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So Stephen Colbert is going to be hosting The Late Show

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Neko_Ali:
Especially in the case of John and Stephen, they are fully responsible for what their characters say. As I understand it, they are part of the writing staff, and as the stars and focus of the show especially they can veto jokes they feel are offensive. John Stewart especially, since he doesn't play a character the way that Stephen Colbert does.

And I will point out that Stephen often has guests and viewers on his show who don't understand that he plays a satirical caricature of an ultra-right wing talk show host. They think he really being serious, and don't realize he's mocking those kinds of people. So expecting people to 'get' that it is meant to mock transphobia. Especially since there is no indication that is what they are doing, or that their transphobic jokes are meant satirically.

Jimor:
Stepping in the minefield... I am willing to accept that Colbert and Stewart aren't sufficiently enlightened on trans issues, and their ignorance has led to jokes that hit the wrong mark. However, as much as they may have screwed up, I will NOT consider either of them anywhere near as an enemy of the movement we need to make toward true equality for all. They continually and effectively nail those who act daily and without remorse out of pure hate, and to make them out as exactly the same because they don't meet a particular set of standards is extremely counterproductive. In fact, I'd call that kind of attitude one of the greatest moral failings of my side of this fight. I've seen people I know savaged in online fights over minor discrepancies in right-thinking, and it both sickens and saddens me because it gives credence to all of the reactionary bullshit the real bigots spout into society as they desperately try to stifle progress in the name of their own insecurities.

There are REAL monsters out there. Call out mistakes of allies, or mistakes I make, because we will all make them from time to time, but if anybody ever tries to tell me I'm on the wrong side, I'll know they're full of shit and anything they have to say after that has no meaning.

BeoPuppy:

--- Quote from: Neko_Ali on 12 Apr 2014, 19:46 ---Especially in the case of John and Stephen, they are fully responsible for what their characters say. As I understand it, they are part of the writing staff, and as the stars and focus of the show especially they can veto jokes they feel are offensive. John Stewart especially, since he doesn't play a character the way that Stephen Colbert does.
[...]

--- End quote ---
That's exactly the point I have trouble with: to what extend are you responsible for the words your characters utter in a work of fiction? You are writing words that drive the narrative and the narrative dictates what a character says and changing the words would hinder the narrative being told.

I am apparently all for the artist's right to speak his/her bloody mind. I am not yet sure where the line should be drawn.

Valdís:

--- Quote from: mustang6172 on 11 Apr 2014, 19:01 ---Persecution complex will do that.
--- End quote ---

Yeah, that's nice. Go away now, troll.


--- Quote from: BeoPuppy on 12 Apr 2014, 16:41 ---But everything he says is satire. Surely people will realise that nothing that he says makes sense so the transphobia is wrong too? Or am I making too big an assumption about the ability of people to 'read' this show?
--- End quote ---

No it fucking isn't. That's excuse-making. In no way does he punch at transphobes with his "jokes"; he's only attacking trans people and trans women in particular. Repeating verbatim the widespread transmisogyny of society for cheap, bigoted laughs is in no way "satire". Stop instantly leaping to accusing people who object for supposedly having a poor grasp on reality.

Furthermore what fucking point would such supposed "satire" have anyway? If it only makes transphobes laugh and enthusiastically support you and the people it's actually about hurt and turn off your show? How is that not just being a transphobe, regardless of any supposed "intent" (which isn't there, just stop already)?


--- Quote from: Jimor on 12 Apr 2014, 21:20 ---because they don't meet a particular set of standards is extremely counterproductive. In fact, I'd call that kind of attitude one of the greatest moral failings of my side of this fight. I've seen people I know savaged in online fights over minor discrepancies in right-thinking, and it both sickens and saddens me
--- End quote ---

Oh, you mean it's counterproductive to cis people's problems if we don't shut up and take it when someone is being overtly harmful towards us? Because we're "minor discrepancies"? Fuck right off with this shit.


--- Quote from: Jimor on 12 Apr 2014, 21:20 ---Call out mistakes of allies, or mistakes I make, because we will all make them from time to time,
--- End quote ---

How about you stop being a presumptive ass, okay? They aren't fucking "allies" just because you like to consider them to be in your liberal bubble. It isn't "from time to time", it's "on every occasion". It isn't that they aren't called out - they are, constantly - it's that they don't care and ridicule us for doing so.

Never, ever, ever confuse someone being supportive of homosexual people with being an ally to trans people. Or even L or BQ people. Or whatever. Stop assuming people support groups they don't just in general. And especially don't tell that group to shut up about these imagined "Allies".


--- Quote from: Jimor on 12 Apr 2014, 21:20 ---but if anybody ever tries to tell me I'm on the wrong side, I'll know they're full of shit and anything they have to say after that has no meaning.
--- End quote ---

So, if someone says you're consistently acting oppressively you'd rather dismiss them and all their concerns because it hurt your feelings? Quality Allying, right there. That view that you hold the right, over the affected group, to define what counts as "The REAL monster out there" worthy of objections.. Sheesh.

Valdís:
Can all the cis people here stop pretending that most cis people aren't transphobic and cissexist as fuck, please? Please? No? ..Okay. :meh:

They aren't some outlandish minority view of sign-waving bigots, alright?


--- Quote from: BeoPuppy on 13 Apr 2014, 01:32 ---I am apparently all for the artist's right to speak his/her bloody mind.
--- End quote ---

MAH FREE SPEECH

Seriously, this is always just derailing. Free speech isn't freedom from consequence etc. They can be as transphobic and cissexist as they like. Just stop pretending they aren't already.

(As if they don't make it abundantly clear that there aren't really any consequences for being transmisogynistic in this society.)

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