Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Jeva]

Or rather, making it more politically correct. So I was doing another archive trawl, as many of us do from time to time, and noticed that comic 10 http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=10 had been changed, replacing the word rape with hump. I can see why this might be done, rape is after all a very risky topic to make jokes about, but changing it years after it was posted? I mean, the original went up in 2003 and (from looking at the snapshots on the waybackmachine) the change only happened at the end of 2012/beginning of 2013.
Not really sure where I was going with this, just wondering why bother changing it after all this time, and whether or not anyone else had noticed?

[Asterus]

I think this was discussed at some point, maybe in an unrelated topic. Can't be bothered to find it now, I have an exam in 50 mins.

Never mind, found it.

[Jeva]

I did a quick search on here to see if it had been previously discussed and came up with nothing, but if this is old news then so be it. Nevermind.
EDIT: Thanks, I wouldn't have thought to check the WCDTs.

[pwhodges]

Compared with some forums, this one deliberately lets its threads in some areas get quite unstructured; this way it's more like friendly conversations, but it does mean that often stuff is not where you'd expect.

[Asterus]

Well, I only remember it because we went from talking about whether Steve had his junk out to whether old Faye really would have been offended at a casual rape joke.

[bhtooefr]

Might not be a bad idea to split that discussion out into its own thread, and then merge this one into that thread, just so that it's a convenient thread for those that find that comic, and want to search for a thread about it...

[Valdís]

Censorship is only when inflicted upon you, which this wasn't. This was just Jeph exercising good judgment for something inappropriate he'd thrown in there a decade ago. If he's not comfortable with something being in his comic then that's entirely his decision.

Also my feelings are unchanged:

The old version is really uncomfortable. There's a vast difference between a statement that shy, submissive people want to be raped and that they'd fantasize about being with a dominant partner. Those two are not close experiences at all.

[tassaron]

I think both versions are about equally offensive, really. I'd rather he just delete that comic entirely.

[Sidhekin]

The concept of self-censorship will not be censored, *censored*!

[bhtooefr]

I think both versions are about equally offensive, really. I'd rather he just delete that comic entirely.

Ehhhhh no.

See, rape means that there was no consent. So, the original version implied that every shy, submissive boy on the planet wants to have NON-CONSENSUAL intercourse. Which is horrendously offensive, as well as kinda a logic failure.

Humping allows for consent. The edited version implies that every shy, submissive boy on the planet wants to have an aggressive partner who takes the initiative and goes right to sex. Wrong, but at least it isn't excluding consent. Granted, if he isn't given the opportunity to consent, it's still rape, but rape is no longer a mandatory part of this.

[Is it cold in here?]

The timing is even harder to explain given that Jeph has said he doesn't do archive trawls.

[marsman57]

The timing is even harder to explain given that Jeph has said he doesn't do archive trawls.

Maybe that implies that someone DID complain to him.

Anyway, I think those who are offended have forgotten 2003 and are not seeing the comments in the cultural language of the day. My girlfriend back then, and all her friends, always talked about "raping" their crushes from movie stars to anime characters. The word was just at the time used by a subculture of females to casually to describe such things.

The idea behind the comic was never to suggest that Sara legitimately wanted to force Marten into a situation he did not want, but instead indicated her desire to eschew normal romantic courtship and instead make a bold move to indicate her crush.

At least imho.

[bhtooefr]

The timing is roughly right when The Oatmeal made a joke about "raping the F5 key" in a comic, and half of Twitter was flaming him to death.

My guess is, someone did see it and e-mail or tweet at Jeph.

[Near Lurker]

I think it's nice he changed it - the joke raised my eyebrow a bit back when I first read it (those 90-some strips seemed so many then...), and I wasn't nearly as sensitive about such things then... but what's with the artifacts?

[pwhodges]

I imagine he just did it in a hurry to meet the need, and wasn't worried about quality in such an old strip.

[ChaoSera]

Also, as someone who didn't know the old version, I can say that the editing is only noticeable if you actually looking for it. If you're just reading the comic you won't see it, at least I didn't.

[Bluesummers]

I imagine he just did it in a hurry to meet the need, and wasn't worried about quality in such an old strip.

I agree.

Plus, as much as well all want to take a bit of ownership in QC, it is Jeph's brainchild, and he can do as he sees fit.

[Is it cold in here?]

Hence my hope that he made the change because he saw fit to do so, and not because he was afraid of criticism.

[pwhodges]

Being afraid of criticism, and pre-empting criticism when circumstances change, are rather different things though.

[Is it cold in here?]

I'm only one data point, but more than one man in my close family is a rape survivor, and I was still fine with the original strip, taking it as clearly hyperbole.

[Welu]

I wondered if he might have found the joke again when putting together the books?

[bhtooefr]

Although pwhodges said that the joke made it into the books...

[Valdís]

I'm only one data point, but more than one man in my close family is a rape survivor, and I was still fine with the original strip, taking it as clearly hyperbole.

..I don't even know what this post is, IICIH, nor why you'd expect someone else's experience to make your own an indicator. Did they react just fine to it?

Not that their reaction would be universal either way. I find the dismissive attitude associated with the way it used to read highly problematic.

[Is it cold in here?]

Saying I'm "only one data point" means that I don't expect my opinion of the comic to be shared by others.

[Valdís]

Then why even bring them up in that manner if not to lend gravitas to your own feelings? Am I missing something? It just seems like "That wasn't disturbing. I should know, I know an X"?

[pwhodges]

Because in the absence of a formal survey and real statistics, anecdotal evidence is all we have - so an anecdote he provided.

[Is it cold in here?]

make your own an indicator.

Why would you accuse me of saying my attitude was an "indicator" when I had said the exact opposite in the post immediately before yours?

[Valdís]

Sorry, misunderstood I guess.

I think the way I read it was as an indicator for them or something. I really don't like when family think they can just speak on behalf of a person.

[Is it cold in here?]

Ahh. Understood.

The relevance is that I have to see the results (continuing anxiety attacks for one of them, alcoholism for the other) and am sad and angry myself at injury to my family.

If anything, that makes me more motivated to distinguish between Faye and Sara's chatter about imaginary zero-inhibitions sex on the one hand and actual sexual violence on the other hand. Sara was lustful, not cruel.

[mewmew34]

I personally don't understand why it was changed or why people let jokes like that get to them.  Rape is a horrible thing, no doubt.  But so is murder and people make jokes about murder and death all the time.  They may be tasteless, but they're still just jokes and do not condone the action they make fun of.  If somebody decides to go out and rape somebody because a girl in an internet comic strip made a casual mention of it, there is something seriously wrong with the person, not the creator of the comic strip, for thinking a joke makes the action OK.

[Is it cold in here?]

I'd been thinking about the analogy with murder jokes, of which QC has had many. The emotional impact is different because murder isn't being trivialized or endorsed by large sections of society. You can report a murder without having your entire town turn against you. Murders routinely get prosecuted. Guess how much good my relatives got out of the legal system.

There are jokes that trivialize sexual violence, they poison the well of society, and I don't think this strip was one of them.

[Near Lurker]

It's estimated one in fifteen American men 18-24 has committed rape, so at any given time, there's far, far more likely to be a rapist in your audience than a murderer.

This is important because of what each tells themself: in one case, "it wasn't really rape," in the other, "s/he needed killing."  Being corruptions of the two most common legitimate (affirmative) defenses - consent and justification, respectively - these are essentially the same defense.  Both of them are reinforced by trivializing the matter in the form of jokes - nonconsenting victims who aren't really violated because they're only figures of fun, and unjustified homicides that aren't murder because of a patently absurd justification.  In both cases, most of the audience recognize the absurdity of seeking to so minimize a real crime, but the way the human mind works, those who are already so inclined might seek to minimize the guilt of their inclination (or even the actual fact), and there the symmetry breaks down.  Because while the uncaught murderer who might be reading your strip is too rare to be worth worrying about, and knows he has no friends, the sizable minority that is the rapists in your audience might see a hand reaching out, to assuage their fears, to steel them to offend again, or worse, for the first time.

[Valdís]

I personally don't understand why it was changed

Because Jeph presumably didn't want to have his writing include that. What with being a great guy and all.

or why people let jokes like that get to them.

Right. Because it's their fault it'd be a sensitive issue. After all, it works just like depression: "Have you tried not letting things be triggering?".

Rape is a horrible thing, no doubt.  But so is murder and people make jokes about murder and death all the time.  They may be tasteless, but they're still just jokes and do not condone the action they make fun of.

How is it making fun of the action at all? There's not a word in there saying that. It literally just trivialized the trauma of shy, submissive people. That was the "joke".

If somebody decides to go out and rape somebody because a girl in an internet comic strip made a casual mention of it, there is something seriously wrong with the person, not the creator of the comic strip, for thinking a joke makes the action OK.

No one was saying anything about a direct causation like that, so why are you? (Edit: Well, at the time of your post. Near kind of just did in response to it.)

Not that it isn't troubling as an attitude anyway. Especially given how dismissive people can be to the victims already. Even more so if the perpetrator was female and the victim male.

[Welu]

In sort of the same tone as Near Lurker's post, you're much more likely to encounter a rape or sexual assault victim than a person who has been murdered.

I'm not sure I entirely gel with that statement

(click to show/hide)

(in that it sort of implies it's okay to make the joke as long as no one can complain about it)

but it is true.

[Is it cold in here?]

If Sara had been a sexual predator planning to hurt Marten, The Pugnacious Peach would have taken her apart to the quark level, stabbed the quarks, and pooped in their wounds.

[Neko_Ali]

I would argue the point that the fact that a rape survivor does survive is a part of the difference. It's always true that people who know those who have been raped or murdered and it affects them. But if a person is a victim of murder, then they don't have to worry about it anymore. On the other hand, a person who survived rape, sometimes multiple rapes or ongoing molestation that can last for years.. it is a much more personal and affecting issue for them. The worst part of it though is the fact that people play the victim blaming game. So this person who has already suffered through one of the most horrible things someone can go though has to keep hearing how it was somehow their fault, that they are bad people, that 'some girls just rape so easily' and all that sort of thing.

The problem is how society in general views rape. It's not just that people suffer it, it's is that there is this whole idea that 'it's not that bad', or people deserve it, or people seek it out.. The whole rape culture is the problem, and the joke in that comic was part of the problem. The sort of attitudes at play in it are a bigger problem than offending someone who has suffered rape or knows someone who had.

A joke like that may be just one tiny drip in the ocean.... but one drip after another after another after another wears down a mountain over time...

[mustang6172]

As long as we're making this acceptable to the modern public, how about adding a guitar solo to Beethoven's 9th Symphony?  Right between the 3rd and 4th movements!

[Valdís]

Yes, clearly that is a terrible tragedy. We should keep perspective as to what really matters in life: make-believe guns.

Why, next they'll be telling us not to trivialize rape if we let this go on. Truly this is the face of oppression.


(Also no, that isn't unacceptable either, that's just your nostalgia talking. Just watch the older version if you don't like it. I also wasn't aware you're not allowed to remix music. Man, a lot of people are in trouble then!)

[mustang6172]

I didn't realize a mention of hypothetical rape in a cartoon (literally make-believe within make-believe) was more important than guns within a single level of make-believe.

[DSL]

Jeph became uncomfortable with that particular joke being in there, he had the power to change it, and so he did. Works for me.

[Is it cold in here?]

Does 1524 offend people?

[Valdís]

I didn't realize a mention of hypothetical rape in a cartoon (literally make-believe within make-believe) was more important than guns within a single level of make-believe.

Well, you'd be wrong. It has fuck-all to do with some "Inception" nonsense (and you know that). It's about trivializing rape versus you being upset about walkie-talkies.

Does 1524 offend people?

I don't see why it would. It isn't talking about an actual act of it and even with that Dora outright says it's disturbing and Marten facepalms. It was the attitude of real things that was so bothersome in 10, not the mere mention of the word in any context.

[Sidhekin]

So, the acts Pintsize draws on paper are not "actual" enough, while the act that Sara hypothesizes in conversion somehow is?

See, that kind of attitude upsets and offends me far more than either Sara or Pintsize's transgressions.

[Valdís]

Because porn and roleplay are significantly damn different from talking about the situations of actual rape-survivors. I don't see what's complicated about that.

I don't like the first two things either, but they aren't necessarily the same. Someone saying "this group of people want to be raped / actually enjoys being raped" is a lot worse than saying "I drew crass pictures of schoolgirls molesting tentacle-monsters". Especially considering people are against it right there. Number 10 would read a lot differently if Sara had said more or less both of the things and Faye was disturbed or what-have-you. It'd just be a (terrible) reflection of Sara, not the comic.

Also last I checked Pintsize is neither a schoolgirl nor a tentacle-monster.  thank goodness

[Bluesummers]

Because porn and roleplay are significantly damn different from talking about the situations of actual rape-survivors.

Indeed. "Tentacle-rape" is an often-fantasized act, but the key word is fantazised (meaning it doesn't happen in real life
(thanks to a Geneva Convention ban on genetically engineered tentacle monsters)).

As Valdís points out, Actual rape is different, and can be a touchy subject.

That being said, I know there are a BUTTLOAD of touchy subjects in this world, many of them covered by this comic. I don't intend to extrapolate upon Jeph's decisions, but merely to end on the point that it was an executive decision he made, and what's done is done.

[mustang6172]

Didn't Momo's old chassis have a tentacle deployment system?  Or was that eels?

So Valdís, how long did it take you to delete all the n-words from Huck Finn?

[Masterpiece]

eels.

[Welu]

That was an alternate strip on Jeph's Tumblr. http://jephjacques.com/post/455925283/alternate-version-of-qc-1624-i-think-this-one-is

Edit: Just remembered Momo did say she could during one of her first appearances, actually.

Edit 2: She says it in her first appearance.

[Valdís]

So Valdís, how long did it take you to delete all the n-words from Huck Finn?

It's kind of ironic that you would bleep the word in that statement, but.. See:

It was the attitude of real things that was so bothersome in 10, not the mere mention of the word in any context.

It isn't the word that's the problem, it's the attitude. Which is literally the case in Huck Finn, where it's plenty anti-Racist despite just the words. Are you just trolling me or something, Mustang? Because if so that's absurdly inappropriate.

As for the comic's language.. It and maybe a few other non-derogatory words do make me uncomfortable, but that's an issue for me to deal with. Any word that gained mainstream use would end up the same emotionally. That doesn't make the attitude itself okay at all.

Also if it was Mark Twain releasing a new edition where he'd re-written it then that's entirely his prerogative.

Edit 2: She says it in her first appearance.

"She just moved in down the block"

Huh, so Marigold is on the same street? Actually didn't know that or I forgot it.

[Loki]

I find myself confused about the topic of this thread. Is it about

* whether Jeph really changed the strip (he did)
* what triggered the change (we will probably never know)
* whether he had the moral obligation to change it or
* whether he had the moral obligation to leave it like it was?