven't known that person, you probably will before you die.