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[tender]

.

[Mr. Doctor]

I have to say that I was not surprised at all when I got the news the day after her death.
I actually thought she was going to die way before.


That doesn't make it any less sad though.But I honestly can't feel too much sympathy when artists with GREAT talent ruin themselves that way.
Hopefully no one will think I'm an asshole. I do think it's a shame that she passed away. But this has always been my position: I hate seeing people with great talent wasting them because of dumb things.

[Tom]

Shame on you. Substance abuse, depression and other ills are very serious yet treatable issues. It's terrifying that instead of offering support to people suffering from these issues we turn their disease into a public joke and source of ridicule. Personally, I find Russel Brand gross, super gross but this blog post is certainly worth your time.

[Mr. Doctor]

Shame on you.

Why?
I'm not taking this subject lightly at all or making jokes about it. That's bad taste for me. Like I said, I really feel sorry that she died, I really feel that way but there's also that second thought in the back of my head when I've seen how some of my closets friends are falling not really for addiction but just the overall disease that is "wasting their lifes in such a sad way" and when you try to help them as uch as you can, there's still no response.

Either you meant someone else by the shame on you or I just simply don't understand why my thoughts are incorrect.

PS: If my english sucks too much, I'm sorry.

[pwhodges]

this blog post is certainly worth your time.

Thanks for that - a truly touching piece of writing.  And:

Whether this tragedy was preventable or not is now irrelevant. It is not preventable today. We have lost a beautiful and talented woman

[Mr. Doctor]

Well, that guy is right. I have to admit that.

[JD]

Personally, I find Russel Brand gross, super gross but

Man I'm glad I'm not the only one.

[Patrick]

I'd like to congratulate her for her first 24 hours of sobriety, at least.

[Zingoleb]

Too soon, Pat.

[Melodic]

you totally stole that line pat

[jwhouk]

The first step is admitting you have a problem. She never got to that point.

[Patrick]

Too soon, Pat.

I wasn't gonna wait the whole 24...

[Lupercal]

Shame on you. Substance abuse, depression and other ills are very serious yet treatable issues. It's terrifying that instead of offering support to people suffering from these issues we turn their disease into a public joke and source of ridicule. Personally, I find Russel Brand gross, super gross but this blog post is certainly worth your time.

They are very serious and very treatable, yes. But it is surely up to the individual to get themselves in there. Hendrix, Keith Moon, Bonham, Phil Lynott etc died due to substance abuse because they had it all too much too fast and never really came to the point of getting rehabilitated (was that less common in the 70s?).

I'm not saying anyone deserves death, but surely people like Winehouse were aware of the consequences of her actions. And these things are only turned into public jokes and sources of ridicule when the person strives for more abuse rather than admitting they have a problem and treating it. And also have to agree that the idea of "wasted talent" does come in here, unfortunately.

[Tom]

It is laughable to even suggest that all addicts are or should be able to admit they have a problem and get it treated.

[Lupercal]

So when they say the first step is admittance...?

After reading a few biographies from various celebrities who have had drug problems, it generally seems to be admit you have a problem, treat problem, and enjoy your life. I don't think that its "laughable" to suggest that. Unless you're a lot more learned about this whole thing than most here? I'm not pretending to be an expert. 

[Tom]

Look, my only experience with addiction largely stems from first year psychology and I'm just going off of the DSM-IV/APA so I'm inclined to disagree with Thomas Szasz's (?) model. He's absolutist in his assertation that addiction is just ultimately choice/free will instead of drugs having pathogenetic outcome that results in a substance abuse disorder. Sure, there are social factors that increase a persons likelihood of taking drugs and developing dependency but this is a disease with clear clinical manifestations and not a result psychatric tyranny to manitain a status quo.

[pwhodges]

(I hope I'm not misunderstanding your assertions.)  The fact that addiction once established is a clinical disease does not mean that awareness is not possible in many or even most cases.  What are you suggesting is the way addicts should be helped?

[Jimor]

The problem is that even though there are very real physiological effects of addiction that make the day-to-day use not much of a choice, and that there are very good treatment programs that can deal with that physical part of it, they aren't effective until a person makes that ultimate decision to get clean and stay that way. This usually doesn't happen until the consequences of an addiction become so obvious and painful that there really isn't another option.

This is why enabling behavior from people around an addict is such a large factor in continued use, it masks those needed consequences, sometimes until it's too late. It's not even a matter of caring or not caring, a lot of our natural instincts to help a friend or family member can be exactly the opposite of what they really need. It's such a topsy-turvy world that exists around an addict that often the very best thing you can do for them is kick them to the curb.

[Tom]

(I hope I'm not misunderstanding your assertions.)  The fact that addiction once established is a clinical disease does not mean that awareness is not possible in many or even most cases.  What are you suggesting is the way addicts should be helped?

No, I agree that selfawareness is possible but I it's also possible to not be self-aware it seems myopic to be absolute about either. As to how to help, I don't have an adequate answer ._.

[jwhouk]

The issue with the late Ms. Winehouse might not be as much about substance addiction but more about self-destructive behavior (or "behaviour" for Mr. Hodges & company).

In that scenario, substance abuse is only a means to an end.

[Tom]

In that case, speaking from personal experience, Winehouse mya have had only a limited sense of control when it came to these self-destructive behaviours. You know, as a result of her psychopathology.

[jwhouk]

And that I don't argue with. In fact, I'd almost bet that was her issue.

Some people, it's alcohol and crack. For others, it's Mountain Dew and Big Macs.

[spoon_of_grimbo]

i have little sympathy for the girl.  yes, addiction is a disease, but it only takes hold after you start abusing a drug or drugs.  nobody forced her to try heroin (and lets face it, it might have been the drink that eventually killed her, but had she not been ruined by skag abuse, her body would've been stronger and more well equipped to deal with the rigors of alcohol abuse), and NOBODY tries heroin oblivious to what it's known to do and the millions of lives it has ruined.

[pwhodges]

and NOBODY tries heroin oblivious to what it's known to do and the millions of lives it has ruined.

So I guess there must be millions of reasons for them to do it anyway that you haven't taken into account.  For starters, try reading some autobiographies of people who went there and managed to come back from the abyss.

(Oh, and perhaps, in its small way, getting into an argument on the Internet is also something we don't do oblivious to the effects it can have...)

[spoon_of_grimbo]

I wasn't being passive aggressive! I was being overtly aggressive, because spoon_of_grimbo was acting like an asshole with a callous disregard for other people when he implied there's no reason to care about people who have mental problems and/or are drug addicts.

as far as drug addicts go - unless the person has become addicted to something they were prescribed or was held at gunpoint and forced to take an illegal drug, then they consciously made the choice to abuse a substance in the first place - knowingly breaking laws and taking any number of monumentally obvious risks.  if they come out of the other side a better person, then jolly well done for them; however i don't see why i should be expected to be sympathetic if they don't.  being in a country where my taxes pay for healthcare, i look at junkies and the like as a drain on the country's and my own resources, as well as a threat to others' lives -  it sickens me that someone with a genuine injury or illness could be left to die because a potentially lifesaving ambulance is busy dealing with someone's self inflicted illness.

and where exactly to mental problems come into this?  i'm willing to be corrected here if i am in fact uninformed on the matter, but from what i can gather, the only mental issues surrounding amy winehouse were the fact that she was an addict, and that addiction is a disease.  but yet again - a disease which only takes hold once the person has initially begun abusing a substance - a choice she made herself, as far as i can see.

[pwhodges]

So presumably you feel that depressed people should have stayed happy, or anxious people should have stayed relaxed?  All bad things can be avoided by simple common sense, or maybe will-power?  What a lovely ideal!  Simple observation of the world around you should show you that things are very much otherwise, and that your response is equivalent to sticking your head in the sand.

[Mr. Doctor]

Even though I agree with most of you guys (specially pwhodges' comments which I find spot-on) I do feel that there's some weird vibe going on as soon as someone has a different opinion, they are suddenly some kind of asshole for not having simpathy for some of those people which I think it's just an unfair thing to say. There are many sides to look at, I haven't read any opinions here that are 100% wrong.

[spoon_of_grimbo]

So presumably you feel that depressed people should have stayed happy, or anxious people should have stayed relaxed?  All bad things can be avoided by simple common sense, or maybe will-power?  What a lovely ideal!  Simple observation of the world around you should show you that things are very much otherwise, and that your response is equivalent to sticking your head in the sand.

This is such bullshit.  Being depressed or anxious are things you cannot necessarily help.  Picking up a needle, filling it with heroin and forcibly injecting it into your arm for the first time, is a CHOICE.  If you've never taken it before, there's no addiction there to force you.  There's a certain amount of stupidity, recklessness (or even sheer ignorance to the dangers involved in any given activity) that I can overlook given tragic/unfortunate circumstances, but to my mind there's no circumstance great enough to excuse someone taking a substance that is WIDELY known to be THAT dangerous, irresponsible and illegal.  And furthermore, it is well out of line to imply I'm some kind of a bad person, simply because I refuse to have sympathy for these people.  Note that my first post here merely said "I have little sympathy for the girl" - at no point did I try and shit on those who ARE sympathizing with her.

[pwhodges]

Being depressed or anxious are things you cannot necessarily help.

And you know what they can do to your judgement?

Maybe you'll never make a seriously bad decision in your life; but if you do, perhaps you could think back to this conversation afterwards.

[Patrick]

I will say that once Eric Clapton stopped using drugs, his music started sucking hardcore.

[spoon_of_grimbo]

Being depressed or anxious are things you cannot necessarily help.

And you know what they can do to your judgement?

Maybe you'll never make a seriously bad decision in your life; but if you do, perhaps you could think back to this conversation afterwards.

so i suppose someone we should sympathise if someone goes and kills a bunch of people, or beats an animal to death, or some other such heinous crime, if they happened to be in a bad place, mentally, at the time?

[Radical AC]

There is a difference in making a decision that negatively effects you, and negatively effects others.  That, and we do make distinctions for things like postpartum depression in the legal system.  #adhominemDISCUSSect.

I will say that once Eric Clapton stopped using drugs, his music started sucking hardcore.

I had a running tally of musicians this was true for back in highschool.  It was over a dozen.  Never could come up with any where the music got better.

[spoon_of_grimbo]

There is a difference in making a decision that negatively effects you, and negatively effects others.

are you implying that the decision to take heroin doesn't go on to effect others negatively too?  even disregarding the fact that it perpetuates the drug trade, there are still the junkie's friends/family to take into account.  it's a fucking selfish decision to make.

[Tom]

so i suppose someone we should sympathise if someone goes and kills a bunch of people, or beats an animal to death, or some other such heinous crime, if they happened to be in a bad place, mentally, at the time?

Jon Stewart has nothing on this false equivalence.

[Lupercal]

I will say that once Eric Clapton stopped using drugs, his music started sucking hardcore.

Woah woah woah. Did you not listen to 461 Ocean Boulevard or Journeyman? Clapton still had it after overcoming his heroin addiction, although I'll admit "Lay Down Sally" is no "Crossroads".

[Zingoleb]

That's stating it lightly.

[idontunderstand]

Being depressed or anxious are things you cannot necessarily help.

And you know what they can do to your judgement?

Maybe you'll never make a seriously bad decision in your life; but if you do, perhaps you could think back to this conversation afterwards.

so i suppose someone we should sympathise if someone goes and kills a bunch of people, or beats an animal to death, or some other such heinous crime, if they happened to be in a bad place, mentally, at the time?

Sorry for them or not, such people suffer from a disease in some form. The same diseases can cause a person to abuse drugs. Personal tragedies such as Winehouse's don't start with the "choice" to inject yourself with heroin, it starts somewhere else. Go ahead, blame society or blame people for their mistakes, but you can't blame someone for being sad and depressed. Or maybe you can.

[Mr. Doctor]

you can't blame someone for being sad and depressed. Or maybe you can.

Pfffff people do that all the time, just look at Shinji (ok that is just an anime but whatever)...

[Akima]

And furthermore, it is well out of line to imply I'm some kind of a bad person, simply because I refuse to have sympathy for these people.

Er... Why? I mean, you're entitled to hold an opinion and express it, but nobody died and gave you some kind of privileged immunity from criticism, or even an entitlement to judgements you personally regard as fair. You certainly don't hesitate to dish it out to "these people", and some of them might have their own ideas about whether your remarks were "out of line".

Note that my first post here merely said "I have little sympathy for the girl" - at no point did I try and shit on those who ARE sympathizing with her.

In at least one case you called what they had to say "bullshit". If that's your opinion, fair enough, but take ownership of it.

[pwhodges]

so i suppose someone we should sympathise if someone goes and kills a bunch of people, or beats an animal to death, or some other such heinous crime, if they happened to be in a bad place, mentally, at the time?

Could be - if we knew the circumstances well enough.  It wouldn't lessen the horror of what had happened, but that's not the only point.  If course, we virtually never do know the circumstances in any detail, or even at all, which makes demonisation an easy choice if that's the way we're inclined.

[idontunderstand]

so i suppose someone we should sympathise if someone goes and kills a bunch of people, or beats an animal to death, or some other such heinous crime, if they happened to be in a bad place, mentally, at the time?

Could be - if we knew the circumstances well enough.  It wouldn't lessen the horror of what had happened, but that's not the only point.  If course, we virtually never do know the circumstances in any detail, or even at all, which makes demonisation an easy choice if that's the way we're inclined.

Well said..

[spoon_of_grimbo]

in fairness, it seems i was being pretty harsh back there, so apologies if i did offend anyone.  i guess there are more sides to all this than i'd really considered

it's just things like heroin abuse, where the negative effect is felt by more than just the abuser (i.e. perpetuates the drug trade and those caught up in it, affects family and friends, etc. etc.) that generally make me see red.

again, sorry for the rants :S

[idontunderstand]

's all good homes.

[Patrick]

so i suppose someone we should sympathise if someone goes and kills a bunch of people, or beats an animal to death, or some other such heinous crime, if they happened to be in a bad place, mentally, at the time?

This is what happened to the drummer from Derek and the Dominoes. Dude killed and dismembered his mom and now he's in a mental institution for life 'cause they figured out afterward that he was an undiagnosed schizophrenic.

Upon learning this, I stopped thinking Varg was quite so metal. Brutal murder? BEEN DONE

[Mr. Doctor]

Varg's case isn't even that brutal tbh... Just stabs. The guy from DatD used a first which is way more hardcore. [Insert some Cannibal Corpse joke here]

[SWOON! at My Gravitas]

Yeah Burzum's great and all, but I'd say Varg is more unintentionally hilarious than metal

[Mr. Doctor]

Dude, just look at Abbath trolling the shit out of Varg.

Abbath is such a cool guy btw.

[Barmymoo]

The fact that there were no drugs in her system doesn't mean that the drugs didn't cause the damage that ultimately killed her, but it is interesting to hear that it was apparently not an overdose that was the final factor.

I was fairly upset to hear that she had died, and also shocked - naively I had thought she would get herself sorted out eventually. I never really heard her and thought "wow, she's amazing" but I did hear a lot of potential and I'm so sad that the world has lost that. Poor, foolish girl, and a life wasted - whatever the reason.

[pwhodges]

Some do get sorted, in the end (e.g. Marianne Faithfull, who reached as near the bottom as it's possible to go and survive); but sadly some do not.  But also, occasionally young people die for other reasons anyway.

[Lummer]

tl;dr: "Shit happens"..