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[Grognard]

Call me a sucker if you must, but I like the traditional Victorian ways of asking the Parent's permission (even if it is only a formality) and 'taking an arrow to the knee' of  a proposal.  Any young man who comes for my daughter better have his shit IN LINE.

But anyway: I paid in blood (literally) for my wife's engagement ring. 21 trips to sell blood plasma @ $20 a shot.
I was a poor college student and had to walk each round trip of about 5 miles.

[lepetitfromage]

I like the concept of the wedding ring more than the engagement ring purely because both parties wear them. But- there is a tiny part of me that loves the tradition of the engagement- asking the parents, picking out and giving the ring, etc.

I liked to think that engagement rings are a symbol of commitment on both parts though- my commitment to wear it as a promise of marriage and his commitment of saving up enough money and picking out something that he knew I would want to wear every day. He put SO much effort into picking a good one for me.


My grandmother offered us the diamond from her engagement ring to my grandfather, so that was incredibly special to me. The actual ring itself would never have fit me because my grandma has always had teensy hands and I have BIG hands for a lady (all the better for artmaking hahaha). Also- Nick took into consideration a lot of important things when getting the setting/band for the ring too- it was classic but funky at the same time and he had them use a material that would stand up to wear and tear since I use my hands a lot. He actually couldn't find anything that was "me" enough, so he had something custom designed.


(also.....he asked my dad's permission. I've always been a daddy's girl so I was thrilled to hear that. The next time we were at my parents' house, my dad joked that his response was "Are you sure??")

[Barmymoo]

I'm pretty sure that if someone asked my dad's permission to marry me, my dad would say "why are you asking ME?".

It's not universal that both parties wear wedding rings. In fact I think that's a fairly recent development, but I could be wrong. Plenty of men still don't.

[Loki]

A necessary condition for asking the parents is that the future bride is on good terms with them.
I'd in fact prefer to not ask them (for why would I do that?) but would relent if my subject of desire so desired.

On wedding rings/collars: I'd probably wear them as a reminder of the person's feelings towards me.

On diamonds: Don't like them visually. I think they are too... cold to the eye.

[Barmymoo]

Thinking about it a little more, I wouldn't object as strongly if the situation were more that my partner sat down with one or other or all four (probably separately...) of my parents and asked them if they thought it would be a good idea for the two of us to get married. Since I intend to do precisely that myself if marriage appears on the horizon at any point, I wouldn't find it archaic. Of course the parental units wouldn't have the final say, but I'd be guided by their views as they know me very well and between them have quite a range of different priorities, ideas and values.

[Carl-E]

I asked.  It was a silly question, though - I'd been living with her for two years already, and was a part of the family by that time.  My father in law, head of the English department at my school at the time, appreciated the formality, though. 

My wife's diamond was her gram's, too. 

My wedding ring went on about 40 lbs ago.  It isn't coming off without a saw... even though there have been times I wish I could get it off. 


And Barmy, I imagine that would work well, especially if one or more of them expressed a warning...

[Barmymoo]

The reason I'm adamant about the decision-by-council-majority idea is that my mum's parents strongly advised her against marrying my dad and her mum actually thought she should marry the man who is now my stepdad, and my dad's parents never even met my mum til after the wedding. And look how well that turned out...

[GarandMarine]

Yeah. I'll pass on my parents making my decisions for me. My life is not subject to majority vote. Even if it's the wrong decision it's my decision to make.

[Patrick]

I also dislike that whole part of "traditional" weddings where someone gives the bride away, for the same reasons.

The only reason I might ask for my bride to be given away is because whoever is giving her away is speaking for her family at that moment, and I just want to know her family approves of me.

[pwhodges]

It's not universal that both parties wear wedding rings. In fact I think that's a fairly recent development, but I could be wrong. Plenty of men still don't.

When I married in 1969 it was possibly a minority choice to have two rings, but it was not considered outlandish or even unusual as I recall.

[Loki]

I just want to know her family approves of me.

Why?

-------
Was at a party tonight. It was about equal parts good and... let's say... overwhelming, but mostly just interesting. I kinda feel bad about leaving early.

[Akima]

It's a down payment... in a sense, more a value hedge against a woman's chastity.

Only the woman's?

I just want to know her family approves of me.

As you should! My ancestors are nodding vigorously in approval.   More seriously, marriage inescapably involves two families, and it is very desirable for there to be approval on both sides.

I prefer rubies. Red is the colour of Chinese marriage.

[Is it cold in here?]

My wife won't have mined diamonds but is OK with diamonds created by humans with all our skill and knowledge. I proposed to her at the restaurant which is the local traditional place for engagements.

[calenlass]

It's a down payment... in a sense, more a value hedge against a woman's chastity.

Only the woman's?

Yes. Rings as a wedding tradition date back to Roman times, when it was placed on the woman's forefinger and the whole ceremony was a representation of the transfer of goods: bride-price to the father, daughter and dowry to the husband. Women were expected to be completely chaste and were put to death if found otherwise, which is one of the reasons they were married off so young, while men could shag the slaves or the hookers whenever they wanted. This tradition carried on quite strongly for centuries, including but not limited to: italian medieval culture, when young ladies were never unchaperoned and prostitutes were sanctioned as sort of the "ballast" of sinfulness in a catholic society. Also see: every king of France and England from basically ever who had a handful of mistresses who lived with them and then their wives were expected to a) put up with the women and b) not take lovers of their own because they'd be executed for treason. Also remember how queens weren't actually supposed to do anything political, just wear pretty dresses and raise kids? Catherine de Medici and Catherine Parr were both very unusual for being capable regents.

I would say that the tradition of rings as we know it now is a very European one, so yeah, it has its basis in all of that.

I just want to know her family approves of me.

Wouldn't you hopefully know that beforehand?

Call me a sucker if you must, but I like the traditional Victorian ways of asking the Parent's permission (even if it is only a formality) and 'taking an arrow to the knee' of  a proposal.  Any young man who comes for my daughter better have his shit IN LINE.

But your daughter is a person with free will, able to make her own decisions and who (hopefully, depending on how you raised her) is capable and smart and can be trusted to make a choice that she believes to be in her best interest, surely. She's not a possession, right?

[Patrick]

I just want to know her family approves of me.

Why?

why wouldn't I want their approval? my girlfriend's very close to her family. the girls I've dated who I liked the most have always been close with their families. absolutely I want us to like each other!

Wouldn't you hopefully know that beforehand?

my mom has lied about liking a few girls I've dated just because she didn't want to upset me.

[calenlass]

That is kind of shitty. However, I think it would be reasonable to assume that she would carry on that facade through your wedding, for the exact same reasons.

My mom doesn't disapprove of my boyfrang, but she isn't exactly happy with the fact that he doesn't want to do any family things with me. I have tried explaining the "broken home" thing, but apparently empathizing with someone's unaddressed psychological issues is less important than feeling slighted because you invited them for dinner and they weren't interested. She has told me several times that perhaps I should think really hard about what I want out of life and to really look at whether this relationship will get me there, or if we will just end up fighting and unhappy. (Apparently, she has foreseen it, I guess.)

Enh, self-righteousness. What can you do.

[Patrick]

Oh god. I am so glad you mentioned the poor family life factor. My own family isn't the tightest-knit. I don't actually know what being a good father means just because I don't really have one. And my mom lives too far away for any kind of meaningful communication, and she's seen my struggles with depression at their lowest point, and because of how I reacted to her reaching out to me, I don't let her get too close for fear I'll hurt her heart again.

I'm not close to my family, and so I don't care what they think of Camille or the fact that we're dating. But Camille's family is important to her. I have no idea what that means, but I know that their approval means they're not an obstacle in the way of us staying close. I just hate that I don't know what it means because it's something I can't fully understand about how she grew up.

I don't know what I'm really trying to say here, I should probably just calm down.

[calenlass]

Speaking from her side of the equation, because my family is important to me, basically what is means is this:

Family is the group of people who will love you no matter how many times you disagree or fight, whether they approve of your decisions or not, and who always want the best for you even if it's not what they'd want for themselves. Family is always happy you stopped by, even if they can't admit it because they're still mad at you. Some people are lucky enough that they are born into a group of people like that; others are born into a group of people who simply share genetic traits. You can't do much about your relatives, because on that score you didn't get much of a choice in the first place, but everyone builds their own family. Yours may consist more of your friends, bandmates, roommates, or old coworkers, but sometimes you luck out because they were already your sibling or your cousin or your granddad and you didn't have to look as hard for them. Age doesn't matter for family, and neither does sex.

Your family is like the highest tier of your monkey sphere, the group of people you prioritize the highest. For my boyfriend, that means giving his half-brother his paycheck when the latter lost his job, even though we are almost as broke and didn't have any money at all for the rest of that month and had to borrow from our parents just to eat. For me, it means going to like 5 holiday get-togethers a year where my cousins and aunts and uncles and grandparents and I eat a shitload of homemade food made from old recipes, tag-team handing out 5,000 pieces of halloween candy, exchange gag gifts, drink a lot of beer, and play charades and Blokus and stuff.

It also means doing stupid shit like going to your best friend's son's first birthday party, because you know the kid isn't going to remember anything and it's just going to be cake frosting everywhere after a minute, but they want you to be there, and so you go. It means learning to smile and grit your teeth while your significant other rambles on and on and on literally for hours about shit you care absolutely nothing about, because it's important to them and you just want them to be happy because they enjoy that thing. They are the people you worry about letting down (I mean for real, not the stupid shit you worry about with anxiety problems), and the people you want to keep happy, and the people you grieve with when they are sad.

You also already knew what it means. Most people do, they just haven't heard it phrased in the right words. "Family" might have come to have a very twisted meaning in your mind because of what life has thrown at you, and that's ok, as long as the underlying concept is still there. That thing about keeping your mom at arm's length? It may not be the healthiest way to go about caring about her feelings, but you do care. If she wasn't part of your family, you wouldn't make such an effort.

Camille is part of your family, too, and because this is important to her, you cared enough to ask, so keep that in mind. You're not at such a loss as you think.

[calenlass]

Also, here is how to be a good dad:

1. Never forget that everything you do will impact your kid(s), even things that should be just between you and your spouse.
2. ? ? ?
3. ? ? ? ?
4. ? ? ? ? ?
5. Ice Cream
6. Success!

[snalin]

A good dad is one that allows his kid to sit on his lap while playing Diablo 2, and click the potion buttons.

[GarandMarine]

Like this Snalin?

[snalin]

Pretty much. Diablo 2 is a much better game, otherwise the same.

[Patrick]

Katie I honestly have no idea how I survived without you around here for so long. Thanks.

[Loki]

Katie = calenlass?

[Patrick]

oh woops, I know in the reintroduction thread she didn't give a name but I forgot. sorry I outed you without permission. old habits die hard.

[calenlass]

oh god, people know, shit shit shit

[Patrick]

why are there white stains on Mr. Bill's shirt.

[lepetitfromage]

I think that's the best definition I've seen of "Family". Thanks for posting that

[Barmymoo]

Yeah. I'll pass on my parents making my decisions for me. My life is not subject to majority vote. Even if it's the wrong decision it's my decision to make.

I knew after I'd posted that I'd phrased it badly - less majority vote and more respected input. But if I think their advice is based on incomplete or inaccurate evidence, or just on holding different values to me (for instance I'm 99% certain that I'd get a lot of advice against a relationship with any woman regardless of her character) then I'd disregard it.

[Thrillho]

New housemate has weed. Never leaving.

[Welu]

College is kicking my ass right now and I'm going back to work this week. Oh yeah, I've been off work since I posted about hurting my heel bone weeks ago because I couldn't stand for more than ten minutes at a time for a while. I was able to be on my feet for about twelve hours yesterday in these awesome new shoes and my weak ankle, which is the same foot that was injured, is feeling achey today. I think once I do a shift at work I'll be grand, just have a big mental block to get over about it.

[Jimmy the Squid]

Earlier this year I applied for a number of universities for Master of Clinical Psychology programs. I actually applied for 14 universities along the eastern side of the country (fuck off I am not going to Western Australia). So far I've had 6 rejection letters which wasn't unexpected but is still obviously very disheartening.

This morning I got an email from Central Queensland University. I have been offered an interview (to take place next week via skype) for a place in the program. I am tentatively excited and I interview well so I reckon I have a really good chance of getting in. The downside is that Central Queensland University is in Rockhampton, QLD which is of course in the middle of fucking nowhere. But I'm prepared for that or I wouldn't have applied. I hope that (if I get in) I can get a job teaching first year psych classes because the pay for that gig is insane (around $75 an hour) so I'd be able to cover my rent and living expenses with like, 5 to 10 hours a week. I'm still hoping I get an interview for something in Sydney but I'll take what I can get. Even if it means I have to live in the arse end of nowhere surrounded by racists and dickheads for two years (Queensland is known for its racists and dickheads).

[Barmymoo]

Good luck! I'm glad that the interview letters have started to arrive. Hopefully this one will just be the warm-up practice run for all the other interviews that you get later.

[ev4n]

Fwiw, 18 years into marriage, aside from parents and sibs I'm much closer to my wife's extended family than my own.  Some of that is based on not being close to my extended family growing up, but some of that is down to how welcoming and awesome my inlaws are.  I definitely consider them family now.

Hopefullyl, this factoid provides a bit of encouragment to Patrick, and possibly others!

[Aimless]

In a weird way, coming back to the stroke ward always feels like coming home. The last month has been very rewarding but also very trying and things just feel easier with stroke, easier and more positive, well-structured, with a lot of teamwork and a really nice rehab-oriented approach. I like it all, and tbh I'm already missing the mysteries of general neurology and obnoxiously butting my head into puzzling cases elsewhere, but it's nice to be able to relax with things that are straightforward enough to leave time for getting to know your patients even though it means spending less time with the rest of the clinic because we're a Ward Apart.

I've been reminded of how important it is to put work life on Idle and have a fun busy weekend with the missus. This weekend we celebrated my wife's sister-in-law's 30th birthday, saw a fun spex and then just stuffed myself with OBSCENE amounts of Bosnian food and good wine in the company of old friends and new acquaintances. It was fun as hell and it's incredible how much longer and more enjoyable a short weekend feels when you put it to better use than you do by sitting on your ass at home I like meeting and getting to know new nice people, something that's become a little harder to do now that we're no longer students, and this weekend's had a lot to offer in that respect I was like <3 <3 <3



This ring business was a little tricky to sort out, for us. We both had identical engagement rings with different engravings, but only my wife has a second, a wedding ring with diamonds. I only ever get to wear my engagement ring on a chain around my neck which it shares with a buncha little mementoes so I was relieved to learn that Swedish tradition still allows for the man to only have one ring. Whew.

[Patrick]

Fwiw, 18 years into marriage, aside from parents and sibs I'm much closer to my wife's extended family than my own.  Some of that is based on not being close to my extended family growing up, but some of that is down to how welcoming and awesome my inlaws are.  I definitely consider them family now.

Hopefullyl, this factoid provides a bit of encouragment to Patrick, and possibly others!

Well, after having met 2 generations' worth of Camille's bloodline, I am significantly less worried about whether or not they like me! Her parents invited me back for Christmas despite the fact that she won't be home yet by then. Unfortunately I've got my own plans, but the invitation speaks volumes. I've asked for her parents' address so I can at least send them a thank you note for our early Thanksgiving, and probably a Christmas greeting card when the time comes. I like them, and they like me, and I'm as pleased as a pig in shit! I look forward to the future.

[Jimmy the Squid]

I hate my partners family. They're a bunch of racist, homophobic, right wing idiots. Their dogs are nice though.

[Welu]

My partner's immediate family are very friendly and he gets along well with my family. We have all got together a couple times and all get along really well, his family had Boxing Day dinner with us last year.

[calenlass]

Her parents invited me back for Christmas despite the fact that she won't be home yet by then. Unfortunately I've got my own plans, but the invitation speaks volumes.

Mine doesn't like it when my family invites him to stuff (they have invited him to T-day, Christmas, and 2 or 3 other things during the year now 2 years in a row) because he feels guilty and then gets all angrily obstinate about his conviction that families suck. It's a work in progress.

[Patrick]

I hate my partners family. They're a bunch of racist, homophobic, right wing idiots. Their dogs are nice though.

There's only one dog in the picture in Camel's family, and he's an old black labrador named Cosmo and he is super sweet. He decided he liked me so much that after about an hour of hanging out, as soon as I sat on the couch with Camille, he curled up on top of my feet and kept me warm. I love that dog.

[Carl-E]

I heard a good definition of family the other day on, of all things, a radio cooking show. 

"There are places in the world where you define family by the people you eat with, and blood relation has nothing to do with it."


My house is one such place.  If you're eating at my table, you're part of my family. 

[Jimmy the Squid]

I will often use the word family to refer to my relatives but when I think of family I think of my friends. I honestly don't see why I should feel any allegiance to people whom I happen to share some genetic material with over people who actively want me in their lives and whom I want in mine.

The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb.

[Loki]

So I downloaded Tapatalk and am still getting used to it.

Also I forgot my phone charger in the office so now I have my laptop running, plugged in an USB extension cable and the USB charger. And I am lying in bed. I want to try sleeping. Wonder if that will work with laptop on.

[Patrick]

My house is one such place.  If you're eating at my table, you're part of my family. 

oh man. I can't tell you how many times my singer's parents have fed me. I guess they like me a lot.

[GarandMarine]

And now, your weekend safety brief.

Bring it in. Take a knee. Meach, the Side-Straddle Hop – go. We are right now staring down the barrel of a four-day weekend. Most of you are going to who the hell cares where, to spend the holiday with people who don't hate you. While you are gone, surrounded by soft, squishy civilians who wouldn't know a bayonet from a baby seal, you may be tempted to soften a little, to entertain the idea that your opinions have value, that you can cram all the pie in creation down your face hole. Go ahead. Join your squishy friends and family in being useless boils on the backside of this great nation. Bring your wobbly, fat ass and opinions right back here for some quality time. I will run you 'til you've puked up every last deviled egg and marshmallow, 'til your every breath takes life and death focus, leaving your new-found opinions a hazy memory of some other existence. Meach, I can see you, Shitknuckle. Don't cheat your body. Go, enjoy your Thanksgiving. Those of you who failed to submit a pass request form will be staying within growling distance of Yours Truly. I intend to spend this holiday locating good places to dig deep holes in the back forty. I suspect I'll be able to accommodate at least five sorry pieces of shit out there. Make sure you aren't one of them. If I have to pick you up from the local lockup, I'll give you a tour of the new holes-to-be on the way back. I'll even show you my favorite shovel. Also, it's getting cold, and the roads are getting icy. Plan accordingly. If you die of hypothermia this weekend, I'll make sure your hometown newspaper hears that you died of auto-erotic asphyxiation while jerking off to The View. While you are out not getting arrested, not building bonfires on the parade field, and not getting married, I want you to remember the Four Ds: 1. Don't do dudes' wives. 2. Don't do drugs. 3. Don't drink and drive. 4. Don't beat your wife. Meach, recover. Drink water. Now, get the hell out of my AO!

[Welu]

I really want to learn an instrument or how to sing after spending a weekend with musicians.

[GarandMarine]

I wish I could... do either of those really. I have the musical ability of... nothing. Literally every other thing in existence is better at music then I am.

[Thrillho]

I really want to learn an instrument or how to sing after spending a weekend with musicians.

It is a damn near universal icebreaker.

[Patrick]

GM, if you ever make it to the general vicinity of San Francisco, I got you on some guitar basics. It is so much easier than it sounds, and literally the hardest part about it is learning how stumming complex rhythms works.

[Jimmy the Squid]

So I'm becoming more resigned to the possibility of living in a small mountain town in the middle of no where. I figure I'll just treat it like being in prison. Do my work, spend all my free time at the gym, kill someone on my first day so everyone knows not to fuck with me. It'll be fine.