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flfederation:

--- Quote from: N.N. Marf on 12 Oct 2020, 20:49 ---but definitely ought can protect against threat.

--- End quote ---

Threats are not protected speech, haven't been since Lincoln was shot. Anybody claiming they hav e a right to make threats is simply not versed in the subject they're talking about. I realise this does not contradict what you're saying (and it is not aimed at what you're saying.)

With that said, I feel it should be made acceptable to threaten in self-defence. If someone brandishes a weapon at you, and you threaten them, I don't think that should be a crime. Though that sort of thing can get very complicated if we want it to, that's how things tend to work in practice. They get more and more complicated until a voice of reason and wisdom enters the conversation. But that seems to be a rare event in the world these days.

When rules are made with substandard quality and are hastily implemented to avoid due process, those rules end up being just another weapon in the hands of an attacker. Some people know this from experience. Others demand the right to learn this the hard way, at the expense of everybody else.People are funny. They realise that all guns should have a safety on them, so that they don't go off accidentally. Then they start writing laws, and demand that the laws themselves have all safety mechanisms removed. They were right the first time, they had the right idea, but then they got going full steam and forgot what they were doing.


You can hardly maintain a just society when people are finding ways to prevent anybody from discussing which rules are stupid. Someone willing to say so has always entered the conversation, but what we do to those people is a matter of fashion.

LeeC:

--- Quote from: hedgie on 12 Oct 2020, 18:52 ---IIRC, the ankles thing was mostly an American attempt to emulate the Victorians.  IIRC, in the 12th and 13th centuries, heavy cleavage, if not bare breasts were fairly common amongst the ladies.

--- End quote ---

That could be. I know the shoulder thing is true though. I was surprised to find out my wife was brought up saying you should cover your shoulders when trying to be presentable and especially when going to church. It was something that stuck around in eastern europe and survived into the modern age (along with many other superstitions I was made aware of). Looking at some medieval art of women from the period seems like the ankle thing might not be too far off though (for nobles since they could afford nice clothes). And I almost say the same with men in that regard. Granted central heating wasn't a thing and keeping warm while working outside in brisk weather was probably important and common whether you were a lowly peasant or a noble. And then the inverse when it was to hot I am willing to bet the men and women had bear arms and legs to help cool off when farming.




Maybe instead of showing skin (I still maintain the shoulder idea though) but perhaps impressive hats like a wimple? Then again a commoner might have thought an impressive hat meant nobility and that was nothing to trifle with. Doing a bit more research, eye contact was a huge thing in courtship and so maybe sexy/hungry eyes would have done the trick back then. I still don;t feel like I have a firm answer though. Still something to muse about.

N.N. Marf:
Headwear protect against falling pest. (Wanna revive headwear tradition with embeded panoramic cameras to fight surveillance with surveillance?)

--- Quote from: flfederation on 12 Oct 2020, 20:12 ---let people check off list items that something had been "properly addressed" in a useless, one-size-fits-one-size way without actually accomplishing a thing

--- End quote ---
Depends on checklist. Bad checklist, yes. How to make good checklist?..

--- Quote from: flfederation on 12 Oct 2020, 20:12 ---[bad:] not taking one person seriously is a moral crime but actually hearing out this other person is actually wrong

--- End quote ---
Especially longtime outmodes.

--- Quote from: flfederation on 12 Oct 2020, 20:57 ---I feel it should be made acceptable to threaten in self-defence. If someone brandishes a weapon at you, and you threaten them, I don't think that should be a crime. Though that sort of thing can get very complicated if we want it to,

--- End quote ---
Can be simple: (practically: reasonably seemingly) minimal counterthreat threat is OK. (Likewise about counterviolence.) (Unnecessary implies null is minimal.)

LeeC:

--- Quote from: N.N. Marf on 12 Oct 2020, 21:56 ---Headwear protect against falling pest. (Wanna revive headwear tradition with embeded panoramic cameras to fight surveillance with surveillance?)


--- End quote ---

I didn't say the peasant would be turned away from a woman in headware nor that peasant women wouldn't wear them, but elaborate headware would make the peasant man wary.  If someone was to see you talking to, let alone flirting with your better, it may not work out so well. Hypothetically anyway. I know upward movement for peasants during feudal times was very difficult. I am reminded of Hark! A Vagrant's romantic peasant strips:
http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=255

flfederation:

--- Quote from: N.N. Marf link=topic=29969.msg1451821#msg1451821 --- How to make good checklist?..
--- End quote ---
Don't make them more superficial than the process necessitates. The problem is, checklists encourage superficiality. Like the one that says
* I voted.Did you ensure that the voting process isn't broken or corrupt? Did you hold the candidates to the same standards on their second term as the first? Did you have more than one real choice, (really?)

These are all potential checklist items, though really this checklist only has one question on it. X it off and you're done for years. That's what checklists do in practice.

They're fine for situations where you can really enumerate all the questions that matter. If you can't do that, the checklist is pretty much going to cost you whatever questions you can't predict the need for . But people aren't good at determining whether a checklist is sufficient for a given solution or not-- perhaps because they're using a checklist to determine the suitability.

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