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[Tiogyr]

Maybe if Marten had anything interesting going on in his life (any hobbies that he could share with any girlfriend so they had something to do besides fuck each other and gripe about work), things wouldn't have been so stagnant so quickly.

Why is the responsibility entirely with him?

Why is the responsibility entirely with Dora? Oh wait, you're asking a question that isn't even remotely related to what I said.

Here is the interesting thing: This isn't an either or situation where only one person is to blame for the relationship going to Hell. Both Marten and Dora have equal shares in why things didn't work out (90% of which has to do with them flat out not being compatible in any way once they got past physical attraction to one another).

[JordanDH]

I don't know, I didn't see that stagnancy was an issue.  I thought it was more the totally inequal rules placed on the participants in the relationship and the frequent arguments that arose from this.  Which two people in the comics are compatible in your mind?

[Tiogyr]

I don't know, I didn't see that stagnancy was an issue.  I thought it was more the totally inequal rules placed on the participants in the relationship and the frequent arguments that arose from this.  Which two people in the comics are compatible in your mind?

No two characters are actually all that compatible with one another, with the possible exception of Angus and Faye at the moment because they are each honestly looking for what they're getting from each other (Angus is into being abused, Faye is into dishing out abuse, this is perfectly fine as long as the people getting into the relationship agree to it ahead of time).

You know, as opposed to Marten and Dora, where they were both claiming they wanted one thing but treating the other person like they were expecting something completely different. Marten is just as guilty of this as Dora, what with starting off on treating her as if he expected her to rail him about everything from the very start.

[JordanDH]

Marten and Dora enjoyed each other's company when she wasn't being completely unreasonable, had lots of sex, they seemed quite attached to each other.  Why else would Dora be afraid of losing him?  Why else would Marten be sad when the relationship ended?

[Spectreofwar]

1) http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1395

Dora admits that they don't have much in common.

Stoutfiles, you are seriously reaching.

She said that ONE aspect of Marten, which is a sizeable portion of him, is one she'll never be able to have a conversation with him about, and even if she did it'd be a girlfriend one.

How on EARTH did you take that to mean, and I quote, "they don't have much in common"? Face it, you're projecting, and at this point doing a poor job of it. If you have issues with Marten, just say it, but now you're just grasping at straws.

What really is your problem with this angle of the strip? What about Dora puts you so zealously on her "side" of things?

P.S. Link works now.

If you'd bother to look at this strip like it was a real relationship, you'd see that someone as one-dimensional as Marten would get old.  He's a Nice Guy who puts on a happy face everyday and bows to whatever Dora wants.  That never works.  He has one interesting hobby and they can't talk about it...Hanners and co. get a slightly interesting Marten while Dora gets a manatee she can fuck.  One aspect...it's his only aspect!  Otherwise he's a guy who works at a meaningless job, and then goes to a coffee shop, a bakery, or a bar.  I've never hid the fact that I have a big problem with Marten having any motivation to better himself, especially for a guy that never seems to be happy.

My problem is that anyone dating Marten would appear crazy as they'd want to escape the bleak purgatory he creates but would have no openings to do so.  The whole time with him would be an unstimulating bore; witty comments and niceness only go so far.  I want to see Dora date someone who's not affiliated with her brother and who's not our everyman.

Actually, I have bothered to look at this strip like a real relationship, which is what has kept me interested for as long as it has. I have actually paid more attention to this webcomic than any TV show in recent time. Marten is one-dimensional, and I'm not all that interested in him either, compared to his friends and how he interacts with them. But I don't go and make up stuff for my favourites like you apparently do (as pointed out in my previous reply).

You are doing nothing more right now than projecting yourself and your views on your favourite character (talk about something getting old!), and attempting to defend a point that Dora should or should not being going to therapy because she broke up with Marten.

If you had bothered to read the comic, you may have picked up that Dora has ALWAYS had issues. Pushing her to therapy was an event that came after the break-up, because her given reasons for the break-up were the culmination of all her issues affecting not only her life but those around her. THAT requires HELP, if you can't do it alone(and Dora has admitted that she tried to get over her issues; I'm not making this one up, she actually said those words). To give you an actual answer to your OP title: Dora needs therapy because her issues are holding her back in aspects of life that she has stated she wanted to change, which are affecting her in a detrimental way, and she cannot change on her own.

Besides, who are you to judge what relationships she can or cannot have, any more than her friends? Their every moments aren't displayed in this comic. Who are you to say you know better than those who spend all their time with her? If you had bothered to look at the strip like it was a real relationship, you'd know they're NEVER as simple as they seem from the outside, and a detached 3rd-person view never accounts for actual feelings.

[Tiogyr]

Marten and Dora enjoyed each other's company when she wasn't being completely unreasonable, had lots of sex, they seemed quite attached to each other.  Why else would Dora be afraid of losing him?

Dora wasn't afraid of losing Marten, she was afraid of the emotional rollercoaster that usually accompanies her breakups.

Why else would Marten be sad when the relationship ended?

Marten being sad when the relationship ended really didn't act too much different from Marten on any other day (after he got blackout drunk and got over the hangover the next day). He just relocated in terms of where he spends his free time.

[JordanDH]

Marten and Dora enjoyed each other's company when she wasn't being completely unreasonable, had lots of sex, they seemed quite attached to each other.  Why else would Dora be afraid of losing him?

Dora wasn't afraid of losing Marten, she was afraid of the emotional rollercoaster that usually accompanies her breakups.

Why else would Marten be sad when the relationship ended?

Marten being sad when the relationship ended really didn't act too much different from Marten on any other day (after he got blackout drunk and got over the hangover the next day). He just relocated in terms of where he spends his free time.

What emotional roller coaster?  The emotional roller coaster comes from losing someone you didn't want to lose.  And might I direct you to today's issue.

[Elysiana]

If you had bothered to read the comic, you may have picked up that Dora has ALWAYS had issues. Pushing her to therapy was an event that came after the break-up, because her given reasons for the break-up were the culmination of all her issues affecting not only her life but those around her. THAT requires HELP, if you can't do it alone(and Dora has admitted that she tried to get over her issues; I'm not making this one up, she actually said those words). To give you an actual answer to your OP title: Dora needs therapy because her issues are holding her back in aspects of life that she has stated she wanted to change, which are affecting her in a detrimental way, and she cannot change on her own.

This is my biggest thing - it's not that Dora needs therapy now because she broke up with Marten, or because she and Marten weren't a good match. She needed therapy before she even MET Marten. She should not have started dating him before getting past her issues, because they were SIGNIFICANT issues already. I'm not sure where this whole attitude of "Well, it was partly Marten's fault too" is coming from, because it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not she needs therapy. I repeat - she needed therapy before she met him.

I mean, the basic sequence of events was - Marten pursues Faye. Faye denies Marten. Dora pursues Marten pretty much immediately. Dora constantly accuses Marten of still having feelings for Faye. Dora breaks up with Marten because she knows she can't work past this issue and that it is only hurting the relationship. She KNOWS it is not fair to Marten that he should have to feel the brunt of her insecurities when they're unfounded in reality. She KNOWS she needs help working through it, she just doesn't know where to start getting that help.

A lot of people subconsciously pick relationships that they know may not work because then if it doesn't work they don't have to feel so bad about it. It's a sort of self-affirmation mechanism - "I knew this would happen!" Or they break up with someone first so that they don't have to be the rejected one. Therapy helps people recognize that they are falling into this trap. Once you learn to break the sequence, you can work on changing the outcome. Many people who have never seen any sort of counselor sit there and say, "I don't like how I handle things, but I guess it's just how I am." Those who have been taught to recognize the signs of slippage can say, "I noticed I was falling into the spiral, so I stopped the spiral."

[Tiogyr]

Dora needing therapy is an entirely separate subject from the one over whether Marten shares any blame at all in the relationship with Dora getting shitcanned, I agree (that's kind of what I've been saying but people keep missing the point).

[Is it cold in here?]

(moderator)
People are mostly saying interesting things and focusing on the comic, but a few comments have veered toward the personal. Remember to criticize and psychoanalyze the characters and not forum members.
(/moderator)

If we pursue the hypothesis that Dora and Marten didn't have enough in common (supportable from the strip), and broke up because of that and not for the reasons Dora gave (speculative, but psychologically plausible), where does that line of thought put us? It means that Dora keeps choosing incompatible partners. That's either bad luck (possible but getting unlikely for someone her age) or the result of an emotional malfunction that leads her to pursue people who aren't good for her. In the latter case, we're back to her needing the help of an expert in human behavior and in leading people to self-insight.

[DSL]

http://wapsisquare.com/comic/like-a-fable/

[Tiogyr]

If we pursue the hypothesis that Dora and Marten didn't have enough in common (supportable from the strip), and broke up because of that and not for the reasons Dora gave (speculative, but psychologically plausible), where does that line of thought put us?

It puts us on "lets wait and see where Jeph takes this" instead of "Oh holy shit, Dora is a slut!" like some people are just a half-step short of doing.

It means that Dora keeps choosing incompatible partners.

Or it means that the local dating pool is full of people Dora isn't compatible with and she'd probably be happier if she lived somewhere else. This is a pretty common story in many mediums and in real life as well (ranging from stories to outright examples of people that move from, say, The Deep South to one of the so-called Yankee states and being much happier, and vice-versa).

That's either bad luck (possible but getting unlikely for someone her age) or the result of an emotional malfunction that leads her to pursue people who aren't good for her. In the latter case, we're back to her needing the help of an expert in human behavior and in leading people to self-insight.

Oh, she definitely needs therapy for her issues. But then, so does Marten, so does Faye, so does Hannelore, so does... well, every major character in the comic. The difference is that Marten and Dora are the only two that (apparently) aren't (assuming Dora hasn't actually been seeing a therapist and we just haven't been given the benefit of those sessions).

[Welu]

1) http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1395

In that comic Dora is specifically talking about the way Marten and Hannelore are discussing the band, not music in general so it's big leap to say they had little in common. The comic has shown many times Marten and Dora are capable of discussing music in general. Others gave examples of other ways Marten and Dora were compatible, like movies and video games, and just by their being friends before getting together shows that they didn't need mostly the same interests to get along. That's true of a lot of friendships and relationships.

It's very rare one partner is 100% responsible for a relationship ending but the explanation Dora gave at the time was her issues getting in the way of rationality. The circumstances of Marten's relationship with Faye before them getting together didn't help (despite constant reassurances there is nothing between them since Dora and Marten got together) but Dora's previous issues seem like she'd find a way to be insecure even when one is not there.

I could go on about other ways Dora's issues affect other parts of her life but I've joined this thread late and most people have said things I would have said.

[stoutfiles]

1) http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1395

Dora admits that they don't have much in common.

Stoutfiles, you are seriously reaching.

She said that ONE aspect of Marten, which is a sizeable portion of him, is one she'll never be able to have a conversation with him about, and even if she did it'd be a girlfriend one.

How on EARTH did you take that to mean, and I quote, "they don't have much in common"? Face it, you're projecting, and at this point doing a poor job of it. If you have issues with Marten, just say it, but now you're just grasping at straws.

What really is your problem with this angle of the strip? What about Dora puts you so zealously on her "side" of things?

P.S. Link works now.

If you'd bother to look at this strip like it was a real relationship, you'd see that someone as one-dimensional as Marten would get old.  He's a Nice Guy who puts on a happy face everyday and bows to whatever Dora wants.  That never works.  He has one interesting hobby and they can't talk about it...Hanners and co. get a slightly interesting Marten while Dora gets a manatee she can fuck.  One aspect...it's his only aspect!  Otherwise he's a guy who works at a meaningless job, and then goes to a coffee shop, a bakery, or a bar.  I've never hid the fact that I have a big problem with Marten having any motivation to better himself, especially for a guy that never seems to be happy.

My problem is that anyone dating Marten would appear crazy as they'd want to escape the bleak purgatory he creates but would have no openings to do so.  The whole time with him would be an unstimulating bore; witty comments and niceness only go so far.  I want to see Dora date someone who's not affiliated with her brother and who's not our everyman.

Actually, I have bothered to look at this strip like a real relationship, which is what has kept me interested for as long as it has. I have actually paid more attention to this webcomic than any TV show in recent time. Marten is one-dimensional, and I'm not all that interested in him either, compared to his friends and how he interacts with them. But I don't go and make up stuff for my favourites like you apparently do (as pointed out in my previous reply).

You are doing nothing more right now than projecting yourself and your views on your favourite character (talk about something getting old!), and attempting to defend a point that Dora should or should not being going to therapy because she broke up with Marten.

If you had bothered to read the comic, you may have picked up that Dora has ALWAYS had issues. Pushing her to therapy was an event that came after the break-up, because her given reasons for the break-up were the culmination of all her issues affecting not only her life but those around her. THAT requires HELP, if you can't do it alone(and Dora has admitted that she tried to get over her issues; I'm not making this one up, she actually said those words). To give you an actual answer to your OP title: Dora needs therapy because her issues are holding her back in aspects of life that she has stated she wanted to change, which are affecting her in a detrimental way, and she cannot change on her own.

Besides, who are you to judge what relationships she can or cannot have, any more than her friends? Their every moments aren't displayed in this comic. Who are you to say you know better than those who spend all their time with her? If you had bothered to look at the strip like it was a real relationship, you'd know they're NEVER as simple as they seem from the outside, and a detached 3rd-person view never accounts for actual feelings.

My favorite character is Hannelore.  Dora's alright, but she wouldn't make the top 5.  I don't like Marten all that much, but I wasn't rooting fir their relationship to fail, more for Marten to show some ambition to do something with his life.  Right now he's just moping around at the library for minimum wage. 

I'm pushing my views?  Isn't that the point?  This whole topic is opinionated to begin with, there is no 100% right answer.  I give my thoughts on what I think about the situation, and I'm sorry, but my mind will not change.  I think the sample size of relationships is too small to determine that she has to get help, and even if I thought she did need help, it can only be suggested.  It's Dora's decision to make, she's a big girl now with big girl feelings.

I never said she should dump Marten.  I said she should do what she wants without her friends getting on her back.  Who Dora dates isn't really any of their business. 

[Is it cold in here?]

We know that Dora's been to at least one therapy session. She thought it was a failure because she talked about her brother the whole time. Jeph commented in the newspost that Dora was not being particularly self-aware there.

Is there argument, or consensus, that Dora herself thinks she needs therapy?

[Tiogyr]

We know that Dora's been to at least one therapy session. She thought it was a failure because she talked about her brother the whole time. Jeph commented in the newspost that Dora was not being particularly self-aware there.

Is there argument, or consensus, that Dora herself thinks she needs therapy?

Given how Dora reacted to it, with no follow-up asking her how therapy was going since then, would it be fair to say that question should be held off on until Jeph addresses whether or not she's still seeing her therapist?

[TRVA123]

What actions of Marten led to his relationship with Dora ending?

I don't think it's fair to cite his job or hobbies (or lack thereof), he and Dora never had a fight about either of those things. If you do cite something like that, please link to a comic that shows this leading to instability in M-D relationship.

I'm not trying to say that Marten is some innocent victim here, but from my reading of the comic the breakup was entirely driven by Dora's issues, and nothing else.

[TheEvilDog]

I have to agree with TRVA, you can't say it was a lack of hobbies or his job that led to the relationship failing. Coffee of Doom has virtually guarenteed that Dora has next to no time outside of the coffehouse. She works what? 60? 70 hour weeks? Thats the paid hours she probably does, because after that Dora probably has to concentrate on the roasting beans, sorting out the day's takings, ordering new stock, keeping the accounts in order, not to mention cleaning up or opening C.o.D.. I know no store manager or owner that pays themselves for that. Thats another three hours onto her day, at least. So, as a small business owner, Dora probably spends about 13 hours working on her business, with presumably 7 hours sleep, if she's lucky. That means that Dora has about 4 hours free each day. Barely enough time to have something to eat, shower, spend time with her friends or boyfriend, let alone have any hobbies.

If we look through the comic, Dora laments that she doesn't really share any interests with him, save for when they went to the S.H.R.A. concert, but beyond that, she doesn't make any effort to join in with the band, even if its just for support, or to get Marten to play the guitar for her. Meanwhile, we saw Marten get tickets to a horror film festival, pick up some Terry Pratchet books and take an interest when Dora was worried about C.o.D.

I'm not saying that Marten is a saint, far from it, but a relationship is about give and take, if neither share an interest/hobby, then they create an interest together. Did we see that between Dora and Marten? No, not really. But for the time being any relationship Dora enters will have four in there, Dora, whoever she is dating, C.o.D. and her issues.

[themacnut]

I do have to wonder if Dora may have been more secure about her relationship with Marten if he hadn't been sharing an apartment with the woman he admitted still having feelings for. If Marten and Faye had stopped living together when he and Dora started dating, at least one fight between them wouldn't have happened. Marten might (I repeat might) have been able to do a better job convincing Dora to get a handle on her insecurities then.

[TRVA123]

I do have to wonder if Dora may have been more secure about her relationship with Marten if he hadn't been sharing an apartment with the woman he admitted still having feelings for. If Marten and Faye had stopped living together when he and Dora started dating, at least one fight between them wouldn't have happened. Marten might (I repeat might) have been able to do a better job convincing Dora to get a handle on her insecurities then.

That is a fair point, but within the context of the comic I don't think Marten moving out of the apartment right when he and Dora started dating would make sense.

Marten had just lost his job and probably didn't have enough money saved up to make a downpayment on a new place. He would also be leaving Faye in the lurch, as I'm sure her job doesn't pay well enough for her to afford the apartment by herself. While Marten might have moved in with Steve, where would Faye go? Hanner's probably couldn't handle it, and moving in with Dora would leave us with the original problem.

Also, Marten would have to know about Dora's trust issues and insecurities right at the beginning of the relationship, and there was really no way he could have.
Marten couldn't move in with Dora right away, as that would be a bit too fast for both of them.

[jwhouk]

However, the move was the beginning of the end, in retrospect.

Originally, just like when they started going out, she initiated the idea, and she wanted him to move in with her. Faye was the one who was more pragmatic about it, saying it'd be easier for all of them, money-wise, if she moved in with them.

Unfortunately, Dora could never overcome her irrational fear that Marten still held a torch for Faye - and the no-pants moment linked previously caused that fear to come back full-blown after months/years/whatevers-in-QC-time of being suppressed.

And THAT, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is why Dora needs therapy.

</thread>

[stoutfiles]

However, the move was the beginning of the end, in retrospect.

Originally, just like when they started going out, she initiated the idea, and she wanted him to move in with her. Faye was the one who was more pragmatic about it, saying it'd be easier for all of them, money-wise, if she moved in with them.

Unfortunately, Dora could never overcome her irrational fear that Marten still held a torch for Faye - and the no-pants moment linked previously caused that fear to come back full-blown after months/years/whatevers-in-QC-time of being suppressed.

And THAT, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is why Dora needs therapy.

</thread>

The fear isn't irrational, if right now Faye dumped Angus and said she loved Marten, he'd be all over her.  Dora liked Marten but questioned Martens commitment when he liked Faye at the time and just goes with things.  It was doomed from the start.

And THAT, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is why we can't come into threads and declare our opinions the only valid ones, and then try to kill any follow up with silly tags.

[guayec]

if right now Faye dumped Angus and said she loved Marten, he'd be all over her.

That is your opinion right there, not fact. My own view is that he is past that romantic feeling, Faye is his best friend, and it would take a time to rebuild it. Jeph has said something similar, and I guess one thing we can all agree (at least) is that JEPH KNOWS.

[Torlek]

However, the move was the beginning of the end, in retrospect.

Originally, just like when they started going out, she initiated the idea, and she wanted him to move in with her. Faye was the one who was more pragmatic about it, saying it'd be easier for all of them, money-wise, if she moved in with them.

Unfortunately, Dora could never overcome her irrational fear that Marten still held a torch for Faye - and the no-pants moment linked previously caused that fear to come back full-blown after months/years/whatevers-in-QC-time of being suppressed.

And THAT, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is why Dora needs therapy.

</thread>

The fear isn't irrational, if right now Faye dumped Angus and said she loved Marten, he'd be all over her.  Dora liked Marten but questioned Martens commitment when he liked Faye at the time and just goes with things.  It was doomed from the start.

And THAT, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is why we can't come into threads and declare our opinions the only valid ones, and then try to kill any follow up with silly tags.

Pot, kettle, black. This thread is like a game of rhetorical whack-a-mole.

[Blackjoker]

However, the move was the beginning of the end, in retrospect.

Originally, just like when they started going out, she initiated the idea, and she wanted him to move in with her. Faye was the one who was more pragmatic about it, saying it'd be easier for all of them, money-wise, if she moved in with them.

Unfortunately, Dora could never overcome her irrational fear that Marten still held a torch for Faye - and the no-pants moment linked previously caused that fear to come back full-blown after months/years/whatevers-in-QC-time of being suppressed.

And THAT, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is why Dora needs therapy.

</thread>

The fear isn't irrational, if right now Faye dumped Angus and said she loved Marten, he'd be all over her.  Dora liked Marten but questioned Martens commitment when he liked Faye at the time and just goes with things.  It was doomed from the start.

And THAT, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is why we can't come into threads and declare our opinions the only valid ones, and then try to kill any follow up with silly tags.

Objection, assumes facts not in evidence. If Faye did that Marten would more likely assume she was either fucking with him or she was suffering some kind of psychotic break or was under duress.

[pwhodges]

<MODERATOR>

What is wrong with parts of this thread is the too free assertion of opinions as absolutes.  All we actually know about the fictional world we discuss here is the actual content of the strips, and a selection of remarks by Jeph in the comments and elsewhere.  Everything else we say about the strip is conjecture, and we cannot appropriately say that people are wrong to disagree with us if we cannot quote one of those sources to demonstrate it.

As for discussion of things beyond the strip, like the nature or usefulness of therapy/counselling, or other matters of that sort, please try not to be too dogmatic unless you can again quote suitable authority, or call on persuasive personal experience.  Second-hand anecdotes are not enough. 

Also remember that this forum is occupied by people (a) from many different countries (so words and concepts in a puzzling post might not mean what you think), and (b) from many stages of life (the range of ages of people who contribute here runs from 17 years or less up to 70 years).

That said, the present discussion has managed to remain pretty polite (which in past times it might not have done), and I'd like to thank everyone for that.  But some attention to the matters I've laid out here might make it easier.

</MODERATOR>

[TheEvilDog]

What is wrong with parts of this thread is the too free assertion of opinions as absolutes.  All we actually know about the fictional world we discuss here is the actual content of the strips, and a selection of remarks by Jeph in the comments and elsewhere.  Everything else we say about the strip is conjecture, and we cannot appropriately say that people are wrong to disagree with us if we cannot quote one of those sources to demonstrate it.

Thats pretty much been my point the last few posts I've made. All we saw were opinions on why Dora should not have been in therapy, while others who believed she should be, made the effort to trawl through the archives looking for the comics that confirmed that Dora needed to speak to a professional.

[TRVA123]

It seems that everyone who has put forth why Dora should be in therapy has given the same reasons:
1. Dora has severe insecurities and trust issues surrounding her relationship with her brother Sven
2. Dora has severe insecurities and trust issues surrounding her ability to sustain a healthy romantic relationship.
3. Dora has admitted that these issues interfere with her romantic goals in a negative sense.

Everyone who has put forth that Dora doesn't need therapy is asserting that the reasons Dora doesn't need therapy are:
1. Dora's work related life is in good order, and as long as her issues don't affect her career she has a healthy outlook.
2. Dora's relationship centered issues are justified because of a previous romantic relationship between Marten and Faye.
3. Dora's insecurities and trust issues are a part of her core personality and to try to change those would alter Dora's character in a needlessly drastic way.

I'm just trying to summarize both sides of the discussion. I think that the original topic question has been answered numerous times, with different people rephrasing similar ideas.

[Tiogyr]

It seems that everyone who has put forth why Dora should be in therapy has given the same reasons:
1. Dora has severe insecurities and trust issues surrounding her relationship with her brother Sven
2. Dora has severe insecurities and trust issues surrounding her ability to sustain a healthy romantic relationship.
3. Dora has admitted that these issues interfere with her romantic goals in a negative sense.

Everyone who has put forth that Dora doesn't need therapy is asserting that the reasons Dora doesn't need therapy are:
1. Dora's work related life is in good order, and as long as her issues don't affect her career she has a healthy outlook.
2. Dora's insecurities and trust issues are a part of her core personality and to try to change those would alter Dora's character in a needlessly drastic way.

Everyone who has put forth concepts that have nothing to do with whether Dora needs therapy or not:
1. Dora's relationship centered issues specifically with regard to Marten are justified because of a previous romantic relationship between Marten and Faye.

I'm just trying to summarize both sides of the discussion. I think that the original topic question has been answered numerous times, with different people rephrasing similar ideas.

Fixed that for you.

[stoutfiles]

However, the move was the beginning of the end, in retrospect.

Originally, just like when they started going out, she initiated the idea, and she wanted him to move in with her. Faye was the one who was more pragmatic about it, saying it'd be easier for all of them, money-wise, if she moved in with them.

Unfortunately, Dora could never overcome her irrational fear that Marten still held a torch for Faye - and the no-pants moment linked previously caused that fear to come back full-blown after months/years/whatevers-in-QC-time of being suppressed.

And THAT, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is why Dora needs therapy.

</thread>

The fear isn't irrational, if right now Faye dumped Angus and said she loved Marten, he'd be all over her.  Dora liked Marten but questioned Martens commitment when he liked Faye at the time and just goes with things.  It was doomed from the start.

And THAT, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is why we can't come into threads and declare our opinions the only valid ones, and then try to kill any follow up with silly tags.

Pot, kettle, black. This thread is like a game of rhetorical whack-a-mole.

I state my opinions but do not try to end conversation with an "I'm right, and let's end the thread now" tag.  Like I said before, this is an opinionated topic as therapy isn't as cut and dry as say, my needing to breathe air.  If someone wants to live they need oxygen, but if someone has problems they don't necessarily need therapy.  They might solve their problems on their own, given some time.  Sure, Dora could use therapy like the whole QC cast could use therapy.  But at this current juncture, do I think she needs it?  Neh, just some more time.  Looks like she's even getting along with Sven too for helping out after the breakup.  I think shell be ok, but that's just my opinion, I'm not saying my opinion is the right one but I will defend it the best I can.

[TheEvilDog]

Except you've ignored posts and reasonable explainations of why she should see someone, all the while espousing your belief that its rubbish and that we wish Dora's character to be changed into something else. We don't.

Lets look at a similar storyline done in the comic, when Dora and Marten were beginning to notice that Faye was drinking to excess, a lot. Did they have any right as her friends to advise her to seek help, to see someone? Thats what we've seen here. One of the cast was (or still is) on a self-destructive route, that one of their friends noticed, because they too, were on that path. Look at Faye since she began seeing Doctor Corinne, and how far she has developed as a character. Thats what the therapy storyline leads to, character development, which for any story is essential. Thats what we want with Dora, character development, otherwise, what do we have left? A once popular character stagnating, becoming less and less popular to the point where they are eventually packed onto a bus and sent off, or worse, killed off.

Thats the reason why we feel Dora should be in therapy, to develop her character, and to also learn more about her past.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but to ignore others for the sake of your own is both foolish, and likely to get you into trouble in any stage of your life.

[Tiogyr]

I agree that Dora needs therapy, but not because she's planning to go on a date with Jim (that is the most normal decision she's made in a long time).

[stoutfiles]

Except you've ignored posts and reasonable explainations of why she should see someone, all the while espousing your belief that its rubbish and that we wish Dora's character to be changed into something else. We don't.

Lets look at a similar storyline done in the comic, when Dora and Marten were beginning to notice that Faye was drinking to excess, a lot. Did they have any right as her friends to advise her to seek help, to see someone? Thats what we've seen her. One of the cast was (or still is) on a self-destructive route, that one of their friends noticed, because they too, were on that path. Look at Faye since she began seeing Doctor Corinne, and how far she has developed as a character. Thats what the therapy storyline leads to, character development, which for any story is essential. Thats what we want with Dora, character development, otherwise, what do we have left? A once popular character stagnating, becoming less and less popular to the point where they are eventually packed onto a bus and sent off, or worse, killed off.

Thats the reason why we feel Dora should be in therapy, to develop her character, and to also learn more about her past.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but to ignore others for the sake of your own is both foolish, and likely to get you into trouble in any stage of your life.

How am I ignoring posts?  I read them and respond with my opinion which differs from yours.  I acknowledge, I just don't agree as this is an opinionated topic as I've said many times.

You basically just said that because I dont agree with your logic that I'm foolish and will get into trouble at some stage in my life.  Huh?  Who is we in your statement...who all do you speak for?

[Spectreofwar]

How am I ignoring posts?  I read them and respond with my opinion which differs from yours.  I acknowledge, I just don't agree as this is an opinionated topic as I've said many times.

You basically just said that because I dont agree with your logic that I'm foolish and will get into trouble at some stage in my life.  Huh?  Who is we in your statement...who all do you speak for?

You ignored plenty of posts. Your opinion isn't often presented as opinion, and you twist what the characters say (even going so far as to state that they said things they didn't), and simply having a differing opinion doesn't make a topic "opinionated."

TheEvilDog also never said that you're foolish because your opinions differ, he said ignoring the opinion of others (and I assume he means those, like throughout this thread, who have something material to back up their opinion) is foolish. Quite different statements.

By the way, if I may be so bold, "we" happens to be most of the people in this thread. You need only re-read it to understand that.

I'll post a more detailed reply in response to your assertions when I have the time to reference a few things.

Edit: In the spirit of not sounding like I'm trying to "correct" people rather than information, as it may unintentionally come across that way, that response won't be coming. Besides, I think it's been made clear it doesn't really matter one way or the other.

[Is it cold in here?]

... and to also learn more about her past.

Yes, please! It's far from clear that what we've heard about her past is enough to account for her current issues. There may be something interesting waiting to be discovered.

(moderator)
This thread is not for correcting each other's problems. There have been two moderator harrumphs already. Don't be like this guy: xkcd.com/386/
(/moderator)

[Skewbrow]

@Is it cold in here? The 18th decimal of pi in your text is wrong. It should be ...2384626433... I KNOW

Edit: What a nice round number!

[TheEvilDog]

@Is it cold in here? The 18th decimal of pi in your text is wrong. It should be ...2384626433...

Hey, its not A Perfect Circle.

[Skewbrow]

So I should just be content to answer his question with a quiet 'No'?

[TheEvilDog]

So I should just be content to answer his question with a quiet 'No'?

(sigh)

[Skewbrow]

Sorry. A long time ago Sam the Eagle taught me that getting a pop culture reference doesn't entitle anyone to feel smart. I also took the logical next step and decided that not getting a pop culture reference entitles me to feel smart. Not book smart, but street smart anyway.

[TheEvilDog]

Sorry. A long time ago Sam the Eagle taught me that getting a pop culture reference doesn't entitle anyone to feel smart. I also took the logical next step and decided that not getting a pop culture reference entitles me to feel smart. Not book smart, but street smart anyway.

All I heard was.....

[Skewbrow]

Radio Ga Ga?

[pwhodges]

There have been two moderator harrumphs already.

And maybe third strike is out? 

Please don't push us, guys.

[Elysiana]

I swear it's the full moon...

[TheEvilDog]

I blame the eclipse...

[stoutfiles]

You ignored plenty of posts. Your opinion isn't often presented as opinion, and you twist what the characters say (even going so far as to state that they said things they didn't), and simply having a differing opinion doesn't make a topic "opinionated."

Only because it gets tiring repeating the same points.  I'll sum them up.

1) Yes, Dora had bad relationships in the past.  Who hasn't?  As for Sven, they appear to be getting along much better as Sven has begun to change his ways.  Without therapy, mind you.

2) I ignore Dora's problems with Marten because I thought the relationship was doomed from the start, for reasons I've posted many times.  If you don't agree with them, then ok. 

So we'll just see how she does with Jim.  If she flips out for no reason, then I'd be more inclined to shift the other way.  So far though, Marten and some off-screen relationships aren't enough evidence for me to say she can't go on without therapy.  I would say I've done a better job of expressing my thoughts as opinions then some of the return opinions I've gotten.   

A topic is "opinionated" when it involves something personal such as therapy.  There may be a better way to lean on the issue, but there is no correct answer.

TheEvilDog also never said that you're foolish because your opinions differ, he said ignoring the opinion of others (and I assume he means those, like throughout this thread, who have something material to back up their opinion) is foolish. Quite different statements.

I have acknowledged all opinions.  I just don't agree with them regarding her needing therapy.  Most of her issues are justified, and the others don't add up enough to warrant her being pushed into therapy.  Sorry, that's how I feel.

By the way, if I may be so bold, "we" happens to be most of the people in this thread. You need only re-read it to understand that.

I wasn't aware that everyone who disagreed with Dora needing therapy also agreed that we want to learn more about her past.  Maybe some people want her to get therapy but off screen as they don't like her much?  I just don't think using 'we' is a good word to use if you branch off to other opinions.

[Elysiana]

I'm just curious, not trying to be leading - what do you personally feel are good reasons for a person to go into therapy?

[stoutfiles]

I'm just curious, not trying to be leading - what do you personally feel are good reasons for a person to go into therapy?

Therapy is so broad that any negative trait, event, etc. can be worked out with therapy.  I know people that went just because they get so many free sessions a year for work.  I have nothing against therapy.

However, if you don't want to go, is it worth it?  Dora has little free time, probably not a ton of money, and doesn't think very highly of therapy.  Is it worth her time and money to go to a therapist if she won't give it her full effort?  She's ready for a therapist when she wants to be; otherwise, it'll be a waste of time/money.

If her problems ever got to the point where she isn't living her life anymore (going to work, meeting new people, seeing her friends) then I lean more towards her getting some help.  I don't see that happening though, everyone has problems and the majority of us work through them without the help of therapy.  I'd put Dora in the majority.  That said, if she deicded she was all for therapy and kept going, then more power to her.  It's a personal decision.

The main issue I've had with all this is Dora feels like she's being pushed into it.  Even at work she's being bugged about it.  Dora could just as easily turn around and start pointing out the rest of the QC cast and their crippling issues.  Most of them have issues worse than Dora but they aren't being bugged.  It's almost like Dora is being picked on.  It's just rude.  I don't think anyone here, after a breakup, would want to be told you need therapy for breaking up with someone, and then bugged constantly about it.  That's just how I feel.  Faye is very pushy most of the time; I'd tell her to back off.

[Spectreofwar]

I actually had decided against bringing up a point-by-point post before, but I want to be clear here.

1) Yes, Dora had bad relationships in the past.  Who hasn't?  As for Sven, they appear to be getting along much better as Sven has begun to change his ways.  Without therapy, mind you.

Dora's relationships aren't the total sum of why those of us agree that she could use therapy (and I say "agree" because she has stated intentions of dealing with her issues), so continuing to go at the relationship level is rather moot at this point.

2) I ignore Dora's problems with Marten because I thought the relationship was doomed from the start, for reasons I've posted many times.  If you don't agree with them, then ok. 

My apologies if I'm misunderstanding, but what I gathered from your original post and many that followed is that you were actually pretty focused on Dora's problems with Marten, for which you supplied reasons that could not be fully substantiated in the comics (and some that were conjecture and supposition). I have no opinion as to whether or not Dora and Marten were doomed or not, as relationships (particularly fictitious ones) tend to be rather fluid and biased to the direction the author intends. What I read from your posts was quite the opposite of you ignoring her problems with Marten. Please correct me if I am wrong on this matter.

So we'll just see how she does with Jim.  If she flips out for no reason, then I'd be more inclined to shift the other way.  So far though, Marten and some off-screen relationships aren't enough evidence for me to say she can't go on without therapy.  I would say I've done a better job of expressing my thoughts as opinions then some of the return opinions I've gotten.

I'm afraid I must disagree here, as once again I'll state that Dora's requirement(?) for therapy does not hinge on just this one aspect of her. I will also (respectfully) disagree with your assessment of the presentations of your side of the argument on the basis of a lack of supporting links or direct quotes. Others have supplied such for their arguments.

A topic is "opinionated" when it involves something personal such as therapy.  There may be a better way to lean on the issue, but there is no correct answer.

While both the methods and the outcomes of therapy may be personalized and differ from person to person, as a legitimate medical practice it does have some difinitve right and wrong aspects. As someone who has had therapy for a good portion of his early 20's, I can easily tell you that there are distinct benefits, even for the small things in life, that such treatment can grant. They are quantifiable and visible. This is not an opinion; it is documented, which is why we have professions such as Psychologists, Psychiatrists, and Counsellors.

I just don't agree with them regarding her needing therapy.  Most of her issues are justified, and the others don't add up enough to warrant her being pushed into therapy.  Sorry, that's how I feel.

Judging a person by your standards as to whether or not that person needs or doesn't need to go could just as easily be applied to Faye as it could to you; I agree, she needs to make her own decision. In therapy, the only way a person can get better is if they want to get better.

Such as what she says here.
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1357
Along with the desire to get better, exemplified here.
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1467

So while Dora may be pushed by Faye from time to time, it's what Faye does and they have been getting along that way since the beginning of the comic, presumably even before that. Faye DOES have experience with it, and Dora has indeed expressed the desire to go and fix her issues. If she has a relationship, with ANYONE, and she brings in baggage from her past that she, in all honesty, doesn't want to bring but can't find a way to not bring it in, she should by all means consider therapy. Faye knows this, has spoken to her about this, and is actually being a good friend in pushing her. Besides that, strip 1946 hardly has Faye "pushing" her, and even if someone would take it that way Dora handled it well - just like she has most every suggestion Faye has made.

[EvilDuckyBec]

Let me just preface this by saying that I am neither on the "Dora definitely needs therapy" side or the "Dora definitely does not need therapy" side. I do, however, disagree with this point of stoutfiles'.

1) Yes, Dora had bad relationships in the past.  Who hasn't?

There is a difference between a bad relationship and an abusive relationship. From what Sven says here (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1746) it sounds to me like many of Dora's previous relationships were borderline abusive at least. It may be normal to have a few bad relationships, I don't know. I do not believe it is normal to have several (I'd say three or more, or Marten would have said, "She's said both of her old boyfriends were assholes" rather than "all" in that strip) really bad/possibly abusive relationships, although perhaps I am just being an idealist when I say that.

I've never posted before, and am unlikely to do so again any time soon, but I do think that this needed to be pointed out.