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[nekowafer]

I have had problems with eye contact for as long as I can remember. I had a feeling of it letting people see my soul, as a kid. As an adult I realize that this isn't true. But it still freaks me out.

I can make eye contact with people I've been intimate with; either a relationship or casual sex. I can do it with some close friends, as well. But it makes me feel almost sick to do it with anyone else.

My therapist tells me that it's incredibly important, and a change that I must make, whether I want to or not. What do you think? Is it that important?

I do realize that it is one of those things people pay attention to when you're interviewing for a job, for example. But is it something that is important outside of that sort of situation?

[Papersatan]

I think it depends where you look when you are avoiding their eyes and who you are talking to. 

Avoiding eye contact can make you seem shy, embarrassed or insincere.  This doesn't matter much when you are getting change from a cashier, but it does when you are trying to make a friend. 

Maybe it would be helpful to look at it in the reverse.  If someone is trying to make eye contact while talking to you and you keep avoiding it then they are opening themselves, offering their soul to be looked into, but you are refusing to do so.

[pwhodges]

But too much eye contact without a degree of switching away can seem forced, insincere or aggressive; a degree of balance is also required, which may vary according to circumstances (a salesman would be expected to be more in-yer-face than many people, for instance).

[Zingoleb]

I'd just like to point out how well your avatar suits this thread.

[Elysiana]

^ That's a genius observation!

Neko, I've always had trouble with this, too, even with people I'm close to. When I was younger I remember thinking that if you made eye contact with someone too long they'd think you liked them (as in, were interested in them), and so I made sure I barely looked at anyone - especially the boys I really did like, but it extended to everyone else too eventually. I learned to cross my arms so I wouldn't seem too forward, and never cross my legs with my toe pointing at them... I had all sorts of rules designed to protect me from anyone thinking that I might like them, because for whatever reason that was horrifying to me.

[Welu]

I'm the same with eye contact, the best I've gotten is to look around the person or at their general area. I understand this isn't great but I try to at least face them. My boyfriend and a couple close friends I can make eye contact with for short periods but as soon as I'm aware of it I get really uncomfortable.
I am a sales assistant and it used to be commented on a lot (by my coworkers/boss, the only time a customer mentioned it was when they were doing a stealth inspection) but four years later, they've all seen me try and I've just not got the hang of it. Even the regular customers know I'm not trying to be rude, because I still smile and talk and try to have an approachable body language.

I'm not sure what to say about job interviews. I think I usually end up staring at the person or doing the looking-around-them thing.

[Redball]

Eye contact to me is a fleeting contact with someone i'm talking to, not making contact and holding it. Seems to me it could be a learned thing, but I'm not sure how it would be learned. Never thought of it as showing romantic interest, unless it was someone I wasn't talking to, and she caught me eyeing her. I don't think I'm too old to blush in that case.

[nekowafer]

I feel like looking people in the eye seems rather intimate. Like you said, Elysiana, it seems like I'm telling them I like them. Even though I know that that is not what it means, it still feels too close to me.

I guess the best question to ask is, how long should I be making eye contact, and when do I look away? I'm assuming this is not an easy question to answer. I feel like most people just learn this sort of thing instinctively.

[Is it cold in here?]

If I correctly remember the class I took, about 70% of the time.

In an early-stage personal safety situation, giving someone enough eye contact can make him feel respected and thus could forestall some kinds of escalation.

I bet you get along well with cats! They seem to feel safer without eye contact.

"What's the difference between an introverted computer geek and an extroverted computer geek? The extroverted one lifts his gaze when he's talking to you to stare at your shoes instead of his own."

[Redball]

I guess the best question to ask is, how long should I be making eye contact, and when do I look away? I'm assuming this is not an easy question to answer. I feel like most people just learn this sort of thing instinctively.

My first thought, since I'm alone in the house with no one to check it out on, is to tell you to flick your eyes at the face or eyes of the person you're talking to for a second, then away. Sometimes you'll look at each other at the same moment. My second thought is to try it out with a close friend, i.e., practice on a friend. My third thought is to check out whatever you find on the web such as this: http://www.succeedsocially.com/eyecontact. That article makes it look like a difficult habit to acquire and retain in adulthood. But perhaps if it improves the quality of conversations you have, the reward would help to retain the habit. But I'm just wingin' it here. I think I make eye contact often enough. Sometimes I do it consciously, but I've no idea what has led me to do so.

[LTK]

I guess eye contact is one of those things we all need to learn by experience. Maybe some people do pick up social conventions without having to think about it, but in the end, all the things nobody tells you about, you need to find out for yourself. Doesn't matter whether it comes easy or hard.

I'm pretty sure I fall in the 'hard' category, because I used to have a severe lack of social self-conscious, and things that may or may not be socially accepted never even crossed my mind. Even now, the idea of being able to accurately tell what thoughts and opinions another person might have about me seems incomprehensible. Then the thought of the possibility that two people are sharing their individual thoughts about me between them, without my knowledge, makes any kind of informed social interaction seem so mindbogglingly complex so as to be nearly impossible. If there's anything like social intelligence, I must not possess it.

Anyway. I'm getting pretty good at modifying my own social behaviour as time goes by. Making more eye contact is one of those things. I want people to like me, basically. I want to connect with people. Eye contact makes sure you're both actually paying attention to one another. You know they notice you, and they know you notice them, so at least you can be sure of one thing: the whole world is not passing you by as if you didn't exist.

I guess if you asked me how long and how often eye contact is appropriate, I'd estimate that I usually look away for a second after ten seconds, and look a person in the eye at least half the time. But it's just something you have to learn to be comfortable with and not to think too much about. I really doubt anyone makes mental notes about whether or not the person they're talking to is making an appropriate amount of eye contact. No normal person is that critical.

I bet you get along well with cats! They seem to feel safer without eye contact.

Ah yes. I think unbroken eye contact is about equivalent to a raised fist in cat language.

[nekowafer]

Oh and yes, I do get along very well with cats. Despite my propensity for kissing them right on the nose or cheeks.

[Redball]

So maybe those of us who routinely make eye contact and those of us who don't will pay attention and report back?

I have two cats. My Siamese male rarely makes eye contact with me. The tuxedo female makes eye contact and holds my gaze for a minute or more. What is she seeing? And I don't kiss the cats and discourage the Siamese from kissing me on the lips, but I'll bite either on the scruff of the neck or lick the fur there. Or both.

[Is it cold in here?]

Cats don't always understand it when a human does it, but an important phrase in their body language is to interrupt their gaze with a long slow blink. It means "I am not putting a target lock on you".  Sometimes I blink back, and the cat blinks again, and we get a game going.

There may be some biology to it, not just social convention. Lack of eye contact is a common condition among people with autism.

Then you get into cultural variations. Police in ethnically diverse areas have to be trained that citizens from some cultures will look away because that's how they defer to authority figures, not because they're ignoring the officer. I've seen American women advised to wear dark sunglasses in some countries because their habit of looking at the people they're conversing with translates into the local body language dialect as "let's fuck".

[TRVA123]

When I was travelling in Italy and Spain I had to wear dark glasses. I would make brief eye contact with men walking down the street and they would often take that as a "come hither" signal. It was kind of annoying... In the US that brief eye contact usually makes the menfolk back off or at most just nod their head to acknowledge me.

[Carl-E]

My attention wanders.  I'll make eye contact, but I'll also look away to whatever I'm doing while talking, and sometimes start doing something (so I can look away?  I dunno).  My gaze wanders, though.  Off the eyes, onto other parts of the body I'm talking with.  And some people (because of the insane glasses I wear) can't tell if I'm making eye contact or not. 

[Pilchard123]

Cats don't always understand it when a human does it, but an important phrase in their body language is to interrupt their gaze with a long slow blink. It means "I am not putting a target lock on you".  Sometimes I blink back, and the cat blinks again, and we get a game going.

I do that with my cats and other animals too. If I'm watching a hedgehog in the garden that knows I'm around, I'll do things that obviously break my concentration, so that it can see I'm not stalking it. I bet I look a right plonker to anyone else watching.

[Abyssalin]

Eye contact is a big deal, it signifies everything already pointed out on this thread and more, it is the first thing people use to find out things, simply from how engaging you are to how your mood is, that said, i find it awkward.

As a person who regularly does presentations for things in college classes, i find it EXTREMELY unnerving when people in the audience try and hold your eye contact, for whatever reason they have, it instantly makes me feel flustered and clumsy, I'm a person who will avoid extended eye contact and instead use my body language to accentuate whatever it is the person needs to know, you could  i'm one of those people who use hand motions when speaking, simply to help get my point across in exchange of eye contact,

That said, my main reason for avoiding eye contact is again what Neko and others have said, Giving the idea that you like someone, I have noticed that when around someone i am interested in i get the most basic phase of eye dilation in relation to arousal/stimulation, mostly due to the extra surge of emotions of being around someone i am interested in, and i do my best to avoid eye contact as it is incredibly easy to notice when my eyes are like this due to the lenses of my glasses making my eyes appear bigger.

TL:DR, Eye contact is a tricky system, I avoid it like many of yourselves for a myriad of reasons from belying feelings to plain silly things like thinking my eyes are unnatractive because of their color.

[Akima]

Eye contact is heavily subject to cultural conditioning, and varies a lot in different countries. As a little girl, I was taught *not* to maintain eye contact, especially with people of perceived higher social status, and part of adjusting to Australian culture involved learning the different standards that apply here. The idea that someone *must* maintain eye-contact in any one particular way, or is demonstrating some definite thing if they do not, is as chauvinistic as demanding that they all speak English.

[Abyssalin]

Eye contact is heavily subject to cultural conditioning, and varies a lot in different countries. As a little girl, I was taught *not* to maintain eye contact, especially with people of perceived higher social status, and part of adjusting to Australian culture involved learning the different standards that apply here. The idea that someone *must* maintain eye-contact in any one particular way, or is demonstrating some definite thing if they do not, is as chauvinistic as demanding that they all speak English.

I realize what you are saying is very truthful, but as you know different cultures invoke different standards, In most of the UK, it is considered rude to speak to someone while not at least initiating eye contact a few times, even if it is brief, it's perceived that making eye contact is a sign of respect to the person you are speaking with and is supposed to make them feel that you are engaging with them within a conversation, and also as a sign of confidence.

[Patrick]

I am such a terrible eye-contact offender in informal situations. If you want eye contact out of me, we have to be friends, amicable acquaintances, family, or introduced by one of the above. If we're strangers or neutral/"I don't really like you" acquaintances, it's going to be damn near impossible to get me to even look at you like I realize you're there.

The rules are rewritten for attractive females though. When it comes to attraction I'm excruciatingly shy about ever getting up the nerve to talk, but I sure do love smiling big at pretty girls if our eyes meet. They generally smile back, and in my opinion, the greatest of life's little pleasures is trading smiles with a pretty girl.

[Abyssalin]

and in my opinion, the greatest of life's little pleasures is trading smiles with a pretty girl.

This is what gets me through the boring Monday's full day of college.

[idontunderstand]

Because of my hearing problem I read lips a lot, mostly subconsciously. This creates a problem when it comes to eye contact, since I both tend to stare at people when they talk, but not quite into their eyes. The effect is somewhere between Woody Allen and Hannibal Lecter. Sometimes I notice I make someone uncomfortable and I look away and try to hear what they say without looking at them, with varying results.. people can get annoyed when someone both won't look into their face and also don't reply/reply in a weird way to what they're saying, since it makes me seem nonchalant. So it's a difficult balancing there..

[Pilchard123]

Hannibal Lecter and you're a psychopath in a hockey mask? Hm...

[nekowafer]

I even feel slightly strange looking my cats or ferrets in the eyes. But they can't tell me how weird they think I am, so that makes it better. I'm pretty well convinced that people I stare at think I'm weird. That has as much to do with hating eye contact as it does with my lack of self-esteem. My therapist was saying that people will think I'm not confident if I don't look at them. Well, whether I'm confident or not, I'm perfectly fine with people underestimating me. Better than them overestimating me and being disappointed.

I actually thought for a while that I was on the autism spectrum. No official diagnosis or anything like that, but it would have explained many things.

I can't read people's body language well either - now I'm wondering, is it because I'm not looking at them directly more often?

[Redball]

For 15-20 years, I've gotten smiles from pretty young girls I pass on the street, in the mall, that I'd have died to get in my 20s. A result of eye contact.

[nekowafer]

And see, that sort of thing doesn't matter to me in the least. I can certainly understand that others would enjoy it. But I don't really want random strangers to smile at me.

[LTK]

I actually thought for a while that I was on the autism spectrum. No official diagnosis or anything like that, but it would have explained many things.

I can't read people's body language well either - now I'm wondering, is it because I'm not looking at them directly more often?

Yesterday I had a lecture from a developmental psychology researcher. She said that, when you pick a mental illness from the DSM, like autism, ADHD or bipolar disorder, and look at the list of symptoms, then you're like, duh, tons of people fit that description! I could fit that description, and I'm not sick, am I? But then, when you meet someone who actually does have the disorder, it suddenly falls into place. You can tell there's something wrong with them in a way that can't be summed up by a list of symptoms.

Body language - yeah, you gotta learn to start paying attention to that as well. Social skills are just that: skills, which you have to learn and practice. I remember a primary school teacher claiming that there's a noticeable difference when a toddler has spent a few extra months in preschool when it comes to their social skills. The things that we don't learn as children, we have to catch up on as adults.

[Elysiana]

Because of my hearing problem I read lips a lot, mostly subconsciously. This creates a problem when it comes to eye contact, since I both tend to stare at people when they talk, but not quite into their eyes. The effect is somewhere between Woody Allen and Hannibal Lecter. Sometimes I notice I make someone uncomfortable and I look away and try to hear what they say without looking at them, with varying results.. people can get annoyed when someone both won't look into their face and also don't reply/reply in a weird way to what they're saying, since it makes me seem nonchalant. So it's a difficult balancing there..

You just got me thinking, and I realized I do this too. I have some minor hearing issues and I always do better if I either read their lips, or completely focus on something different and turn my head to hear the person. What this sometimes ends up meaning is that I look down at someone's chest as I process what they're saying >_<

[Pilchard123]

Well, that could be awkward...

[Papersatan]

Eye contact is heavily subject to cultural conditioning, and varies a lot in different countries. As a little girl, I was taught *not* to maintain eye contact, especially with people of perceived higher social status, and part of adjusting to Australian culture involved learning the different standards that apply here. The idea that someone *must* maintain eye-contact in any one particular way, or is demonstrating some definite thing if they do not, is as chauvinistic as demanding that they all speak English.

I actually had a 'yay diversity" video at a job once that brought up eye contact as one of the cultural differences that one should be sensitive about.  It was set up as a poorly acted role play thing where the one white guy says to the other about an Asian woman "uggh she is so stuck up, she won't even look at me!" and the other explains that it is a cultural difference and they should be sensitive to that. This of course changed his mind and they all went off to lunch together or whatever.

[Pilchard123]

Whee, Aesop videos! I never get the point of those. In general, the ones that pay any attention are (not) doing whatever the video tells them they should (not) be doing, and the ones that are doing the "wrong" thing don't care so don't pay attention. Of course, there are exceptions, but...

It's like how whole-class detentions (how I hated teachers that did that) were at school; if the class had to return later, those that were clean turned up on time and sat the whole thing, those that were the actual troublemakers rolled up late, if at all. But then, that was a few years ago, so I'm just moaning for the sake of it.

[Redball]

And see, that sort of thing doesn't matter to me in the least. I can certainly understand that others would enjoy it. But I don't really want random strangers to smile at me.

Interesting in that I don't know if I'm smiling at them or not. It seems like I just catch their eye and see a smile. It matters to me, when I think about it, because I realize that it's a way of connecting to those around me. I also engage a server in a restaurant or at a checkout counter. Flirting? I don't think so. Pleasant feel-good social contact both ways? I hope so.

[Is it cold in here?]

Eye contact is heavily subject to cultural conditioning, and varies a lot in different countries. As a little girl, I was taught *not* to maintain eye contact, especially with people of perceived higher social status, and part of adjusting to Australian culture involved learning the different standards that apply here. The idea that someone *must* maintain eye-contact in any one particular way, or is demonstrating some definite thing if they do not, is as chauvinistic as demanding that they all speak English.

If, on the other hand, someone finds it prohibitively difficult to make eye contact regardless of the cultural context, then that's an appropriate issue for a therapist to raise.

[Barmymoo]

I read somewhere that in a conversation, the person listening usually watches the face of the speaker for nuanced clues as to their meaning, and to indicate they're paying attention, while the speaker glances to the listener (maybe to check if they are understanding and listening) and then looks away more. I've noticed this to be the case in most of my interactions with people. I think it helps, though, to remember that some people concentrate better when they're not looking and apparently are concentrating on something else - I vividly remember a boy at my school who I often sat next to, and he would doodle and look at his paper when the teacher was talking, but always be able to repeat what was said and give intelligent answers. He just had to occupy his eyes and hands while he listened.

Something I've noticed in the USA is that people find it rude if you walk by them on the street without acknowledging them (at least, not in city centres but in the smaller places where there are fewer people). It is unusual for people to say hello to strangers walking past in the UK, and in fact once I made eye contact and gave a small smile to two men walking past me near my college, and they mugged me.

[Redball]

I think in the small towns, people think they may know you, they should know you, they can't quite place you. So they wave. I've lived on a dead-end street in the city, a dead-end road in the country, and most people driving down the narrow road wave at oncoming cars and people out in their yards if they catch their eye.

[Carl-E]

I used to be amazed at my father, the way he could engage any clerk or worker in small talk, speak with anyone he met intelligently on nearly any topic... I was so socially awkward it was hard to talk to anyone my age (I was more comfortable with teachers or adults, though). 

I now see myself doing exactly what he did that amazed me. 



I guess we really do learn through exposure and emulation...


Oh, and Redball, I seem to be getting the same reaction from young women.  It's a little weird, but very ... uplifting? 

[Pilchard123]

neko, have you changed your avatar? It sort of "un-blinks" now, and I never noticed it doing so before...

[pwhodges]

It's done that for ever - but it took a while before I noticed as well!

[nekowafer]

I definitely prefer walking around in larger cities, despite the large amount of people. I'm less likely to be noticed and therefore paid attention to. But then I also have a large nose ring which can make some people stare at me so... things are a little awkward for me almost anywhere.

I love that most people don't realize my avatar is blinking. But Zingoleb is correct, it fits this thread pretty well. Though that has more to do with taking Myspace-style pics than my aversion to eye contact...

[idontunderstand]

Because of my hearing problem I read lips a lot, mostly subconsciously. This creates a problem when it comes to eye contact, since I both tend to stare at people when they talk, but not quite into their eyes. The effect is somewhere between Woody Allen and Hannibal Lecter. Sometimes I notice I make someone uncomfortable and I look away and try to hear what they say without looking at them, with varying results.. people can get annoyed when someone both won't look into their face and also don't reply/reply in a weird way to what they're saying, since it makes me seem nonchalant. So it's a difficult balancing there..

You just got me thinking, and I realized I do this too. I have some minor hearing issues and I always do better if I either read their lips, or completely focus on something different and turn my head to hear the person. What this sometimes ends up meaning is that I look down at someone's chest as I process what they're saying >_<

These things are really difficult to explain so I'm glad I somehow got through! Most people are pretty cool about me staring at them once I've explained why I do it, so.. I need to get better at telling people beforehand.

[Carl-E]

It's usually easiest to just state it right up front.  My sister in law lost almost all her hearing in her left ear a few years ago, and whenever someone sits on that side she just says, "I'm not going to hear a thing you say if you sit there!" 


Of course, my brother (her husband) usually sits on that side...

[idontunderstand]

It's not very easy though. But that's another thread..

[pwhodges]

My wife tells people she's deaf* straight off now.  But only since I persuaded her of the benefits of that, and also that modern - in the 1990s - hearing aids were better than relying on lip-reading.  She does regret, though, that her lip-reading skills have atrophied as a result.


* Not completely, but major loss.  At school, her reports said things like "it's as if she doesn't hear what's said to her", and then discussed the possibility that she was ESN rather than testing her hearing!  Fortuitously, she managed to avoid "special school" (they had a Jewish quota, and her father refused to send her there as a result), and eventually got to university, where a fellow student was the first person ever to recognise her deafness; they are still friends.

[nekowafer]

I have pretty terrible hearing, and generally announce that. But I can't really read lips at all, and I'm one of those people that notices every tiny detail when I do look at someone. So if I'm actually looking at my boss's face while speaking to her, I am distracted by the dry skin on her nose and the wrinkles and dyed hair and so on. If I'm looking at my feet or the chair next to me, I'm less distracted.

[Lines]

I have to look at people in order to listen to them. I become easily distracted by movement, so I tend to look away a lot, but I have to find my way back to the person's face if I want to hear the rest of what they are saying. Sometimes I feel rude, because I'm sure people have thought I was checking them out based on the glances I give them when I'm talking to someone else, but I'm not. They moved, I noticed, and had to see what was moving and why.

Of course when I'm walking down the hall and probably should look at people, I don't. I get lost in my head and have had people say my name loudly or wave at me frantically in order to catch my attention, even if they're right in front of me. When I was a kid, I'd stare off into space and it would make people uncomfortable and think I was staring at them even if I wasn't actually looking at them. Now I think I've learned to stare at inanimate objects, like my desk or a wall, because I don't seem to do this much anymore.

I don't look at people in cities most of the time, but I will when there are few people around. But it's a one time glance and if I don't meet an eye right away, I immediately stop looking. I think it's weird to look at people for more than a second when walking past them if they aren't looking at you. I don't think it's rude for people to not look back, though, because I had to force myself to look at people and not the ground. I used to stare down when walking, but that's not good for multiple reasons, so I learned to focus on faces or at least the tops of heads. Then at least I can see where I'm going!

[Redball]

My wife would stare at people, enough to make me uncomfortable enough to point it out to her. I don't think I ever learned what was going on in her head, whether she was taking in details or otherwise thinking about the person, usually a stranger, at whom she was staring, or if she simply got lost in some unconnected thought.

[LTK]

I have pretty terrible hearing, and generally announce that. But I can't really read lips at all, and I'm one of those people that notices every tiny detail when I do look at someone. So if I'm actually looking at my boss's face while speaking to her, I am distracted by the dry skin on her nose and the wrinkles and dyed hair and so on.

I do exactly the same thing, but it doesn't appear to distract me enough to lose track of what I or the other person is saying. So if I'm looking at someone who's speaking to me, I usually pay close attention to the colour of their eyes, their mascara or other make-up. Maybe that's distracting from any possible anxiety about eye contact; you could try it.

[Lines]

My wife would stare at people, enough to make me uncomfortable enough to point it out to her. I don't think I ever learned what was going on in her head, whether she was taking in details or otherwise thinking about the person, usually a stranger, at whom she was staring, or if she simply got lost in some unconnected thought.

This might sound creepy, but I do analyze the shapes in peoples'  bodies. I don't know if that's what she did, but a few of my artist friends have admitted to doing the same thing.

[Redball]

That doesn't seem creepy. I worried that her stare made the objects uncomfortable.