Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
Why does Dora need therapy?
pwhodges:
--- Quote from: tender on 13 Jun 2011, 14:52 ---That "happy face" is a facet of his personality that's linked to how he acts, not only in relationships, but in everyday life. [...] I think Marten's façade is especially telling when looking at the relationship: Sometimes he pouted, but he kept trying to smooth things over with a happy face, a song and dance... all up to the end, where he is left staring blankly at Dora as she tells him it is over.
--- End quote ---
If I come over as unduly sympathetic to Marten, this is because in certain respects I really am (or once was) like him; I have said before that some of Marten's low-key approach to life is just like mine, but it didn't stop me making a good-enough fist of it in the end.
There are also some parallels between the breakup of my first marriage (after 22 years) and the breakup of Marten and Dora's relationship (though I wouldn't press that too far, which is why I've only occasionally mentioned specific things). When I said that Dora seemed to be blaming Marten, even though only by implication, that is because I recognised it as very close to how my first wife spoke of me - so I had real-life reinforcement for that interpretation. I should say that the man my former wife went on to marry (in spite of not facing her issues, as I saw it), and with whom she'd previously been having an affair, has proved an excellent partner for her - and indeed I also like him very much.
Blackjoker:
--- Quote from: tender on 13 Jun 2011, 12:09 ---Here are four more quotes that sum up Marten and Dora's relationship pretty well:
"Oh Dora, you're SO IRRATIONAL! Sit down and let me explain how you're being CRAZY and I'm ALWAYS RIGHT, 'cause I'm such a NICE GUY. Bluh blee bloo blah bloo."
"Marten, you could be trying to patch things up with Dora, but instead you're sitting here complaining to us. I mean, isn't sitting here blaming all your problems on women kind of... sexist?"
"It's hard to tell sometimes with him, because Marten tries to put a happy face on everything."
"Has he always been this inept with the ladies?"
--- End quote ---
It would probably help on the first one if it wasn't technically accurate, IE in most of the cases Dora WAS being irrational. Marten might not have phrased things as cleanly as he could have but Doras behavior was not rational, she even frequently realized that if she was given a bit of time or a more aggressive confrontation on the subject.
The second one, Marten was frustrated and did what plenty of guys in that situation do, blame women as a whole, not a good or healthy thing but it does happen. It's also worth noting that moments later he paused and was willing to blame all men for the worlds problems, with Hannelore, the person who said it in the first place joining in on that.
For the next one, Marten tries hard to make others happy and keep things from blowing up, Marten might have had an easier time with the relationship and it might still be there if he had either been more willing to confront Dora (IE not be in conflict avoidance mode) or if he had been willing to be blunter on things. Then again it might have only exacerbated things.
Followed by "He always had the bumbling sweetheart aspect, it's how his father got me" Now admittedly his father was gay, so there is some room for quibbling there.
As for stuff with the vespavenger and government and the like it's again worth noting that most of these were not caused my Marten, instead these were wandering plots that happened to fall on him.
pwhodges:
--- Quote from: stoutfiles on 13 Jun 2011, 15:13 ---(stuff)
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So basically you're saying that friends shouldn't give you advice, because it's up to you to make your own choices, including mistakes; and friends that are prepared to tell you what they think of your behaviour are not true friends? That sounds to me like a recipe for loneliness in old age, or earlier, even.
Blackjoker:
--- Quote from: tender on 13 Jun 2011, 14:52 ---
--- Quote from: TRVA123 on 13 Jun 2011, 13:15 ---Even from a strictly pro-Dora perspective...
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This is where I'd usually recuse myself from the discussion, because I'm not a member of a some kind of bizarre Pro-XXX character faction. Such a polarizing environment... I simply think many put all of the blame on Dora while cutting Marten too much slack, looking past his problems. Enough slack to hang himself. Those problems are often detrimental in relationships. He has some serious character flaws, which is fine! Tying into what DSL wrote earier, I don't think any of the characters are perfect 100% of the time, not by a longshot.
Besides, it's really tiresome to scroll past the same "I think she should wait longer!" comments; much similar to the "I think Marten should wait longer!" ones when Padma first appeared.
Anyway, finding instances of when you consider Dora to be acting irrational doesn't really mean anything to me, since I've already mentioned it's easy to call some of her behavior irrational. Just as you can find a lot of instances where Marten is not acting in a way conducive to a healthy relationship. Just as you can also find a lot of examples where they are both acting fine together. Also, while Dora knew about some of the baggage, it's very hard to deny that the baggage didn't cause any drama, which was my point when I replied to Paul's comment.
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I would argue the difference here though is that Marten wasn't constantly calling Dora irrational, if he were then Dora complaining the way she did would make more sense in the area of 'Marten is being undercutting' or something similar. Instead however we end up in a situation where Dora does something irrational, usually doing it at Marten, Marten calls her out on it, and she gets angry. The problem is that either Marten does nothing about it which would be fairly unhealthy, or he calls her out on it and instead we end up with her blowing her stack at him for that and apparently having it seen as a negative trait of his.
Blackjoker:
--- Quote from: stoutfiles on 13 Jun 2011, 15:13 ---
--- Quote from: TheEvilDog on 13 Jun 2011, 13:19 ---
--- Quote from: stoutfiles ---That would be every comic where she and Marten fought and/or disagreed. Im not going through the strip history to find them. The relationship wasn't perfect to begin with, Dora didn't sink it all by herself.
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So you refuse to back up your argument while others have gone to the effort to back their own reasons for believing that Dora should see a therapist.
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I'm not going to catalog every argument they had to prove a point to someone who's mind is already made up. Sorry.
--- Quote from: TheEvilDog on 13 Jun 2011, 13:19 ---Except that your opinions have ignored other, valid points. You've ignored people who have spoken from personal experience. You admit that Dora has made bad relationship choices, but refuse to believe that there is something wrong when she keeps making the same mistakes. Einstein once said that “Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. Dora isn’t insane, but she still repeating the past mistakes. She hasn’t learned from any of those mistakes and she is doomed to repeat them.
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They are her wrong choices to make. Dora's a big girl, if she wants to go to therapy she can. If not, she doesn't have to. She especially doesn't need to hear it from Faye at work, uncalled for.
--- Quote from: TheEvilDog on 13 Jun 2011, 13:19 ---So Faye can’t be concerned for her best friend? Or that she could see that Dora was beginning to twist events so that Marten was the villain in their break up? As someone mentioned earlier, Dora is acting like an alcoholic who has been dry for two months and thinks that’s it, so its time to celebrate with a tumbler of whiskey. Faye has experience, Dora has arrogance, which would you be more concerned about?
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For being best friends, they sure don't get along that much! I'd be more concerned if Dora consoled Faye on any decision she made because of all her experience. "Sorry Jim, but Faye says I can't date you."
--- Quote from: TheEvilDog on 13 Jun 2011, 13:19 ---I do believe that she does need therapy, and that she does help to realise that she is on a self-destructive path. Her friends are too close for Dora to take them seriously or to believe them. A therapist just offers an outside perspective, and a trusted means of pointing things out.
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What horrible things will happen to Dora if she doesn't get help? Will she be alone forever?
--- Quote from: Elysiana on 13 Jun 2011, 13:52 ---So I do have another question for you, stoutfiles - even if she doesn't need it, what could it hurt?
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If Dora wants to go to therapy, then more power to her! I want it to be her decision, and not Faye pressuring her.
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A few points
1) People have been willing to post links showing rebuttals to your assertions, you seem to have either ignored them or you disagree, fine. But why not offer a few counter arguments for your own position, I am willing to change my view in light of new information and perspectives.
2) Yes, they are Doras decisions to make, but that doesn't mean that people who care about her should be ignored or treated as bad because they try to offer help and advice. Dora also offered plenty of advice to Faye in the strip as well, would you call that being a bad person or friend to her?
3) Their friendship may be rather acidic but it is there. The second thing is that you're hyperbolizing what was said and jumping to an odd conclusion. Faye might just be saying that Jim seems a bit off to her, it might be a bit like her faulty threat detection in earlier strips where she was even afraid of Marten in some regards (and in these cases Dora called her out on it and confronted the issues).
4) Alone forever, maybe maybe not. However it is worth noting that she even realized that her decisions were irrational in the relationship if she was given enough time to think about it. And according to both her and Sven her earlier boyfriends were abusers, maybe just emotional maybe also physical but they were still abusers. Dora might not end up 'forever alone' if she doesn't deal with her issues but she might find herself either in another abusive relationship or flying off the handle one time too often to the point where her friends decide that they have frankly had enough.
5) It's also important to note that Dora had to push Faye a fair amount to help get her into therapy, more to the point so did Marten, would you say that they were being bad friends for doing that? Faye wasn't crying constantly either, she was able to work just fine and had friends, would you say that the therapy for her was unnecessary?
<mod: edit to correct quoting for comprehensibility>
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