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[MooskiNet]

So, all signs point to Marten discovering (or at least acknowledging) his feelings for Claire pretty recently - but what about Claire?  When do you think she started to crush on Marty?

Yeah, this begs for over-analysis, but you guys are so damned good at it.

[Carl-E]

When she came out to him at the lake party. 

No, wait - it was probably during intern training, when she was righteously indignant, and then when he took their training seriously, she apologized and thanked him. 

Aw hell, who knows when a crush begins?  It's usually pretty close to first sight. 

[BenRG]

My guess is that it was at the lake party. It's the only reason I can think of why she should come out to him at that moment. Yes, he was a colleague and they were developing a friendship. However, the act of coming out seemed to me at the time totally out-of-context and out-of-the-blue. I do have to wonder if she was feeling an attraction to him and wanted this particular skeleton out of her cupboard as soon as possible.

I suspect that she expected him to distance himself from her as a result of her telling him the truth. When he didn't, it deepened the crush. From that point on, what happened the night after the wedding reception in Vermont was inevitable.

[Carl-E]

See, I think it was earlier, prompting her coming out at the lake party, hence my revision.  Throughout training and working with him, she was attracted by his overall character and niceness - a crush developed.  Where did it start exactly?  Probably when her feelings about his being an incompetent boob reversed, during the training montage. 

[BenRG]

I'll say something else. I think we can thank Cossette. Why? Normally, I think Claire kept her sexuality locked up tight due to self-esteem issues. However, Cossette teasing her and offering to let her pat Steve's butt for ten dollars made her start thinking about men in a sensual way for a while (alcohol probably helped too). I suspect she started looking around, feeling a bit jealous of Cossette and Steve as well as Faye and Angus and this made her suddenly realise what a nice guy Marten was (both on a physical and behavioural level).

It's interesting that the Lake Party in many ways marks a behavioural sea-change in Claire too. Since then, she's become a lot less confrontational and a lot more stable, losing her superiority complex almost entirely. She's made a clear effort to rein in her neuroses and relate to others on a more equal level. As well as realising that she likes likes Marten, I think that was the point when she realised that she potentially has a large circle of non-familial friends, possibly for the first time since she began her transition. She wanted that and it has made her make a lot of effort to improve herself.

[MooskiNet]

I think it's from before the lake party as well - mostly on the strength of this comic.  Her appeal to Marten seems... almost flirtatious. 

Probably reading too much into it, but that's almost the point of this thread.

[BenRG]

I think it's from before the lake party as well - mostly on the strength of this comic.  Her appeal to Marten seems... almost flirtatious. 

I can't see any hint of flirtation. What I see is a desperate young woman appealing to the only familiar face in the room to save her from the crazy lady (who seems to be crazy because of Claire's brother, which is another reason to pick on him).

[AprilArcus]

During training. Her crush is fully established by the next day.

[Pilchard123]

Over-analysis, go go go!

I don't really think this is related at all, but if I was so inclined, I may point out that the news post for that day contains the following:

I finished a new Deathmole album over the weekend! It is called "Advances" and features lots and lots of really distorted guitars. I am very pleased with it and hope you will enjoy it too. Click that graphic above the newspost to listen, and purchase it if you are so inclined.

Advances, hm? Any particular reason that an album with that title was announced on this particular day?

[davedig]

I dunno, maybe Claire did have a slight crush on him before opening up at the beach house. I like to think she liked him as a friend and when he accepted her she started feeling something.

[Aziraphale]

I'd date it from just after the wedding reception. Obviously, she liked him well enough as a friend and trusted him enough to come out to him at the lake party; the way he took that, the fact that he didn't treat her any differently afterward, and that he was also understanding of her anxiety over falling asleep with him after the reception, I think validated that trust, let some feelings develop, and made her realize that however things worked out, she'd be safe with him.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Claire is difficult to read. With most of the cast, Jeph starts the emotion with the shape of the eyes. Claire doesn't. She seems to be more about the eyebrows.

It's hard to get a good read from her dialogue. She tends to start speaking, and start over often. Best guess: Claire is easy to fluster. But she is also dogged, so she tends to push through.

I think Claire got Marten coffee on day two for exactly the reason she gave. Some time between the lake house and the wedding, is my best guess.

Claire seems to have told Marten about her because the author needed her to do that. Or maybe because she was supposed to be more impulsive than she ended up being. Jeph tends to figure these things out as he goes.

Let's say it was a spur of the moment thing. It happens. The thing is, people don't like decisions they don't understand. Example: science took a person who right and left brain are not connected and tested him. If you show this man a picture that only his left eye can see, he can't describe it, because his left brain controls the speech centers (left brain sees with the right eye, for those who didn't know). Anyway, in one test they gave the man the instruction to get up and leave the room, now. But only in the left eye. The idea being to see if the left brain could pick up on this in any way. So then, they asked him why he was leaving the room. He said he wanted a coke. This is basically repeatable. Give instructions to the side of the brain that can't speak then ask the side that can, why are you doing that, and the patient will make up an answer.

So maybe Claire asked, "why did I tell him that, really?"I

She didn't have to answer, "because I have a crush on him." In fact, it would make sense if her answer was "I don't know." Because that's not satisfying. And the fastest route to infatuation is asking yourself why in relation to the other person.

She starts with the baby duck impression after the party. She's definitely infatuated by the night of the wedding. I'd pin it to very close to the lake house. Mostly because that is also when she changed the way she wears her hair.

[GarandMarine]

Going to vast my vote with the pre-lake house group.

[Rghfrgl]

During training. Her crush is fully established by the next day.

I was going to point to this. Although there's a chance she was just trying to make up for getting in Marten's face. Or just actually kissing ass.

[MooskiNet]

During training. Her crush is fully established by the next day.

That's persuasive, except I'm not seeing something that is as much a part of Claire's persona as her floofy red hair:  her blushing.  I'm not believing she could hand her crush a cup of coffee and get called out on it and not blush like she's been caught with her hand in a cookie jar.

[Aziraphale]

During training. Her crush is fully established by the next day.

I was going to point to this. Although there's a chance she was just trying to make up for getting in Marten's face. Or just actually kissing ass.

I think she realizes she might've been a bit overbearing the day before, and is trying to walk it back the next day. We've seen this from her on a number of occasions; aside from her anxiety, it's one of the most consistently-shown parts of her personality. Overreact, process, revisit, repeat.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

I also think Claire was in a state of flux as a character.

I mentioned that Claire changed her hair just after the Lake house, but I don't really think that's evidence of anything other than Jeph deciding her wanted to change the way she presented. Up to that point, she had all of her hair pulled back in a pony tail, except one lock hanging to the right. Right after the party, she's actually shown restyling her hair, and Jeph makes a joke out of it From then on, she always keeps a forelock free om both side, with left, or both, tucked behind her ears.

From this point, two weeks pass and Claire volunteers to drive Marten to the wedding. It seems like a friendly gesture to anyone not from New England, but this is the same universe where everyone accepted that Dora was moving really far away until it was pointed out that a 20 minute drive is only a long way in small state logic. The 90 minute drive to Vermont would be out of the way to a small state native, and Claire volunteered just to drive him there. Marten invited her to wedding after. That's definitely a "I want to spend time with you" moment. I'm just adding an in universe reason for the hair thing, and using that to justify placing the beginning of the crush between the wedding and the lake house.

It's my headcanon, and you should respect that.

[Storel]

It's my headcanon, and you should respect that.

“We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.” — H.L. Mencken

I respect your headcannon as if it were your religion. 

[ReindeerFlotilla]

I respect your headcannon as if it were your religion. 

Well, since that's supposed to be St. Paul's head on that cannon, it's appropriate.

Except I have no religion. It was shot off in the war.

[BenRG]

The problem is that Marten is so continually polite and gentlemanly towards all the ladies that it is sometimes plausible that they have misconstrued brotherly or friendly politeness as a romantic gesture. I suspect that Martin was unaware that he could be romantically interested in Claire until he reviewed his thoughts and feelings during The Night of the Skritch the morning afterwards.

[DSL]

I respect your headcannon as if it were your religion. 

Well, since that's supposed to be St. Paul's head on that cannon, it's appropriate.

Except I have no religion. It was shot off in the war.

Yeah, but Paul's head is growing out of the breech of that cannon. What does that make the muzzle?

[Krald]

Claire also was not being all that subtle here http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2785 on second reading.

[BenRG]

Claire also was not being all that subtle here http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2785 on second reading.

Oh yeah, by that point she was deep into crush territory, wasn't she? Wearing a pretty blue dress with a low front (and back too, I presume) and trying, no matter how ineptly, to flirt with Marten! I don't think anyone could seriously doubt that!

[edit]
To add further strength to this conclusion, check out Claire's body language and other subconscious tells in strip 2786! The thought of Marten losing the job and moving away was pretty stressful from what I'm seeing!

[Blackbird]

Regardless of when Claire's crush began, I don't think she realized it until after the wedding (just like Marten's feeling for Claire certainly started before the baby duck skritch night, but he didn't realize it until then).   

To me, the sudden outing of herself and the less-obnoxious personality after the the lake house seems less like the beginning of a crush and more like that's when she started thinking of Marten as a real friend (as opposed to just a work friend), and probably the first real friend she's had in a long time.  I agree with others that the sudden "hey, I'm trans" was supposed to be a defense mechanism to give Marten a chance to have a problem with it before she started caring about him, but at the time I think it was more of a platonic caring, or at least that's what she told herself.  From there, her actions all seem like they're coming from a "you're my only real friend besides my dorky brother and I want to be a good friend" place rather than an attraction.  This includes offering to drive him to the wedding.

Then, she went to the wedding with him and realized (a) that she felt entirely safe with him and (b) that his family is so eccentric and accepting that they'd accept her for who she is if something were to develop with Marten.  It was after those realizations and the fact that he wasn't bothered by her drunkenly cuddling him (as he would have been if he considered her to be a guy) that she started admitting to herself that Marten could be more than a friend.

That's just my read on it, of course.  The main reason I love QC is that the plots are so outwardly simple yet so subtly complex.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Yeah, but Paul's head is growing out of the breech of that cannon. What does that make the muzzle?

Never stand at the north end of a south bound saint.

[Nepiophage]

I date it from http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2370 -- second panel -- she thinks Dora is lucky to have had Marten, no?  My first ever post said as much:

I think that Claire is developing a crush on Marten and that she thinks Dora was the lucky one.

Though I predicted Marten would not reciprocate. I'm glad I was wrong about that.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

I think that is after the start. But I happen to agree with the assessment that she is saying Dora was lucky. I think 2380 bears this out. Henry Reed is generally viewed as a preview of what Marten is going to age into. Comments before and after 2380 refer to how much they look alike.

[Rghfrgl]

I date it from http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2370 -- second panel -- she thinks Dora is lucky to have had Marten, no?

That strip(And this one) made me think Claire might be a little bi, even if leaning one way more than the other, but whether that's the case or she was just being objective I think the emphasis was on Dora there. I don't think DORA would be all caps otherwise.

Now getting mad at Tai for breaking Marten's heart, that might be because of a crush(Partially, obviously as she has a reason to dislike people having affairs in general).

[ReindeerFlotilla]

I dunno. I'm not bi, but I know and attractive man when I see one.

But from that context I would think of either Dora or Marten as Luckyyyy. They are both attractive people. (For a while, everything with double X chromosomes was attracted to Marten. Including Yelling Bird.) It wouldn't seem unusual or remarkable that they dated. I could only think one of them was Luckyyyy if I were attracted, strongly, to the other.

I could imagine Claire thinking of Dora in all caps if her background process was "Was he into DORA? Does that mean he like fair skinned girls or is he into tall and dark, because I'm fair but I'm neither of the others?"

Also, Hanners is pretty. Sven's blurt about her being his type wasn't a come on, and he regretted in that, "Oh god, let this subject go away" way. But I think that plays to the fact that he overcompensated with honesty, and he's not used to that. Hanners is a tall, willowy, green eyed blonde. That's kinda hot. Beyond that, pretty much everyone in the strip has been referred to as cute by someone else.

Edit: I immediately thought "Except Dale" but Marigold thinks he's pretty.

[hedgie]

Actually, birds use ZW as their sex chromosomes.  Males are ZZ, and females are ZW.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

That's probably for the best.

[AprilArcus]

I date it from http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2370 -- second panel -- she thinks Dora is lucky to have had Marten, no?

That strip(And this one) made me think Claire might be a little bi, even if leaning one way more than the other, but whether that's the case or she was just being objective I think the emphasis was on Dora there. I don't think DORA would be all caps otherwise.

Bi-leaning-straight, I think. She never gets blushy about girls.

[Neko_Ali]

I don't think there is any bi to Claire at all. You can see people as being attractive without being attracted to them. Claire has never been shown as being attracted to women, just men.

[Gladstone]

[...] I agree with others that the sudden "hey, I'm trans" was supposed to be a defense mechanism to give Marten a chance to have a problem with it before she started caring about him, but at the time I think it was more of a platonic caring, or at least that's what she told herself.
[...]
Then, she went to the wedding with him and realized (a) that she felt entirely safe with him and (b) that his family is so eccentric and accepting that they'd accept her for who she is if something were to develop with Marten.  It was after those realizations and the fact that he wasn't bothered by her drunkenly cuddling him (as he would have been if he considered her to be a guy) that she started admitting to herself that Marten could be more than a friend.

I also think that #2801 was another, last-ditch defense mechanism.  "We should stop because you're drunk," obviously, but also "We should stop in case you're not that drunk, so the next time we see each other you can pretend you were really drunk and don't remember any of this and we can go back to being friends and nobody will get hurt except I might die a little inside," but Marten didn't take the hint (or he refused to acknowledge it), which is partly why she was so unprepared to find him at her breakfast table the next morning, and just as unprepared when he told her he wanted to talk about the night before.  You had an out, Marten, why didn't you take it?!  Oh, right, because you like her.  Carry on.

[Gladstone]

Also, I couldn't say when the crush first began, but it was certainly there when Claire tied the Quintuple Windsor.

[Aziraphale]

Also, I couldn't say when the crush first began, but it was certainly there when Claire tied the Quintuple Windsor.

That's one of my favorite strips.

[Gladstone]

That's one of my favorite strips.

I didn't notice it before, but even Marten is blushing a tiny bit in panels 5 and 6.

(Although that might just be a minor Claireburn from the heat radiating off her face.)

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Agreed. Claire's a go getter. She sees a problem, and she starts working on overcoming it.

That she didn't pursue Marten goes against type. But she also never had any kind of romantic relationship. I think makes perfect sense for her to try to dodge the issue. Especially since it wasn't clear to her that Marten was interested.

I can't see her avoiding it entirely. It was a thing that happened, and in this case I would expect her to at least confirm that Marten didn't remember, before dropping it. But she probably hadn't come up with a plan by morning.

The interesting thing, to me, is the fact that she was right. Marten was too drunk to know what he was doing. Based on the fact that he didn't get pancakes before making up his mind, he didn't take long to decide that he approved of his drunk logic, but the fact that he needed to process it says that, he wouldn't have gone there sober.

The question on my mind is why? Was he really clueless about his attraction to Claire, was it about Claire being trans, or was he still trying to maintain the no boning interns rule?

I tend to think the trans thing wasn't an issue. Sadly, I don't remember the context so I can't quickly find the strip. But, aside from the typical anti-gay stuff that is almost society-pervasive, Marten is pretty much the opposite of homophobic. He said that gay sex itself didn't bother him. He just didn't know how to handle homosexual intimacy. He said he would want to high-five any dude he was banging because, dude! Sex!

Given the fact that he clearly relates to Claire as a woman, I can't imagine him having trans-phobic reservations. Add to that, the whole zero hesitation about going after her, when the time came. Maybe his speech plan included what he said when Claire asked, but he realized it was "stupid." And in a sense it was. It really was a statement that needed to be made when the question was asked, not as some kind of explanation of intent.

That said, if Claire was worried about that being a problem the night before, her desire to be intimate with Marten was a bigger factor in the morning. After all, she waited until after agreeing to see where it goes before asking.

[Gladstone]

I tend to think the trans thing wasn't an issue. Sadly, I don't remember the context so I can't quickly find the strip. But, aside from the typical anti-gay stuff that is almost society-pervasive, Marten is pretty much the opposite of homophobic. He said that gay sex itself didn't bother him. He just didn't know how to handle homosexual intimacy. He said he would want to high-five any dude he was banging because, dude! Sex!

Yep, found that strip a few days ago, shortly after AprilArcus's awesome post on Marten and Tai's friendship.  Marten's comment that "The urge to high-five [a guy] in the middle of [sex] would be overwhelming" was kinda played for laughs, but it still gave us an early hint that he was pretty open-minded about sex.  Claire, of course, is a woman, and Marten doesn't even consider high-fiving her for her awesome puns (C'mon, dude!  How could you not fall a little in love with her after she did this?  A hangover wouldn't've stopped me from at least cracking a smile...), but #1024 is some good evidence that his attraction to Claire now isn't out of character.  That said, without the alcohol, and Faye subtly nudging things along, the two of them might have danced around the issue for several hundred more strips, and Steve only has a year's worth of cereal to eat.

[Gladstone]

The question on my mind is why? Was he really clueless about his attraction to Claire, was it about Claire being trans, or was he still trying to maintain the no boning interns rule?

...But yeah, to answer your question, I'd say it was a mix of cluelessness and rule-abiding, both negated by the booze.  As you said, her being trans doesn't seem to be an issue, based on it being addressed after the declaration of like and the kiss.

(And if Marten was uncomfortable with Claire's status, he could've easily gone the "Sorry I was really drunk last night sorry if I did anything weird" route.  Glad he didn't.  That way lies no squee.)

[ReindeerFlotilla]

We may never know. Which is kinda sad.

[Carl-E]

I will always wonder what the content of the spiel he had planned was going to be. 

"Look, I really like you as a friend..." 

"I'm sorry, I must've been more drink than I thought..." 

"I like you, but as your superior at work..." 


Anything to let her down gently. 


Until he realized he didn't want to let her down...

[ReindeerFlotilla]

I will always wonder what the content of the spiel he had planned was going to be. 

"Look, I really like you as a friend..." 

"I'm sorry, I must've been more drink than I thought..." 

"I like you, but as your superior at work..." 


Anything to let her down gently. 


Until he realized he didn't want to let her down...

I like to imagine it wasn't like that, but it could have been. It probably should have been, now that I think about--even if it violates my headcanon about Marty. It's a MUCH more interesting reaction.

[Dalillama]

I will always wonder what the content of the spiel he had planned was going to be. 

"Look, I really like you as a friend..." 

"I'm sorry, I must've been more drink than I thought..." 

"I like you, but as your superior at work..." 


Anything to let her down gently. 


Until he realized he didn't want to let her down...

Nah, I figure it was a long, rambling discourse on how he was attracted to her, but didn't want to make a move because he'd her boss and it would be creepy, and also  how he wasn't at all bothered by her being trans*, possibly accompanied by a riff on his family history (much of which she already know), and also all kinds of other baggage that he was and wasn't bringing into things, but decided that it wouldn't help and would offer a huge chance to put his foot in his mouth and fuck things up, so he didn't say it.  Which was well-advised of him, honestly.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

Ooo! Ooo! Just had a thought.

This is totally reading too much into it, but what if Marten's unconcious attraction was influencing his behavior all the way back at the lake house?

So, Claire would have some, purely physical interest in Steve, but beyond that why would she care if he took himself off to bed? And why would Marten feel the need to tell her?

Then he does a Reed Segue (he takes after Veronica) in to "let's talk about you."

Claire returns the volley smartly with "Let's talk about you," but Marten handles it well with an akido move "The part me you want to discuss includes you!" He breaks Claire's defense and the metaphor.

Claire actually starts with a kind of punishing submission: "Okay, you want to talk about me, well I'm tr--"

Blam FAYE!!!!

Now here's the thing. all of that kinda comes together as A SIGN when you consider how annoyed Marten is with Faye. She's done far worse, and he's pretty much just accepted it. And she was right. It was prime make out space. I hesitate to suggest that his upset stems from Faye hitting too close to home with "get kissy or go back inside." But I feel good about the conjecture that he was upset because he was having a moment with a cute girl, when Faye dumped a tonne of crude on it. Well, maybe not a ton, but a considerable amount.

[Rghfrgl]

The goofball smile on Marten's face the whole time at Claire's house wasn't the look of someone about to reject someone.

[BenRG]

The goofball smile on Marten's face the whole time at Claire's house wasn't the look of someone about to reject someone.

FWIW, I suspect his smile was in part disorientation. Since Mrs A practically dragged him over, he'd felt somewhat the passenger in the story.

[ReindeerFlotilla]

The goofball smile on Marten's face the whole time at Claire's house wasn't the look of someone about to reject someone.

FWIW, I suspect his smile was in part disorientation. Since Mrs A practically dragged him over, he'd felt somewhat the passenger in the story.

Nah. SmugMarten is too powerful for bemusement. I'm pretty sure he'd resolved any conflicts about it before he called. If he had any. I'm still not convinced he did.

[who?]

Over-analysis engaged...

2237 - Claire buying a coffee for Marten on the second day. Her explanation seems genuine considering her seriousness about being a librarian. Claire's angry (rather than embarrassed) reaction seems to back it up. I don't think it's an indication of a crush.

2272-2281 - Bonding Through Coffee Shop Walks

   2272 - Panel 4 "What about me?" - for joke purposes only?

2322 & 2323 - "You say you're my friend. Will you still be my friend if I tell you my secret?" Claire doesn't really have any close friends that we see in the strip, so not sure how she usually deals with other people on this issue. Claire takes a risk by telling Marten, looks a bit surprised by Marten's response (she was probably expecting different) and then her happy expression (I'm not really sure what to call that expression) in panel 5. I don't think there's a crush yet, but trust is there now.

2327 - Claire is happy that she told Marten, panel 1

2362-2367 - Bonding Through More Coffee Shop Walks

2370 - For me this is the first overt indication of a crush or at least a high regard for Marten. Though Claire's 'luckyyyy' is a bit ambiguous as to who she thinks is lucky, because Dora is emphasised I think she means Dora is lucky.

2372 - +1 Bonding

2377 - Claire's offer to give Marten a lift to the wedding.

The Wedding Arc - What might've been a background crush is brought to the forefront. Marten and Claire basically are together for the whole weekend right? There's a few strips to choose from in this arc, here are two:

   2390 - The tie tying where both are blushing
   2403 - Flirting panel 6?

2431 - Flirting detected panel 3

2435 - Ding ding ding. Icing on cake in panel 3. Claire sees that Marten isn't put off by the episode. So Claire starts seeking out Marten outside work hours in 2445. At which point it is crush confirmed.

In summary, Her crush is arguably there during the wedding arc and I would say definitely present immediately after the wedding arc. It's difficult to pinpoint when it started.

I submit that her crush developed between the lake party and strip 2370 - I think they probably made additional off screen coffee shop trips where it developed.

/over-analysis

[Neko_Ali]

I dunno, in my experience it's kind of hard to say when a crush develops. I tend to get to know people before any kind of romantic feelings evolve for them, so it's hard for me to say when things move from 'cool friend' to 'person I want to date'.