Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[NotAwesomeAnymore]

Reading the arguments in the WCDT, it's clear that QC readers have some very different values. Some issues are brought up repeatedly, with the same points brought up by either side and, well, it starts to seem like a parliament!

I'm wondering when it comes to people's character preferences and which actions they approve and disapprove of, if a person who likes Tai is likely to like Marten, in the same way a conservative who opposes gay marriage is likely to also oppose abortion. (I don't want to argue about conservative/liberal lines etc. - it was just to illustrate my question.) Basically I want to determine if the characters people like are indications of those people's common values. Don't worry about sounding subjective or people disagreeing with your perceptions of characters. I think this is the best format to do it in, though I'm open to suggestions:

1. List of characters you like
2. List of characters you dislike
3. Good values (values which you try and live by)
4. Bad values
(Try to keep these as short and concise as possible, so that a person with similar values to you can just repeat what you said. I'm looking for similarities here!)

I like:
Angus, Jim, Dora, Dale, Tai, Faye

I dislike:
SOMETIMES Marigold and Marten

Good values:
Ambition and goals, vocal and unique viewpoints, good humour (finding one's life funny, or just not taking misfortune/conflicts too seriously), brutal honesty, assertiveness

Bad values:
Feeling sorry for oneself, melodrama, lack of goals, passivity
 
Also, if you've noticed that those who call Marten a "Nice Guy" or the Cult of Marten or other such groups have things in common, post it here!

[NotAwesomeAnymore]

On second thought, those results would be all over the place. Perhaps what's better is to list the key issues in WCDT debates followed by your stances on them, and then what values you think these opinions are informed by.

Such as:
1. Is Marten a "Nice Guy"?
No.

2. Is Dora, for lack of better words, a crazy bitch?
No.

3. Should Dora be in therapy?
Yes.

4. Is it acceptable for Tai to make a move on Dora now?
Kinda.

5. Does Marten have goals?
No.

6. Is Dale creepy?
No.

Values behind my stances: I find ambition and goals important and try not to take misfortunes and conflicts in my own life too seriously. I see any violence and insults as for comedic purposes and assume the characters are done no harm.

[gprimr1]

Characters I like: I actually like almost all the characters in the show. Each have their own unique traits I like.

Characters I dislike: Ok, I said "almost" all. I don't' like Natasha (i like persona hygiene) and I never took a liking to Padme and Renee, or the Secret Bakery crew.

Good Values:

Honor, being a gentleman, trying to be successful, entrepreneurship, respect, loyalty

Bad Values

Deciet, leading on people, slothfulness, lack of ambition.

[dragontart]

For your first post:

1. Characters I like: Dora, Sven, Marten, Faye
2. Characters I dislike: Raven/Cosette; Angus/Tai/Martenmom a little bit; Faye at the beginning of the comic (though I also found her to be the main source of fun)
3. Our definitions of "value" may differ. If you mean as in "what I find enjoyable/advantageous in myself and others" (that sounds wrong):
Honesty, reliability, black humor, occasional silliness, high intelligence/intellect/knowledge, calmness, logic, well-thought-out opinions on what you find acceptable or not;
4. Bad values: dullness, furtiveness, dogmatism, obtrusiveness (is that the word. I mean people who always force themselves on you. This sounds wrong again); also, to judge people for things/choices which don't even affect anybody/thing else except themselves. Also people who don't want to see how much their choices affect somebody/thing else.


For your other examples:

1. Is Marten a "Nice Guy"? - Partly, not much of the negative definition.
2. Is Dora, for lack of better words, a crazy bitch? - No.
3. Should Dora be in therapy? - Yes, because she seems to think so herself.
4. Is it acceptable for Tai to make a move on Dora now? - Yes (but probably not wise).
5. Does Marten have goals? - I don't know and I don't care. But I'm interested if he cares about that.
6. Is Dale creepy? - No.

Due to their depiction in the comic, I don't know if any of the characters would meet certain values of different levels which I'd also find important, thus I decided which people I'd mostly accept around me on random occasions.

Let's make some cute little flags to wave around and hop up and down.
(But I guess everybody is a political party on their own, in the end.)

[Tanksenior]

I don't think political parties is the right way to decribe it. Feels a bit too black n white to me.

Anyway, to awnser your other question. I like pretty much all characters except for Tai and Renee. I don't really know why, they just kind of annoy me. You ever have that feeling? Not knowing why you dislike someone but you just do?

I also find listing things you value a bit useless, because pretty much everyone values stuff like honesty, friendship, passion, ambition, respect etc.

[Akima]

I don't think about characters in fictional works in terms of whether I "like" or "dislike" them. Am I supposed to decide if I "like" Lady Macbeth, or Lin Daiyu, for example?

[jwhouk]

I don't think about characters in fictional works in terms of whether I "like" or "dislike" them. Am I supposed to decide if I "like" Lady Macbeth, or Lin Daiyu, for example?

This.

My belief system? When I am dealing with fiction, I try to apply Joel's Law and Bellisario's Maxim liberally. Especially to internet forum rants.

[rje]

Yeah, I can't answer that question as to any meaningful result. Because 'like' is kind of a vague term really. I mean look -

People in this comic who's company I would enjoy if they were my friends:
Marten, Hannelore, Marigold, Faye, Dora, Angus, Wil, Veronica

People in this comic who's company I would not enjoy if they were my friends:
Steve, Tai, Sven, Penelope, Raven, Marigold when she's in an I Suck Spiral

People who's behaviors and actions in the comic I enjoy:
Steve, Faye, Hannelore, Marigold, Dora, Angus, Wil, Sven, Raven, Tai

People who's behaviors and actions in the comic I don't (always) enjoy:
Marten, Penelope, Veronica, Raven, Sven sometimes, Tai sometimes

People in the above list who I still wanted to read about regardless of whether or not I liked their behaviors and actions:
Everybody

[jwhouk]

I should point out, despite what I "imagine" my avatar in this comic would be, I am older than Jim (the Secret Bakery owner). Ergo, most of the characters in this strip would be "kids" to me - and generally would not be the type of company I would keep.

[TinPenguin]

I don't think about characters in fictional works in terms of whether I "like" or "dislike" them. Am I supposed to decide if I "like" Lady Macbeth, or Lin Daiyu, for example?

I really liked Colonel Herzog in Dead Snow. He was a Nazi zombie. He was vicious, repugnant, scheming, greedy and cruel.

I would not enjoy his company.

But I liked him.

[Is it cold in here?]

One difference in perspective is between people who take character interactions at face value and those who ascribe non-literal meanings and look for motives.

The face-value people look at how Faye talks to people and see verbal abuse. They look at Marigold and see lack of caring.

The look-inside people include those who look at how consistently pleasant Marten is and suspect that he's manipulative. They're more inclined to see irony and attempted self-protection in Faye's sass.

I hope I've phrased this so neutrally that nobody will think I'm taking sides between the two points of view.

[DSL]

I'll agree in concept with Isitcoldinhere and differ in detail with what I see if I look below the surface (merely as an example, I see Faye as manipulative ... But again, it's a defference in detail.

I also see two "factions" ... Those who evaluate the characters as characters, and those who let them and their circumstances stand for people and circumstances in their own lives. The latter seem to me to be those who react with more heat and absolutism in their response to what goes on in the strip.

[Is it cold in here?]

The better the storytelling, the more of the latter there will be.

[pwhodges]

and those who let them and their circumstances stand for people and circumstances in their own lives. The latter seem to me to be those who react with more heat and absolutism in their response to what goes on in the strip.

I would rather say "those who react with more heat and absolutism are usually in the latter group".

The better the storytelling, the more of the latter there will be.

But OTOH the people who most criticise the storytelling tend to be those who feel strongly that it is failing to correctly match their  lives.

[wrwight]

So what would you call someone who realizes that while the characters are fictional, it's difficult sometimes not to apply your own bias and project a bit of yourself onto the characters. Would that be like a moderate?

[jwhouk]

There's a psychological term for that sort of person.

"Well-adjusted." 

[TRVA123]

1. List of characters you like
I love characters who are morally ambiguous and who know themselves well. Dale, Sven, Hanners (to a certain extent), Angus,  and post therapy Faye.
With these characters, they might know that some of what they do is questionable, but they seem to know their reasons for doing it and what it brings them. Sven with women and Dale with his pranks on Marigold,  both are manipulating people, but they are aware of that and if confronted about it would probably give an honest answer and maybe change their actions. (although with Dale a lot of this is assumption, he might turn out to be one of those frustratingly oblivious characters)

2. List of characters you dislike

With most of the other characters, I'll enjoy their antics, but I don't enjoy them half as much overall. Dora (although she may get better with therapy) and Marigold don't really know themselves, as in what the roots of their intentions and reactions are. To me it comes off as almost a kind of deception, where they are lying even to themselves. Some of their obliviousness could even be seen as manipulation, such as Marigold fishing for compliments and always putting herself down. Don't get me wrong, I do think that Marigold has low self-esteem, but at the same time she fishes for compliments; and compliments reeled in will never be as valued as those freely given.

I'm definitely not in the "OMG DORA IS A BITCH AND SHOULD LEAVE THE COMIC AND DIE" camp. I enjoy reading Dora, provided she isn't letting her issues interfere with her relationships with the other characters. (this used to be my main complaint with Faye as well, but she has gotten that under control in the last year worth of strips or so) But when she says things like "I talked about Sven the entire time, what kind of therapy is this?!" I get kind of exasperated.

I'm not a big Tai fan because in her early appearances she was a bit one note and cliche, and in her current appearances she seems pretty immature.

3. Good values (values which you try and live by)

Treat other people as you would want to be treated. know thyself. keep an open mind. if you're not hurting others then do what you want.

4. Bad values

People who treat others as tools, i.e. users. Ignorance, esp willful ignorance. People who don't respect other people.

1. Is Marten a "Nice Guy"?

at the beginning, yes. Now? I'm not so sure.

2. Is Dora, for lack of better words, a crazy bitch?

No.
Was Dora the one responsible for the Dora/Marten relationship imploding? Yes.

3. Should Dora be in therapy?

Yes.

4. Is it acceptable for Tai to make a move on Dora now?

Meh, They're consenting adults. Do I think it's a good idea for Dora to be in a relationship with anyone at all? no. very bad idea.

5. Does Marten have goals?

Yes. Is he trying to achieve them? no. Are they entirely realistic? no. Does any of this bother me? nope, I really could care less about Marten's goals or apathy.

6. Is Dale creepy?

Yes, but that's part of the appeal of his character. I want to know more. why is he creepy? what is going to happen with him and Marigold? More Please!

[DSL]

and those who let them and their circumstances stand for people and circumstances in their own lives. The latter seem to me to be those who react with more heat and absolutism in their response to what goes on in the strip.

I would rather say "those who react with more heat and absolutism are usually in the latter group".

Hey you! (un)Twisting my words so they ... Um, reflect more clearly what I meant to say ...

Thanks!

[Carl-E]

I should point out, despite what I "imagine" my avatar in this comic would be, I am older than Jim (the Secret Bakery owner). Ergo, most of the characters in this strip would be "kids" to me - and generally would not be the type of company I would keep.

Same here.  Unfortunately, several of my older daughter's friends have been hanging around - they're all 20-somethings, and most have babies (an indicator of my next comment).  Unfortunately, none  of them are as intelligent or witty as the characters in the strip.  One of them thinks she's like Faye, but her attempts at sarcsm just come out as rude (and she's not curvy, unless round counts). 

It also means they can't take a hint, and are as considerate as a pack of wolverines.  My daughter recently admitted that she barely knew most of them back in school, they just seem to have crawled out of the wodwork this summer. 

I'm pretty sure it's the pool in the backyard. 

[Nick and Marla]

Oh, well, I like people and things of that nature, so, it's stuff.

[Rainforce]

Characters I like: I can't think of a character I don't like right now, as I like them all for each of their silly quirks.
Characters I dislike: see above : D

Good Values:
Honor, trying to be as generally productive as possible (as in: do you best, even if nobody's looking), respect, loyalty, being well-informed, being painfully honest

Bad Values
trying to be successful (many people of my age[20] try a little too hard), thinking one deserves even one ounce attention and/or respect, giving up, selfpity,
not understanding that good and bad experiences are necessary in life to develop a proper personality,
looking forward OR back all the time, deceiving and/or trying to control people for selfish reasons,
imitating behavior from the media (i.e. talking and causing drama like people in a TV show) (playing it for laughs is ok of course)

also:
1. can't really generalize a personality that much O.o
2. same as above
3. Probably, if she thinks she can't solve the issue herself.
4. It's ok, I suppose.
5. He sure has a perspective in life, but probably no specific goals, just a general direction he wants to go.
6. Hell yes. Played for laughs, of course.

My daughter recently admitted that she barely knew most of them back in school, they just seem to have crawled out of the wodwork this summer.

Have you tried foothold traps and/or pesticides?

...Also, you have my sympathy for experiencing these horrible things in your personal life.

[Carl-E]

Have you tried foothold traps and/or pesticides?

Not yet.   

Also, more on-topic (sorry for veering so far off) - I like all the characters as such.  But in my personal life, I don't think there are many of them I'd even get the chance to get to know.  Marten would be polite but innocuous, Faye would be irritating, Hanelore and Marigold would both be too shy and reclusive, Sven's too smarmy, Dora would be too busy with her shop, Steve's an ass, and Angus is too focused on Faye.  Jeph's offered us a window into their lives, but for someone from another generation (like me), it's a rare thing to actually make any kind of true contact, unless they impact my life directly in some way, like my other daughter's boyfriend whom I've gotten to know pretty well for obvious reasons. 

But it's nice to be reminded that these youngsters are people, too...

[DSL]

Up until six months ago, I worked with a bunch of people who were largely twentysomethings, with a light seasoning of thirty-, forty- and and fiftysomethings tossed in. All levels of maturity, from the juvenile to wise-beyond-their-years. The least mature were calendar age 47 and 51. I felt pretty simpatico with a few of the more mentally and emotionally mature twentysomethings but there was the unstated gulf; it was difficult not to feel like the dirty old man (or more charitably, the eccentric-but-tolerated uncle) when talking to a younger female coworker). None of the coworkers reminded me of a QC character.

[ProfSciencePHD]

I like everyone, except Dora and Tai. Dora was okay to begin with, now she just grates on me. Tai I've never liked. Marigold doesn't really add anything, so I wouldn't miss her.

1. Is Marten a "Nice Guy"?
That whole "nice guys" website that spawned this argument is so terrible I'm not even going to answer.

2. Is Dora, for lack of better words, a crazy bitch?
No.

3. Should Dora be in therapy?
For the life of me I can't figure out what is actually wrong with the woman. Having bad boyfriends and sibling issues doesn't merit therapy.

4. Is it acceptable for Tai to make a move on Dora now?
Probably, but Tai is so creepy that I don't think anyone would like it if she made a move on them.

5. Does Marten have goals?
No.

6. Is Dale creepy?
We don't see enough of him to know. He's just a bit of a twat, really.