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[mikeybones]

I know as a new user on most forums it's taboo to make your first post a thread. In my defense I used to post infrequently way back and have no clue where/what my info is. Here's the issue that's been nagging me though:Dora and marten split mainly because she had unresolved issues. Faye coaxes her into therapy to work on them. Dora agrees that it's in her best interest as well as the interest of future suitors that she not date til she's got a better handle on things. She even mentions this when asked out by an older male counterpart(you know the guy) So seeing as the story line never mentioned any grand breakthroughs in her therapy , why is she going through wih a romantic involvement with tai? Why are her friends allowing and encouraging her to do so,especially one who so firsthand what her issues can do? It seems beyond irresponsible on all parts. Did I miss something?
Also,why did marten put up with tai always talking about wanting to bed Dora when Dora and he were dating?had tai been a guy friend saying that, I'm pretty sure marten would have told that dude off. Why the double standard?

[Is it cold in here?]

Welcome back, sorta-new person!

Marten probably figured Tai was kidding. In any event, she was respecting the relationship with her actions.

Why are Dora's friends so supportive? I hope it's because they're being supportive. I hope it's not because they have the stupid old sexist idea that girl-girl relationships aren't as real.

[pwhodges]

Why did he put up with it?  Well, presumably because he had no reason not to trust her, even if it was uncomfortable or awkward.  And anyway, he could hold his own at times.

[Abyssalin]

Also do note that Marten and Dora themselves weren't entirely innocent,

I could list the comics if i took the time but there has been more than one occasion where Dora has wondered what Tai was like in bed/naked/etc while still with Marten, and i'm sure Marten has at least once thought what she might have looked like naked (Pretty sure this was after Tai's Clit peircing)

Infact. Here is one i was talking about Dora and Tai

[Carl-E]

I think the OP's points are well made.  For one thing, Dora did have to be threatened to actually start her therapy, and seems to doubt its efficacy.  She knows she has problems in relationships, and we've received evidence of her issues with boys from Sven. 

With the issues she has, I doubt her relationships with women would be much better, but I also wonder if she's even had any serious female relationships.  We know she found out she likes women early on, and that she had a series of alpha-goth boyfriends before Marten, but since we know nothing about her and women, perhaps there was nothing for us to know, beyond some crushes or youthful flirtations/"experiments". 

My point is that she (probably erroneously) may think that things with Tai wouldn't go the way her other relationships have. 


Also, the flush of attraction in the beginning of a new romance will often turn off the participant's brains.  In an old King Arthur movie from the 80's, Nicol Williamson as Merlin says, "Love is deaf as well as blind" when he can't turn Arthur's attention away from Guenevere.  I've come to believe love is actually autistic, shutting out the external world in favor of the internal. 

I'm sure she'll be gushing to her therapist about her new romance, assuming things go well on this first date...

[LTK]

Well, to be fair, at a time when Dora is cautiously eyeing the shallows of the ocean that is relationships, Tai comes along and floods her with love like a helitanker dumping a few thousand liters of water on a forest fire. If things do go wrong, it's not entirely Dora's own fault.

[Tova]

My point is that she (probably erroneously) may think that things with Tai wouldn't go the way her other relationships have. 

I actually suspect that she's avoiding thinking about it at all.

Also, the flush of attraction in the beginning of a new romance will often turn off the participant's brains.

Just so. Especially when you are feeling as flattered as Dora seems to be feeling right now from being pursued.

[Welu]

I think part of the reason the friends, specifically Marten and Faye, are being so supportive is that they have been watching Tai crushing on Dora for what seems like a long time now. Their judgement for Dora's mental well-being could be clouded for their happiness for Tai getting what she's wanted for so long.

[Madmartigan]

I think part of the reason the friends, specifically Marten and Faye, are being so supportive is that they have been watching Tai crushing on Dora for what seems like a long time now. Their judgement for Dora's mental well-being could be clouded for their happiness for Tai getting what she's wanted for so long.

I agree with that which is part of what makes it frustrating.  Seems more like they're teasing her and the like because it is Tai and I have a feeling if it were anyone other than Tai, they wouldn't be acting like this at all.  Which makes the one-sided heavy attraction all the more dangerous to longevity.

[SJCrew]

I do agree that the timing on this development is rather odd, but as it was pointed out before, Dora's insecurity issues stemmed mostly from men. Tai being female may give her a different perspective that women are not as prone to disloyalty, even if it is irrational. If there's one good thing coming out of this, there's the possibility that Dora's soulmate just wasn't meant to be male and she still has a chance at happiness without years of therapy and abstinence.

I'm not going to set predictions on where this will go just yet, at least not until we hear what her therapist has to say.

[mikeybones]

Glad to see there's talk on this,was worried no one else found it...bothersome? I'll add more when I'm not on a phone. Just one quick addition to the discussion. Is Jeph just out to screw over Marten? Faye couldn't be with him because she had issues to work out. Faye works those issues out and ends up with Angus. Dora leaves Marten because of Past relationship issues, and before she resolves those issues,she begins dating again. These women ten down or leave him under the guise that if not for their own problems a relationship can exist, yet when the problem is fixed in Faye's case,she goes to someone else. In Dora's case she doesn't even bother to fix it and goes to some one else. I realize there were other issues in both cases but the underlying issues of the women in both situations played a huge role

[Is it cold in here?]

Is Jeph just out to screw over Marten?

Jeph listed three things that will never appear in the comic: two of the old female bit characters, and happiness for Marten.

Dora is a balance of fear and desire. Fear won with Jim, although by 1963 she was already talking about trying to make it work anyway. It's within the plausible range of human fluctuation for desire to be surging ahead now. The apparent absence of fear is indeed troublesome.

It would be really, really bad if Dora is pursuing this out of curiosity. Curious people should pair up with each other and not with someone as serious as Tai seems to be.

[Carl-E]

...Faye couldn't be with him because she had issues to work out. Faye works those issues out and ends up with Angus. Dora leaves Marten because of Past relationship issues, and before she resolves those issues,she begins dating again.

And don't forget Padma and the crossed-signal relationship.  She had a different issue - falling for him when she also felt she needed to leave - and couldn't reconcile it, and he was clueless about any of it thanks to a lack of communication (on both sides). 

[Tova]

...Faye couldn't be with him because she had issues to work out. Faye works those issues out and ends up with Angus. Dora leaves Marten because of Past relationship issues, and before she resolves those issues,she begins dating again.

And don't forget Padma and the crossed-signal relationship.  She had a different issue - falling for him when she also felt she needed to leave - and couldn't reconcile it, and he was clueless about any of it thanks to a lack of communication (on both sides).

And I would still argue that Marten's inability to deal directly with the issues arising out of Dora's insecurities until it burst out of him in bitter recriminations was a factor in their split. Maybe with an older and wiser head he might have been able to help Dora work through those issues.

[Madmartigan]

Glad to see there's talk on this,was worried no one else found it...bothersome? I'll add more when I'm not on a phone. Just one quick addition to the discussion. Is Jeph just out to screw over Marten? Faye couldn't be with him because she had issues to work out. Faye works those issues out and ends up with Angus. Dora leaves Marten because of Past relationship issues, and before she resolves those issues,she begins dating again. These women ten down or leave him under the guise that if not for their own problems a relationship can exist, yet when the problem is fixed in Faye's case,she goes to someone else. In Dora's case she doesn't even bother to fix it and goes to some one else. I realize there were other issues in both cases but the underlying issues of the women in both situations played a huge role

Pretty much how I see it.

Is Jeph just out to screw over Marten?

Jeph listed three things that will never appear in the comic: two of the old female bit characters, and happiness for Marten.

Dora is a balance of fear and desire. Fear won with Jim, although by 1963 she was already talking about trying to make it work anyway. It's within the plausible range of human fluctuation for desire to be surging ahead now. The apparent absence of fear is indeed troublesome.

It would be really, really bad if Dora is pursuing this out of curiosity. Curious people should pair up with each other and not with someone as serious as Tai seems to be.

Really?  When did he list that?  Marten never finding happiness seems incredibly depressing.

I do agree that the timing on this development is rather odd, but as it was pointed out before, Dora's insecurity issues stemmed mostly from men. Tai being female may give her a different perspective that women are not as prone to disloyalty, even if it is irrational. If there's one good thing coming out of this, there's the possibility that Dora's soulmate just wasn't meant to be male and she still has a chance at happiness without years of therapy and abstinence.

I'm not going to set predictions on where this will go just yet, at least not until we hear what her therapist has to say.

That'd be a very shallow rational.  That's more like an excuse of well, men hurt me so screw men, I'll just try women instead.  Not out of any particular attraction to women, but some irrational logic that women won't hurt her.  I don't think I could ever get behind that kind of relationship. 

[SJCrew]

There's only so much I can gauge coming from a fictional characters head, but I think it's very much plausible. Not the idea that a woman wouldn't hurt her, but the simple fact that she will always see men the same way with her issues intact: selfish, unfaithful assholes that are not to be trusted. The fact that her own brother embodied the issues she's had in her past relationships with males only exacerbates the problem. If Tai's polyamorous ways ruin their relationship, her perspective might change, but I think Sven's influence has pretty much made it a given that she'll have more trouble committing to men.

Let's put it like this. Jim got the no-go, but Tai was an instant makeout. Where else could her mindset be?

[Tova]

Let's put it like this. Jim got the no-go, but Tai was an instant makeout. Where else could her mindset be?

That could well be an issue of distance. More time has passed, the wounds aren't as fresh. It's easier to fool yourself that it won't be a problem this time.

[Carl-E]

Jeph listed three things that will never appear in the comic: two of the old female bit characters, and happiness for Marten.

Really?  When did he list that?  Marten never finding happiness seems incredibly depressing.

I believe it was in a Tumblr Q/A dump a while back - shortly after the breakup, but before Padma? 

[Is it cold in here?]

http://jephjacques.com/post/11265563239/qa-dump-09

[Madmartigan]

http://jephjacques.com/post/11265563239/qa-dump-09

It IS Jeph though.  Could be fooling.  Also, wouldn't ANY new strips with Marten in relationships then be a self-fulfulling prophesy of failure?  I'd just be inclined to skip those strips then.

Back on topic.  Was Jim shortly after therapy?  He also had a kid.  Keep that in mind.  He probably wanted stable and Dora couldn't give that.

Straight to make-out with Tai?  Legitimately questionable TERRIBLE call right there.

[Carl-E]

Also, wouldn't ANY new strips with Marten in relationships then be a self-fulfulling prophesy of failure?  I'd just be inclined to skip those strips then.

Which is why we were all so psyched by Padma. 

Back on topic.  Was Jim shortly after therapy?  He also had a kid.  Keep that in mind.  He probably wanted stable and Dora couldn't give that.

Jim was right after the starting of therapy.  Dora wasn't only not ready for him, but was definitely unprepared for his daughter. 

[TheEvilDog]

The more I see of Tai and Dora, the more I think of an oil fire and someone is about to throw water on it. Hot (not that kind of hot), explosive and someone is going to get burned while half the room goes up in flames.

As DSL said in the discussion thread, it's a pedestal situation and when it breaks (and it will), both of them are going to be really hurt. And I doubt Dora is going to say "Well, therapy has made me realise that the lion's share of the blame is with me, it's my fault." She's going to take a big step back.

[pwhodges]

Marten is friends with them both; he'll have to take quite a lot of the blast when the explosion happens.

[Is it cold in here?]

Faye's therapist was startled, but not worried, when the Sven affair started. Maybe Dora is making more rapid progress than anyone expected.

Yeah, right. Maybe she's completely ready for a relationship and it will quietly work out with mutual acceptance and no drama. Right.

[idontunderstand]

Would anyone actually describe Marten as miserable? DOOMED TO NEVER FIND HAPPINESS.

I don't see him like that at all.

[Redball]

Well, Marten's human. So is Jeph. So Marten may yet find happiness. Of course, I hope so.

[Carl-E]

Actually, Marten's a character, and those are the words of his author.  So no, he's not miserable, because he has no clue as to his inability to find happiness. 


It takes  lifetime for that kind o misery to set in...

[idontunderstand]

My feeling is that he already is mostly happy though. Or at least he completely has the potential to become happy, if he could allow himself to be.

[Abyssalin]

Actually, Marten's a character, and those are the words of his author.  So no, he's not miserable, because he has no clue as to his inability to find happiness. 


It takes  lifetime for that kind o misery to set in...

This is dangerously close to the classic "Fictional Characters have no Personality" debate.

[pwhodges]

My feeling is that he already is mostly happy though. Or at least he completely has the potential to become happy, if he could allow himself to be.

Marten is not happy, but in many respects he may well be content.  This is a feeling I often decide I have myself.

[Carl-E]

Actually, Marten's a character, and those are the words of his author.  So no, he's not miserable, because he has no clue as to his inability to find happiness. 


It takes  lifetime for that kind o misery to set in...

This is dangerously close to the classic "Fictional Characters have no Personality" debate.

Oh no, he has a personality, and it's pretty upbeat. 

And that's because he has no clue as to his author's plans.  As have we. 

[mikeybones]

The idea that he's content mashes well with the comic title
Yea if he's destined to not find happiness in a relationship then why Boyer reading any story arc involving his love life? We already know the outcome.

[Carl-E]

There are a lot of twists, turns and hijinks between the beginning and inevitable end of a romantic relationship! 


Besides, it's well worth the price of admission...   

[Madmartigan]

There are a lot of twists, turns and hijinks between the beginning and inevitable end of a romantic relationship! 


Besides, it's well worth the price of admission...   

Possibly.  The problem comes though if we grow to really like some of his romantic interests yet to know that character is essentially doomed.  Like Padma.

[jwhouk]

"Questionably Content". Heh. He could use that as a new band name.

[frogfactory]

Am I the only person who doesn't buy Dora/Tai?  They just seem like a really poor match to me.  Sticking the one bi character to the major lesbian character also seems a bit off when they're such different people.  I don't expect they'll last.  In fact, I hope they won't.  Don't get me wrong - I would root for a better matched gay/bi partnership.

[pwhodges]

Actually, if you look around the forum, you'll find this is not an uncommon viewpoint.

[Abyssalin]

Everyone has summed up Dora/Tai as not a great combo, Don't get me wrong though, it's not specifically because it's "The Lesbian and the only bi chick" issue,

It's because of what Dora is fast becoming, which as everyone elses viewpoint seems to agree with aswell as mine, She is now coming off as a vapid attention-seeker, pretty much regressing to the last time she was truly Bi, which, if my personality reading isn't skewed to hell, would indicate high school, so in short Dora is now grooming a teenagers personality in the middle of her 20's.. which is ridiculous.

That said, Tai having a romantic plot is long overdue properly after her whole sub-arc of trying to become Monogamous again, but Dora just isn't the person for this, Hell as impossible as it is due to it just being a ridiculous concept, but at this moment Tai/Marigold would seem more natural in my eyes.

[Madmartigan]

Everyone has summed up Dora/Tai as not a great combo, Don't get me wrong though, it's not specifically because it's "The Lesbian and the only bi chick" issue,

It's because of what Dora is fast becoming, which as everyone elses viewpoint seems to agree with aswell as mine, She is now coming off as a vapid attention-seeker, pretty much regressing to the last time she was truly Bi, which, if my personality reading isn't skewed to hell, would indicate high school, so in short Dora is now grooming a teenagers personality in the middle of her 20's.. which is ridiculous.

That said, Tai having a romantic plot is long overdue properly after her whole sub-arc of trying to become Monogamous again, but Dora just isn't the person for this, Hell as impossible as it is due to it just being a ridiculous concept, but at this moment Tai/Marigold would seem more natural in my eyes.

As I said when the comic first started to seriously consider Tai/Dora, they just weren't/aren't compatible at this point in their lives.  Dora is a self-made, reasonably successful young women in her mid to late 20s and if not for the Sven issue, would consider herself very successful.  Tai is a college stoner who means well, is having issues of polyamorous and  monogamy.  Still a party girl, but looking to change.

They both want change, but vastly different kinds related to where they are in life.  They are two people with massive relationship issues, Dora the worse, who should have waiting before jumping into a potentially disastrous affair.

You seem spot on with your connection that Dora is reverting to her HS days when she had girlfriends, possibly even her coven days (where she may have been equally self-absorbed).  Being with Tai is already stunting the growth of therapy and bringing out an even worse side of Dora.  The dress attire does make sense.  Probably been a long time since she was with a girl and it was during a period of immaturity.  It is definitely unsettling to a gal with her class, business success, and age reverting to this mess.  And this is ONLY a day into the relationship.  Imagine what subconscious stuff would come out down the line.

The Lesbian/Bi thing isn't even an issue at all.  This is one problem with decent age differences.  Different places in life and one or both sides trying to "age down" or "age up" to appease their partner.  Just ughgh.  A massive train wreck is coming.  Not sure when, but it still come and I'm betting it'll be a worse kind of breakup than Marten/Dora if they let it last a reasonable amount of time.

Someone needs to nip this in the butt.   

I'll be impressed if Jeph manages to pull this off believably because I just see no chemistry, connection, stability, and sanity (I get this is QC, so sanity is ALWAYS in question) but man oh man.

[Is it cold in here?]

Relationships are consummately unpredictable.

My friend insisted that he knew the people involved and that this was true.

He was an accountant. He'd go to dinner parties and ask to be excused after he finished eating so he could go to a corner and read a math book.

She was a model, accustomed to throwing parties and greeting her guests at the door wearing high heels and a pair of red panties.

The first time they met, he asked her out and she said yes.

On their first date, he asked her to marry him, and she said yes.

At last sighting, they were still happily married.

If that can work, Dora/Tai can work. Though it sure looks like they're both in transition right now, which means each one is shooting at a moving target.

[idontunderstand]

One thing I'm sort of chewing around is that it may be better for Dora to be with a woman at this point, as that may not trigger her insecurity issues as much as a man much, seeing as her bad experiences seems to have been mainly with men. But, of course, no guarantee for a happy relationship there.

[Is it cold in here?]

It might bypass her fear of being mistreated, but not her fear of being unattractive.

[DSL]

Whether Dora/Tai works as a couple, or whether I or you or anyone else likes Dora/Tai as a couple, is beside the point. The point is how Jeph depicts the characters handling the relationship and its aftermath, if any.

[idontunderstand]

But we can't discuss how Jeph depicts the characters, can we?

[Emperor Norton]

I think perhaps the most ironic and interesting thing about this situation is that Dora feels like she is doing what she fears people are doing to her when she is in a relationship. She feels like people are just "settling" for her and just like the idea of a relationship rather than really wanting to be with her.

Where as that seems exactly like what she is doing to Tai. It seems like she is interested because Tai is pursuing, not because Tai is Tai.

[Madmartigan]

One thing I'm sort of chewing around is that it may be better for Dora to be with a woman at this point, as that may not trigger her insecurity issues as much as a man much, seeing as her bad experiences seems to have been mainly with men. But, of course, no guarantee for a happy relationship there.

That's just avoiding the problem entirely, not solving.  Can't say I agree with life decisions such as those.  She needs to get over her hurdle with men.  Many not for romantic purposes in the future, but over the hurdle in general.

And what isn't to say she runs into the same issue with the ladies as well?  Then she's stuck up a river with no paddle.

Agreed Emperor Norton.  You'd think with the amount of time they've been around, there'd be at least SOME level of attraction to Tai in the romantic sense to even go out on one date.  But, as you said, it is a struggle to see beyond Dora being interested because Tai is so heavily pursuing her.  There's still that sense of Dora on a pedestal to Tai, Dora treating Tai like a younger sister (dunno if I'll ever get beyond that even if they do last.  Just weird), and the regression socially to her seemingly adolescent bi days.

[DSL]

But we can't discuss how Jeph depicts the characters, can we?

Why not?

In fact, since what we see of the characters (including how we project our own experiences/prejudices &c. onto them) has everything to do with how Jeph depicts them, how can we discuss anything else?

[Boxilar]

I agree with the general consensus that Dora is reverting. I floated the idea at the beginning of the week that she hadn't dated girls which was proved wrong by this weeks strips. Reverting to what she did when dating girls is the only plausible explanation for going back to a teenage goth look.

In the bigger picture, I'm worried about what will happen to the larger social circle if Dora/Tai goes out as spectacularly as the majority seems to think it will. The group of friends mostly survived intact after Marten and Dora broke up, but as break ups go, it was fairly amicable. And there was still a period where there was a subtle dance the friends were doing around both Marten and Dora until they reconciled and went back to "friends" status.

In real life, breakups within a circle of friends can cause said circles to implode, forcing people to choose who they are more loyal to out of the pair. There are so many delicate connections that could be shattered here and cause lasting damage to all the people involved.

I really hope Dora is taking this more seriously than she seems to be.

[idontunderstand]

But we can't discuss how Jeph depicts the characters, can we?

Why not?

In fact, since what we see of the characters (including how we project our own experiences/prejudices &c. onto them) has everything to do with how Jeph depicts them, how can we discuss anything else?

Not too sure what you mean. We can't discuss whether they are a good couple, but we can discuss how they are depicted. What do you mean by depicted? The way they are drawn? I'm honestly confused.

[DSL]

Drawn, written (which in a comic includes the drawing) ... everything that influences how we see them. Because that's the only way they exist.