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[Pilchard123]

I would so love for those to be the actual ad campaign.

[satsugaikaze]

Ah, doyee...should've thought of that, since it sounds like a console version of Steam.

Basically this, really!
That's what I get from it the more I read up on this new Xbox. But then again, it's Microsoft so it's clearly the devil.
I'm interested to see what Microsoft are going to do with this upcoming E3. Sony seemed to have booked out 2/3rds of the area, probably to strongarm the other 2 out of sight for their big PS4 reveal.

It would take a colossal fuck-up for Sony not to dominate E3, simply by virtue of owning the majority of the floorspace - whether or not the console details released are actually good.

Also, I actually like the new controller. I've never had consumer loyalty or preference for any game console (and I like the Dualshock and 360 controller pretty much equally), and this new iteration basically looks like the 360 controller except without a shit d-pad. They seem to have gone for Sony's approach to controllers - why fix what isn't broke, right?

[Masterpiece]

The Xbox 360 controller was pretty amazing to hold anyway. I remember the first time I saw it and thought "wow this looks like crap" but after holding it I was very quickly convinced otherwise. I like that it was so much bigger than the Dualshock controllers which I had been using up to that point. And the shoulder buttons were easier to push repeatedly imho.

[LTK]

Basically this, really!
That's what I get from it the more I read up on this new Xbox. But then again, it's Microsoft so it's clearly the devil.

You know, it would be more of an apt comparison if it weren't for the fact that Steam is not essential to PC gaming. If Steam goes bust and shuts down all their servers I can still play the games I have installed on my hard drive even though I can't download the ones I didn't have installed. But if the XBone's Live accounts stop being supported at some point in the future, you're left with a useless chunk of plastic and sillicon... right?

I'm interested to see what Microsoft are going to do with this upcoming E3. Sony seemed to have booked out 2/3rds of the area, probably to strongarm the other 2 out of sight for their big PS4 reveal.

Don't you mean 'other one'?

[satsugaikaze]

I think it the efficiency of a controller really boils down to the way the games use the layout. My older brother (who is a complete klutz when it comes to console gaming, being mostly PC-centric) picked up on the Dualshock a little faster, probably because the symmetry of the controller has a sort of simplicity that makes it easier to learn. Having the d-pad closer to the thumb probably lends itself to less-stressful menu navigation (especially for menu-heavy games like RPGs).

The bumper buttons on the Dualshock are way inferior to the 360 controller's shoulder and trigger buttons imo, which have much more tangible pull to them past the usual *click*. The 360 controller's c-stick placement possibly puts it in better stead overall with the shooter genre.

You know, it would be more of an apt comparison if it weren't for the fact that Steam is not essential to PC gaming. If Steam goes bust and shuts down all their servers I can still play the games I have installed on my hard drive even though I can't download the ones I didn't have installed. But if the XBone's Live accounts stop being supported at some point in the future, you're left with a useless chunk of plastic and sillicon... right?

But really, isn't it?
The majority of PC games I've ordered lately - to be fair, mostly Eidos/Square Enix games like Deus Ex, Sleeping Dogs and Tomb Raider - have made Steam a mandatory component in order to even install the game, let alone play it. I will concede that there are little bullshit things like the check-into-the-servers-once-a-day that differentiate Xbox One's system from that of Steam, but fundamentally it's the same - mandatory installation with registration of the game solely for individual use, locked to a single account.

I remember being absolutely livid when I picked up Modern Warfare 2 for the first time, and had to jump through bullshit hoops just to register a Steam account and install the game, because back then the Steam servers were absolute horseshit. Now Steamworks in a PC game is nothing to bat an eyelid at, because everyone just got used to it.

I'm interested to see what Microsoft are going to do with this upcoming E3. Sony seemed to have booked out 2/3rds of the area, probably to strongarm the other 2 out of sight for their big PS4 reveal.

Don't you mean 'other one'?

Well, completely missed that. Can't blame them, really.

[de_la_Nae]

I don't like where they moved the Dashboard button, but that's a small gripe. My feelings about the 360 D-pad are...mixed. Also I'm not sure what can be done, but I feel like the RB/LB shoulder buttons are a good idea, but have a tendency to start crapping out a little sooner than the rest of the controller, maybe that's just bad luck on my part though.

[Parkour Lewis]

The 360 controller, specifically the stick layout, is the first thing that I originally disliked about the 360, but later was a key factor in what sold me on the console once I'd held it in my hands.  I have big hands though.

[Blue Kitty]

[Lupercal]

One reason that I don't think the Steam argument really sticks is due to the fact that every time I hear about Steam, it's that they're having a HOLIDAY BANANZA SALE and you can get some awesome titles for very little money. Couple this with the fact that you can actually download said games to your harddrive, it doesn't seem like this is that XBone is doing, at all.

You say this reminds you of 1984 - I'm going to have to call Gene Hackman because this Kinect always on feature sounds very Enemy of the State to me.

[satsugaikaze]

My feelings about the 360 D-pad are...mixed.

I think plenty people who like the 360 controller would say that the d-pad is objectively horseshit. It's already a flawed design in concept imo - why would you control a set, 8-directional pad control using a single raised circle of hard plastic that is essentially a squashed, gimped C-stick?

I play most of my fighting games using directionals (since I find pressing down-forward much easier than drawing quarter circle forwards with a stick), so I bought the Hori 360 gamepad just because. It's good to see that the new controller has reverted back to a much more sensible cross pad - although it looks a tiny bit on the small side, I think.
If there's one d-pad I truly love in design, it's the Razer ones, since they're four distinct buttons. The only problem is that the buttons are pretty highly raised and require a lot of depression - and that Razer controllers for the 360 are notorious for falling apart at the seams pretty fast. Which is a shame because conceptually there's nothing about them I don't like.

One reason that I don't think the Steam argument really sticks is due to the fact that every time I hear about Steam, it's that they're having a HOLIDAY BANANZA SALE and you can get some awesome titles for very little money. Couple this with the fact that you can actually download said games to your harddrive, it doesn't seem like this is that XBone is doing, at all.

The Xbox One iirc implements direct download and install from disc, and once it's installed to the hard drive it doesn't require the disc to run. When you go to someone else's place and play on their Xbox, if you sign into your account you can download/install games you own to their hard drive.

I get the whole Steam Sales Are The Greatest Thing On Earth thing, but honestly we've heard so little about future implementation in the console at the moment, but everyone's so hell-bent on giving it shit before anything has been properly seen in E3. It's as if everyone thought that the games they announced on launch were the only ones that were going to be released, and that Microsoft would never do some sort of sale or discount evar in the future.

Also, Steam already bends over backwards when it comes to region pricing, so anything not priced during a sale tends to be a steaming sack of wallet-depleting shit.

[LTK]

TotalBiscuit brings some interesting views regarding used sales for video games to the table. Summary: Video games are not subject to wear and tear, and their publishers do not receive any additional revenue streams, making used game sales a no-win situation. This, to me, at least makes Microsoft's choice to impose additional forms of DRM on the console justifiable from a business standpoint, because unlike the traditional PC game publisher's reason of 'piracy!!!', it is substantially harder to circumvent if you control the hardware it runs on, and it is equally inconvenient for people who buy games new or buy them used.

It still leaves the question of what our consumer rights are and why the product you paid for isn't yours to sell, and what happens to your games once your internet connection dies or the authentication servers are shut down, but I think a method of selling used games that's mandated or authorised by the publisher would be preferable to retailers squeezing them for all they're worth.

[de_la_Nae]

Games are subject to wear and tear, albeit not always in the usual sense so I think I get why someone would say that.

[snalin]

I know used games sales is a pretty big deal in the US, but I've never seen any stores that would buy used games here, so for me it's a non-issue. Is used game trade usual wherever the rest of you live?

[Valdís]

Not really from what little I've seen in my city. There used to be a place that did trade-ins and stuff, but they weren't really a shop that focused on games, so more like a side thing for their selling computer parts and repairing things. The bigger places don't, though, to my knowledge.

[Parkour Lewis]

TotalBiscuit brings some interesting views regarding used sales for video games to the table. Summary: Video games are not subject to wear and tear, and their publishers do not receive any additional revenue streams, making used game sales a no-win situation. This, to me, at least makes Microsoft's choice to impose additional forms of DRM on the console justifiable from a business standpoint, because unlike the traditional PC game publisher's reason of 'piracy!!!', it is substantially harder to circumvent if you control the hardware it runs on, and it is equally inconvenient for people who buy games new or buy them used.

It still leaves the question of what our consumer rights are and why the product you paid for isn't yours to sell, and what happens to your games once your internet connection dies or the authentication servers are shut down, but I think a method of selling used games that's mandated or authorised by the publisher would be preferable to retailers squeezing them for all they're worth.

The guy's argument is BS.  Games are subject to "wear and tear" in the form of age.  A game released a year ago isn't worth near as much as a game released last week much less two or three years ago.  Almost the same example is true regarding his car comparison.  A car that's a year old may have depreciated, but not that much, and you can still get a decent price for it if you decide to sell it.  A car that's five or six years old has greatly depreciated in value, just like a game that's that same age goes for five or ten bucks even sold new from Wal-Mart.

The problem isn't with the sale of used games itself.  The problem is that the value of the game to the individual consumer can go way down after the game is finished, or even before finishing it if it's a bad game.  If the game was good enough that the player knew they might want to play it again later, they'd keep it around and not want to resell it for ten or twenty dollars a week after they just paid 50 bucks for it.  The point being:  if you want to stop people selling your games a week after they bought them, try making games that people don't want to get rid of immediately after they're done playing them.

[LTK]

That's actually what the multiplayer treadmill model of the cods and battlefields is designed to do: give the player a steady stream of rewards so they're more likely to keep playing the game and thus not turn it in for a bit of cash until much, much later. And I never hear anyone say how great it is that you have to spend hours in the multiplayer of a modern military shooter just to be able to use all the weapons, vehicles and other features, whereas classic multiplayer games gave you everything you need right from the get-go. (TB's saying that too)

But whether a game is worth the same after a few months is beside the point. If anything, this fact creates a bigger financial impact of used game sales. If a game costs $50 on release, and costs $20 six months later, the number of people who are going to bother with buying a second-hand copy likely decreases substantially, because the relative savings are simply much smaller. Compare that to the launch week, when buying a second-hand game is a much more attractive option given the $50 price tag. The outcome is that second-hand sales are biggest when the prices are highest, which means the publisher is missing out on a lot of sales.

But, like I said, I think the fact that the price of a game decreases with age is beside the point, because it affects first-hand and second-hand sales equally. A six-month old first-hand game has suffered the exact same 'wear and tear' as a six-month old second-hand game, even though one might still be in a shrink-wrapped box and the other in a paper CD sleeve. If that's the case, how can you differentiate between first-hand and second-hand games?

[ackblom12]

Microsoft Outlines Their System for Used Games Licenses and Family Sharing

[Blue Kitty]

[ackblom12]

Huh

Microsoft allegedly paying 3rd party publishers to not show PS4 games at E3

I'm skeptical of this considering it's only one source, but it would be a ridiculous new low if true.

[RedWolf4]

Dear god, if true, is EVERYTHING becoming a race to the bottom? I might just upgrade my PC at this rate.

[ThomasEll]

I know used games sales is a pretty big deal in the US, but I've never seen any stores that would buy used games here, so for me it's a non-issue. Is used game trade usual wherever the rest of you live?

Pretty much all dedicated game shops in the UK will also deal in trade-ins, with a few dealing in trade-ins almost exclusively.

[TheCollyWolly]

It looks shitty, and I won't be buying one. Well, that was easy.

[K1dmor]

 I Know that this isn't the "PS4 Thread", but they (Sony) just make a direct attack against it:
 - "The PS4 CAN play used Games" "We believe in this model.." "If you own it, you should be able to sell it to retail, borrow it, or do whatever you want with it".
 - "No, it Won't need to be connected to certificate it; at all, or once a day , etc".

 

 

[ackblom12]

That's just amazing.

So it looks like the PS4 is going to be having an awfully good console generation, what with being $399 ($100 cheaper than the Xbox One), sharing being easier, used games and no check in.

[satsugaikaze]

It actually looks to be 40-50 dollars more expensive in anywhere else worldwide apart from America.

I don't get it. Why do people keep treating Euro/British Pound prices as if they're equivalent to USD?

[K1dmor]

 Because they mostly cost the same? People in Spain for example pay the same prices in games/consoles just changing the $ to €.

 Btw, the prices of the announcement said:
 $399, €399 and £349; so they're not all equivalent.

 

[satsugaikaze]

They don't cost the same.

399 euro is about 530 USD.
349 BP is about 540 USD.

International gamers are paying another hundred and a bit dollars to get the same product. It's fucking absurd.

[K1dmor]

 I didn't mean the conversion is the same, i meant the number is  .

 About international gamer:
 In Australia for example, they're gonna pay almost $100 more for each console; The Xbox One, according to a representative from Microsoft Australia, will cost $599 Australian (Adding in GST, the conversion goes up to $580, but add an extra $20 on top of direct conversion); Plus the Shipping over seas costs, etc.

 Remember the US price doesn't include tax either.

[Kugai]

Microsoft has announced its next gaming console – the Xbox One – will go on sale in New Zealand in November.

It will cost $749, and include a 500GB hard drive, a Blu-ray player and built-in Wi-Fi, the new Kinect motion detection system, a single Xbox One wireless controller and a free 14-day trial of Xbox Live Gold.

[satsugaikaze]

And that's the thing.

I don't care how good a launch day lineup of games is, I'm not going to spend more than half a grand minimum for any of these entertainment experiences. It just disgusts me that for a demographic that is largely international they have to make people not in the US shell out another hundred or two dollars for the same product - Playstation or Xbox be damned.

Besides the games that I'm truly, genuinely excited for, the whole next-generation console gaming from a financial perspective is a complete farce. I'm glad that current-generation support for gaming will run concurrently to this next-generation, because I think next-gen purchases will have a veeeeeery long tail.

[Pilchard123]

Why do people keep treating Euro/British Pound prices as if they're equivalent to USD?

Because they can get away with it.

IDK, does cost-of-living come into it anywhere?

[GarandMarine]

I Know that this isn't the "PS4 Thread", but they (Sony) just make a direct attack against it:
 - "The PS4 CAN play used Games" "We believe in this model.." "If you own it, you should be able to sell it to retail, borrow it, or do whatever you want with it".
 - "No, it Won't need to be connected to certificate it; at all, or once a day , etc".

 

 

That commercial pretty much sold me XD

[snalin]

They don't cost the same.

399 euro is about 530 USD.
349 BP is about 540 USD.

International gamers are paying another hundred and a bit dollars to get the same product. It's fucking absurd.

Price levels are different in other places. It's not like this is a new development. The same thing goes for buying a house, a car, a movie, whatever. If the entire Euro zone has the same Euro price, that's absurd. That he companies are selling the console for the same numeric value of dollars as euros just reflects that US wages are unsustainably low, so they can cut the prices due to not having to pay the people who sell them much. Notice that the pund and euro prices are nearly identical - google tells me that 349 pounds are 409 euro.

Also I love Sony. It's a real pity that the PS4 isn't going to be backwards compatible (if it was, I'd probably buy it at launch), but that's due to decisions made back in 2004 or 2005 that made the architecture of the PS3 completely crazy.

[ChaoSera]

So, after yesterday it's pretty clear that the only reason to buy the XBOX One instead of the PS4 is if you really want to play some of the xbox-exclusive titles. Which, for me, is none at all. It's not like it makes much a difference for me, I also don't own a XBOX 360, while I do have a PS3. Never been much of an XBOX Fan.

In conclusion: Well played, Sony. This is how you make your competitor look like a fool.

[satsugaikaze]

Price levels are different in other places. It's not like this is a new development. The same thing goes for buying a house, a car, a movie, whatever. If the entire Euro zone has the same Euro price, that's absurd. That he companies are selling the console for the same numeric value of dollars as euros just reflects that US wages are unsustainably low, so they can cut the prices due to not having to pay the people who sell them much. Notice that the pund and euro prices are nearly identical - google tells me that 349 pounds are 409 euro.

Also I love Sony. It's a real pity that the PS4 isn't going to be backwards compatible (if it was, I'd probably buy it at launch), but that's due to decisions made back in 2004 or 2005 that made the architecture of the PS3 completely crazy.

I know it's not a new thing, but it doesn't make it any less shitty. There are still considerable differences in price, and I highly doubt all the markups are warranted, at least to the extent that the prices are jacked up. As Australians we seem to have been shafted, because here the price difference between the Xbox One and the Playstation 4 seems to be less than 50 dollars, sitting between the 550-600 AUD mark for both consoles.

Part of the cost would likely be the mandatory Kinect hardware taped to the Xbox One, I suppose. That and the fact that Microsoft were having difficulties with yield in manufacturing their huge-ass APU (which they likely designed to put up with all the extemporaneous crap), whereas in contrast Sony simply opted for something simpler and took a lucky gamble with the availability of mass-production GDDR5 RAM, if memory serves me right.

I'm hoping Microsoft can pick up their game (hurr) with the Xbox One up until launch and in the months to come after that. Could be likely in the future that they'll work out a redesign of the console (to improve shit and make it more cost effective for a viable price drop). To be quite honest, I actually want Microsoft to implement a digital distribution system of some kind. Mayhaps not necessarily with the mandatory daily online requirement (although for the majority of Xbox One users I doubt this will be a problem most of the time), but the PC (Steam, GOG.com, Origin etc.) model has proved that it can work. Having a digital distribution system for download of owned games is a great complement (as opposed to a replacement as many Steamworks games have become) to physical media, and full installation of games as is for the Xbox One will likely improve game performance across-the-board.
I think Microsoft simply needs to improve their sharing system, make it less restrictive as to who exactly you can lend it to and how many times you can do it. If they can ease off on the draconian rules of who exactly owns what at what time, they can have a system of ownership that reflects that of current digital distribution (which would obviously still be inferior to the PS4's fucking smug "give it to your friend" system), but in a way that doesn't make people feel like it's a personal attack on their rights. And they can do it, because they've always maintained that their terms of usage are fluid and subject to change. Even just changing that "up to 10 family members can share the game at any time and one dudebro only once" deal to "up to 10 friends or family at any time (which you would take and lend to different people as you wished), fullstop" would make a huge difference. None of this arbitrary 30-days-on-the-friends-list nonsense.

I want Microsoft to improve on the gamer angle, because whatever anyone says about the hardware the next generation of games we've seen look absolutely fucking fantastic, and it would be a crying shame to choice to a two-party preference (that's how shit politics happens in a country, right?  ) There are Xbox exclusives in that line-up (and there likely would be more in the future) that look like genuinely great fun to play. It'd be disappointing to have people miss out on them just because of some shitty executive policy-making.

[Blue Kitty]

[GarandMarine]

Meanwhile MS responds to criticism about their always online DRM and concerns that it might prevent some consumers from using the system at all.

[ackblom12]

[K1dmor]

 

 Because...why not?

[GarandMarine]

That abridged vid was extremely amusing... but only because it was so... accurate XD

[snalin]

"just let it happen, it will be over soon!"

He actually said that. To a woman. He was beating up in a game. That is... Oh my.

[ackblom12]

Yeah, MS fucked up on a shit load of different levels.

In that case, even without the thinly veiled rape joke, letting through a scripted event of a clueless woman getting the shit kicked out of her by a trash talking dude in a video game is tasteless at best considering the sexism problem within the gaming community.

[Masterpiece]

Microsoft just keeps reminding me why I don't like the XBOX brand.

[GarandMarine]

Here's the bottom line on the Xbone vs. the PSA



Shit on that standard I'd pick up a Wii U first... but if I get a console this generation looks like I'm going over to Sony for the first time since I stopped selling my soul to Nintendo primarily.

[ackblom12]

Honestly, I was giving serious thought to skipping a gen of consoles for the first time in my life if Sony had followed MS's lead.

I will admit, I'm pretty excited by Dead Rising 3. I doubt it'll stay exclusive to the One for more than a year, then I can pick up a GoTY edition for the PS4.

The downside to this is I'm unsure how they thought it was a good idea to make Dead Rising more brown and boring looking rather than the great color palettes of the earlier games.

Ok, and one last one.

[K1dmor]

 Shouldn't we rename this thread to something involving all the next-gen? There's no PS4-WiiU threads, and it could be better if we include all of them in one.

[GarandMarine]

Not a valid youtube URL

[RedWolf4]

I swear that somewhere out there, there is a Microsoft office and a Sony office just sitting across the street from one another, and the Sony office has a great big banner strung up reading 'SUCK IT', or some variation thereof.

[Lupercal]

Adam Orth, PRISM, DRM. The rumours leading up to E3 for Microsoft weren't really helping them.

I will probably get a PS4 at this rate, which is exciting because I haven't owned a Playstation before! Microsoft seem vaugley glad in the knowledge that a lot of COD players will probably stay with them. Do I care about losing Halo as a franchise? I guess, but Halo 4 was sort of hit and miss for me anyway. The TV series will be worth a watch but I can't justify supporting what we currently know about the XBone just for Halo 5, 6, 7 etc.

Loved the abridged Sony vid. D'ya like indie games? Well, we've got all of them

[Lupercal]

Shouldn't we rename this thread to something involving all the next-gen? There's no PS4-WiiU threads, and it could be better if we include all of them in one.

Fixed!