Topic: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age) (Read 522313 times)

BenRG · « **Reply #2050 on:** 22 Jan 2016, 01:22 »

This may be just my mind going to strange places. However, I have noted the number of people over on the DoA comments thread who have asked why Mary didn't seem to care about Ruth's casual violence and verbal abuse of everyone on the floor when she was denouncing Ruth's perceived failings yesterday. The thought that occurs to me is that Mary didn't mention this because her background taught her that abuse (both physical, verbal and emotional) is how authority figures are supposed to exercise their authority.

Parental abuse? Maybe or maybe something that is more broadly-based in her entire home community. It might explain a lot of why she thinks certain things are acceptable.

Kugai · « **Reply #2051 on:** 22 Jan 2016, 15:15 »

I get the feeling that this is going to backfire on Mary by a massive proportion.

explicit · « **Reply #2052 on:** 22 Jan 2016, 23:14 »

I feel strange about fictional characters like Mary because they're supposed to be hated, even by the people whom she represents.

It basically sets it up so there is no redemption for this character and is probably just another way for Joyce to lose a bit more of her faith. I know I'm being cynical, but I can't help but feel this is just an athiest coming of age comic at this point (which technically makes sense seeing as Willis says Joyce signified him growing up).

I'm sorry, I'll go crawl in my hole now ....

BenRG · « **Reply #2053 on:** 22 Jan 2016, 23:26 »

Right now, I just want to give Carla a hug

Interesting that Willis so accurately anticipated the thoughts and reasoning of Mary's apologists amongst his readership.

Neko_Ali · « **Reply #2054 on:** 23 Jan 2016, 07:01 »

Well, hell. Funny how in one like Willis managed to sum up how trans people feel everytime they're excluded from something/legal protections because it's just easier to get it accomplished that way, or to protect people from having to deal with facts they'd rather pretend didn't. Like the fact that trans people exist and are you know... people.

Kugai · « **Reply #2055 on:** 23 Jan 2016, 13:00 »

Bang on there Carla. Nice way to kick Ruth where it hurts for not standing up to Mary in the first place consequences be damned. Someone seriously needs to drop the Hammer on Mary.

CrowFairy · « **Reply #2056 on:** 23 Jan 2016, 13:17 »

Does Ruth telling Mary not to talk to Carla that way (previous strip) not count toward standing up for Carla?

Kugai · « **Reply #2057 on:** 23 Jan 2016, 13:21 »

In a minor way it does, but how she reacted after Mary effectively pulled out 'The Blackmail Hammer' after that leaves a lot to be desired.

Neko_Ali · « **Reply #2058 on:** 23 Jan 2016, 15:01 »

Yes, Ruth did stand up for Carla, when she was in a position of strength. But as soon as Mary dropped the blackmail bomb she backed off and ran away. As soon as things got hair for her personally, she stopped defending Carla and basically let Mary know she can get away with it. That's what Carla means by being used to being everyone's acceptable losses. Harsh? Sure. Ruth was pretty freaked out herself at that moment and Carla was thinking of her own problems... But it's also true. To often people are willing to stand up for trans folk... Until it becomes personally dangerous. Or inconvenient. Then it's 'whelp, you're on your own.'

Method of Madness · « **Reply #2059 on:** 23 Jan 2016, 15:32 »

So it's 100% confirmed that Carla is trans now.

Kugai · « **Reply #2060 on:** 23 Jan 2016, 18:55 »

CrowFairy · « **Reply #2061 on:** 23 Jan 2016, 18:58 »

Yep!

I'd feel grateful that she stepped in at all, personally. But now that I think about it, she chose to risk Carla's happiness rather than her job. Plus, it looks (at least at the moment) likes she's not planning on doing anything about Carla's skates.

Ruth does better once she's had time to script things. Here's hoping she steps away from this with an idea of what she can and should do.

Kugai · « **Reply #2062 on:** 24 Jan 2016, 13:54 »

*Gibbs Smacks Walky*

Method of Madness · « **Reply #2063 on:** 26 Jan 2016, 16:37 »

Becky knows how to college.

retrosteve · « **Reply #2064 on:** 26 Jan 2016, 18:55 »

Quote from: explicit on 22 Jan 2016, 23:14

I feel this is just an athiest coming of age comic at this point (which technically makes sense seeing as Willis says Joyce signified him growing up).

...JUST an atheist coming of age comic? Even if that were all it was (and it's not), that's a pretty darn interesting topic, worthy of a few year's worth of webcomics, no? How would it be better if it were, say, 'just a science-fiction fantasy AI comic" or "just a slice-of-life twentysomething romance comic"?

Puzzled at your dismissal.

explicit · « **Reply #2065 on:** 26 Jan 2016, 21:18 »

Same reason I hated "Divergent"*. When a point is being made in a seemingly lazy fashion, it is a turn off. Every significant Christian in this comic - besides Joyce - is shown to be overly flawed, with seemingly little objectivity (even with Joyce, shown to be aggravatingly naive at best).

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy this comic and I think Willis is a funny guy who can make some very well articulated points. I will never tell someone what to do with their art, but if it follows down the road that I feel it's taking it will become insufferable to me.

Part of liking an online comic (or any writing in general) is hoping that certain things will happen, if they don't, well, I do have the option of not reading it anymore. I would be put-off by this comic if Joyce becomes an athiest simply because everyone (in my view) is a caricature of a Christian stereotype in this universe.

*Should note that obviously Divergent is a different thing altogether, I just didn't like the "coming of age" aspect with obvious social stereotypes involved.

Kugai · « **Reply #2066 on:** 26 Jan 2016, 22:30 »

Oh PLEASE don't let him be a slightly saner version of Ross

Or a slightly nutter version of Jake Morgandorffer

BenRG · « **Reply #2067 on:** 27 Jan 2016, 01:51 »

Hank Brown does have a point. The rate of digitisation of all walks of life so that computer access has replaced traditionally paper-based and even human-facing applications is beginning to bewilder me too.

Willis draws Joyce's emotions so well. It's so very clear that she loves her father and that he is her rock in what is an increasingly unstable and unpredictable world. I just hope that he is able to live up to what his daughter needs him to be right now.

Neko_Ali · « **Reply #2068 on:** 27 Jan 2016, 08:06 »

Quote from: explicit on 26 Jan 2016, 21:18

Same reason I hated "Divergent"*. When a point is being made in a seemingly lazy fashion, it is a turn off. Every significant Christian in this comic - besides Joyce - is shown to be overly flawed, with seemingly little objectivity (even with Joyce, shown to be aggravatingly naive at best).

What you are seeing is what many/most other groups experience. Only the negative examples get brought up to light, while the calmer, more reasonable people who share the same trait are ignored. See also: All black people are criminals, all Mexicans are lazy, all gay men are flamboyant poofs, all lesbian women are super butch man haters. Yes, in some cases those stereotypes are true. But in the vast majority of cases, they are not. Yet they get a disproportionate amount of attention.

When you look at the comic, how many really bad Christians are there? Ross and Mary. Joyce's mom, maybe and to a lesser degree her dad. But both Joyce's and Becky's family are part of the same very strict interpretation of Christianity, not a representative of the wider group. Mary just seems to be an unpleasant person who happens to be Christian, stridently so. But according to averages, a significant portion of the cast was probably brought up in a Christian environment and is a believer to some extent or another. The only stated non-Christian in the cast I'm familiar with is Dorothy. For the most part, the rest hasn't really talked about their religion.

So when you see just a few nasty characters who are Christian and you are assuming every Christian in the comic is like them, you are just falling into the trap so many others do, because the average Christians go un-remarked on. They are just... average, and there. That's not the comic having an anti-Christian message, that's just the way life works.

bhtooefr · « **Reply #2069 on:** 27 Jan 2016, 08:22 »

And, I mean, Sierra and Becky are present as examples of good people who are Christian.

Masterpiece · « **Reply #2070 on:** 27 Jan 2016, 09:00 »

I could use the same text neko_ali wrote and replace Christians in Dumbing of Age with Turkish people in Germany (the minority I'm a part of). It's always the bad examples that are remembered.

retrosteve · « **Reply #2071 on:** 27 Jan 2016, 10:28 »

Quote from: explicit on 26 Jan 2016, 21:18

Every significant Christian in this comic - besides Joyce - is shown to be overly flawed, with seemingly little objectivity (even with Joyce, shown to be aggravatingly naive at best).

... everyone (in my view) is a caricature of a Christian stereotype in this universe.

Okay, Willis has warned you with the title that it's a coming of age story. He's also warned you on page one that Joyce is his avatar, and that this will be, in part, a fictionalized account of how he stopped being a fundamentalist Christian. So to the extent that this is a turnoff, you're in the wrong place.

Now as for his laziness and stereotyping, I'd disagree. First, nearly everyone in the comic (notably not Dorothy or Ethan) is a Christian of some type, and everyone is flawed to some degree. The fundamentalists are mostly the parents, but they're by no means similar to each other, either. Toedad is one-note and violent. Joyce's mom is just as fundamentalist but more nuanced. Hank is a prematurely grumpy old man and more moderate, wanting the best for his children and probably open to reason. Mary is just an asshole who happens to be a fundie as well. Blaine is a domineering asshole with no need for religion as an excuse.

I don't think his portrayal is lazy. If he were lazy, they'd all react about the same way to atheists and gays, which they don't. I think it's likely to be quite realistic based on Willis's actual upbringing and coming of age, and his ideas about what people are like. That's authentic.

If you're looking for the reasonable, good-hearted fundamentalist with the temperament of the Dalai Lama, and you haven't found her yet, maybe Mr. Willis just hasn't met that person yet.

94ssd · « **Reply #2072 on:** 27 Jan 2016, 10:39 »

Quote from: explicit on 26 Jan 2016, 21:18

Every significant Christian in this comic - besides Joyce - is shown to be overly flawed

Every significant character, atheist, Christian, and Jewish, is severely flawed. As are real people. It's a slice of life comic about the struggles of being a college student, not Leave it to Beaver.

Kugai · « **Reply #2073 on:** 27 Jan 2016, 14:20 »

ChaoSera · « **Reply #2074 on:** 28 Jan 2016, 00:28 »

Oh come on Becky. How can you possibly think this was a good idea?

BenRG · « **Reply #2075 on:** 28 Jan 2016, 01:27 »

So here comes the challenge: Just how desperate is Joyce to ‘go home again’ and does Becky have a place in that comforting space? Additionally, just how far does Hank’s tolerance go with his daughter’s friends? Particularly one with the historical baggage that Becky brings with her?

Yes, there is a thing called ‘tact’. A mature adult might ponder whether Mr Brown would want to see her. She might consider whether her presence might be an aggravating factor in what already promises to be an emotionally-tense and fraught reunion. Of course, Becky isn’t a mature adult, is she? She’s an eighteen-year-old girl and expecting her to act with the deliberation of someone twice her age is irrational. That’s putting aside the fact that, if you bother to read the archives, ‘tact’ and ‘deliberation’ are about as far from Becky’s behavioural norms as you can imagine. What she did is, in fact, quintessential Becky.

So, those who criticise Becky here, are actually criticising Willis for not writing her OOC for the strip.

Yes, this is going to be awkward. Furthermore, it is important from a narrative perspective as it will probably set the tone for Joyce’s time at home. How willing will Joyce's family be to accept the changes Joyce has made in her life and perceptions? What pressures might they put on her? What demands might they make of her? The answer to a lot of those questions will at least be outlined by how Hank reacts here.

Quote from: ChaoSera on 28 Jan 2016, 00:28

Oh come on Becky. How can you possibly think this was a good idea?

As I've already said, 'think' and 'Becky' are not normally concepts that go together.

Method of Madness · « **Reply #2076 on:** 28 Jan 2016, 11:24 »

Wait, wasn't it established that Becky was joining Joyce for the weekend?

Welu · « **Reply #2077 on:** 28 Jan 2016, 11:46 »

Becky and Joyce may have decided that, but we don't know how much it was discussed with Joyce's parents. Also maybe seeing Becky suddenly at the college might have caught Joyce's dad off guard.

Kugai · « **Reply #2078 on:** 28 Jan 2016, 12:48 »

*Facepalm*

Nice moves there Becky

Gladstone · « **Reply #2079 on:** 28 Jan 2016, 21:21 »

Huh. I thought both of Joyce's parents were unpleasant and intolerant? Wasn't her dad the one who raised a stink over Dorothy being an atheist? Or was it just her mom? I guess I need to reread that Parents' Day storyline...

cesium133 · « **Reply #2080 on:** 28 Jan 2016, 21:25 »

IIRC, her mom was the one who raised a stink and her dad went along with it. Then later when Joyce stood up to them, it was her dad who accepted it while her mom just quietly looked pissed off.

ChaoSera · « **Reply #2081 on:** 28 Jan 2016, 23:33 »

Well, that went better than expected.

BenRG · « **Reply #2082 on:** 28 Jan 2016, 23:41 »

Quote from: Gladstone on 28 Jan 2016, 21:21

Huh. I thought both of Joyce's parents were unpleasant and intolerant? Wasn't her dad the one who raised a stink over Dorothy being an atheist? Or was it just her mom? I guess I need to reread that Parents' Day storyline...

This is a largely-groundless gut feeling on my part but I'm wondering how much of that 'prayer' was for Carol's benefit. I think that she is the more radical of the two and Hank puts on displays like this to keep the peace and make her feel as if he is reigning in their children.

That doesn't make him any less culturally conservative and I suspect that he is only tolerating Becky for Joyce's sake and to prove to himself that he is not Ross McIntyre.

Method of Madness · « **Reply #2083 on:** 29 Jan 2016, 02:51 »

I think I like Joyce's dad. I hope Willis doesn't decide to fuck that up.

Kugai · « **Reply #2084 on:** 29 Jan 2016, 11:30 »

Hope so too.

It's gonna be bad enough when we get to meet Joyces Mom and Becky drops the bombshell on both of them she's gay.

cesium133 · « **Reply #2085 on:** 29 Jan 2016, 11:34 »

They already know that Becky is gay.

Kugai · « **Reply #2086 on:** 29 Jan 2016, 11:43 »

Oh.

OK, forgotten about that.

Method of Madness · « **Reply #2087 on:** 30 Jan 2016, 06:46 »

Yay Joyce's dad.

retrosteve · « **Reply #2088 on:** 30 Jan 2016, 08:18 »

Quoting myself, speaking to explicit:

Quote from: retrosteve on 27 Jan 2016, 10:28

If you're looking for the reasonable, good-hearted fundamentalist with the temperament of the Dalai Lama, and you haven't found her yet, maybe Mr. Willis just hasn't met that person yet.

... and now maybe we've met him. http://www.dumbingofage.com/2016/comic/book-6/02-that-perfect-girl/humility/#comment

Kugai · « **Reply #2089 on:** 30 Jan 2016, 12:14 »

Time shall tell, but so far he seems to be doing OK.

Gladstone · « **Reply #2090 on:** 30 Jan 2016, 23:28 »

Next comic: Amber hears a screech of tires, looks out the window just in time to see an unfamiliar car peel out of the parking lot, Becky in the passenger seat just barely hanging on for dear life.

“Fuck, AGAIN?!”

BenRG · « **Reply #2091 on:** 31 Jan 2016, 00:23 »

So, Joyce is driving for the first time? Countdown to her first ticket...

I can already see a disbelieving Dorothy and a grimly approving Sal watching the live News Copter footage of a convoy of about twenty Indiana State Highway Patrol cars following a fast-moving and erratically swerving Brown family car down the freeway. Inside, unaware of the fuss, Joyce and Becky are arguing over which mile-marker Joyce needs to turn off onto the local roads and Hank is sleeping the peaceful sleep of the obliviously righteous.

Next week is either going to be a skip, a POV swap or a whole week of slapstick strips.

Kugai · « **Reply #2092 on:** 31 Jan 2016, 12:11 »

It could be worse, it could be Becky behind the wheel

cesium133 · « **Reply #2093 on:** 31 Jan 2016, 12:43 »

Again!

Kugai · « **Reply #2094 on:** 31 Jan 2016, 18:31 »

To be fair, she wasn't entirely in control in that situation.

Kugai · « **Reply #2095 on:** 01 Feb 2016, 13:26 »

Dawwwwwwww

ThePerilsOfDan · « **Reply #2096 on:** 01 Feb 2016, 15:30 »

Quote from: Gladstone on 30 Jan 2016, 23:28

Next comic: Amber hears a screech of tires, looks out the window just in time to see an unfamiliar car peel out of the parking lot, Becky in the passenger seat just barely hanging on for dear life.

“Fuck, AGAIN?!”

Buwhahahahahaha, I never even thought about that!! Gold, Jerry, this is gold!!

chaospersonified · « **Reply #2097 on:** 01 Feb 2016, 21:35 »

Oh, Walky, getting his personality simplified to a blurb that puts pressure on him to act one way. I feel you, man.

BenRG · « **Reply #2098 on:** 01 Feb 2016, 23:48 »

The way Dorothy defines her relationship with Walky worries me for some reason. I think that it's how she expects him to be dumb comic relief that irks me.

chaospersonified · « **Reply #2099 on:** 02 Feb 2016, 13:24 »

Quote from: BenRG on 01 Feb 2016, 23:48

The way Dorothy defines her relationship with Walky worries me for some reason. I think that it's how she expects him to be dumb comic relief that irks me.

Because it's damn near de-humanizing to Walky, that's why it's worrying. Now that Walky knows that's how she sees him, it's that much worse. Now he's pressured to be that 'happy, goofy boy,' which is difficult sometimes, I can tell you. He can't go to her with worries about his grades because that's not what she wants/needs him to be.

THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

Author Topic: Damn you, Willis! (Dumbing of Age) (Read 522313 times)