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[bhtooefr]

Plenty of grid cities are just fine for walking, and many east coast cities were designed for it.

[explicit]

My point is just that they're car-centric first and foremost, not that you can't walk at all in them. NYC is fine for walking and transit.

[bhtooefr]

They've been converted to be car-centric (or had their core surrounded by car-centric suburbs), but a lot of them predate the car by quite a lot.

[Neko_Ali]

The problem with walking cities isn't really the grid system, but the zoning system. Walking friendly cities have mixed purpose areas, where anywhere you find residences  you will also find a variety of shops and places to work. Usually with some sort of public transport system to get from area to area, making the need for personal cars minimal. The US is very fond of zoning by usage though. So unless you happen to live within close distance of a commercial zone, or within an apartment complex in a downtown mixed use zone (both of which command much higher rents and costs of living than most residential zones) then you could be up to several miles away from any kind of business.

[Zebediah]

Really, our cities just aren't built for public trans or walking. The only city I can think of that's not built on a grid is Boston, but that's mostly just because it was built up with no plan 100's of years ago.

Boston's streets actually make perfect sense if you take into account the fact that they were built to avoid geographic obstacles that are largely no longer there. A lot of area that was formerly water has been filled in to make new land (which is why we have a neighborhood called the "Back Bay" - it actually was a bay a couple of hundred years ago.) And some formerly pretty steep hills have been completely leveled to provide the fill dirt for that new land.

I'll have to see if I can find a map of where Boston's shoreline was 300 years ago compared to where it is today. It's a dramatic difference.

Edit - here we go. It's a pretty crappy gif but it shows you what I'm talking about:


More info, for anyone who's interested in the subject (recognizing that not everyone is as big a history geek as I am): http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/fa267/bos_fill.html

[explicit]

That's actually really cool, I love geographic history. I learned stuff today

[Kugai]

My own City, Wellington (and, to a lesser extent, the Hutt Valley where I live which is for the most part, flat) has it's Transportation issues, not the least of which is the fact that the Wellington City itself is, for the most part, hilly.

We have a very good Public Transport system compared to our big cousin up north, but there are issues due to the layout of the city itself, including narrow streets in some of the Hill Suburbs.

There is a lot of Reclaimed Land along the central city Waterfront, and a good portion of the flatter parts of the central City itself are built on Reclamed Land. The main Road/Rail link out to the Hutt Valley actually runs along land that was both thrust up during the last big Quake here and Reclaimed to expand and widen it.





Just to give you a fair idea of just how MUCH Reclaimed Land there is here, brought about by both natural and man-made means, this is a Computer Image made of Wellington before the great Horowhenua Quake in the 15th Century that, for the most part, uplifted a major portion of the land that Wellington City now sits on.

[Boomslang]

Is it wrong of me to think that the most awesome part of your post was that you live in a place called the Hutt Valley?

[Storel]

My own City, Wellington (and, to a lesser extent, the Hutt Valley where I live which is for the most part, flat) has it's Transportation issues, not the least of which is the fact that the Wellington City itself is, for the most part, hilly.

San Francisco has that problem, too. That's why we're one of the few places that has electric trolley buses on some lines -- they can get up hills better than diesel buses, especially when fully packed with passengers, and they don't require as much infrastructure as streetcars/light rail systems: no tracks to lay.

[Kugai]

And the interesting thing here Storel is that we had Trams here right up to the Postwar Period, when we traded them in for Buses.  Electric Trolley Buses have been a fixture here as well as Diesel Buses for as long as we have had Buses.

Now here's the kicker

Wellington City Council, which runs the Inner City Buses, has, in its infinite wisdom, decided to do away with the Electric Trolley Buses and replace its entire fleet with Diesel Buses.

[Kugai]

Is it wrong of me to think that the most awesome part of your post was that you live in a place called the Hutt Valley?

Nope 

The Hutt Valley is the flat land area you see in the top of the second image looking directly up from the top end of 'Island' of land called Motukairangi, directly across the harbour.

The small Island in the middle of the harbour is known as Soams Island and has been used as everything from a defensible Pa sight by the local Maori in Pre-European times to a Qurantine Island for people or animals, a Prison Camp for 'Illegals' during both World Wars right up to now where it's a Wildlife Sanctuary and Restricted Access Tourist Spot.

[Aziraphale]

Isn't all that "made" land a bit worrisome, given earthquake concerns and whatnot?

[Kugai]

It is, especially all the reclaimed land around the Waterfront and the main Container Terminal which was done in the late 1960's and early 1970's

Te Papa, the National Museum Of New Zealand actually sits on Reclaimed Land, and the construction took several years as they actually had to pound the land down and drive deep piles in to stableise the land it sits on.  It was built with the latest in Earthquake Strengthening Technology, though I will note, that that was State Of The Art for when it was built, which was in the mid to late 1990's.

Parliament Buildings and The Beehive, which underwent a massive multimillion dollar Earthquake Refit in the late 80's, early 90's is now considered to be at risk from a major quake, the reassessment taking place in light of the events in Christchurch.

[Aziraphale]

I saw something on TV a while back where a museum -- I think in San Francisco -- was retrofitted with a motion/vibration damping system that would allow the building to move as a unit, protecting it from the shaking of an earthquake. Problem is, I'd assume that something like that would require a bedrock foundation. I know that NYC got a bit of a wake-up call a few years back when an earthquake hit Virginia that could be felt up this way... a stronger quake (and there are fault lines in the tri-state area, even if they're not anywhere near as active as the ones on the Pacific Rim) would absolutely raise hell with Battery Park and other parts of the city that're basically built on sand.

[Storel]

Now here's the kicker

Wellington City Council, which runs the Inner City Buses, has, in its infinite wisdom, decided to do away with the Electric Trolley Buses and replace its entire fleet with Diesel Buses.

Because they've decided to level all the hills and use them for landfill/"made land"? Brilliant!

Oh, they're not leveling all the hills?  Brilliant...

[ankhtahr]

I probably live in one of the most artificially designed cities in Germany. Karlsruhe's layout is a little bit similar to Washington DC

[pwhodges]

I like Karlsruhe; my son lived there for a while (he's back in Marbach now). 

It's also home to the best microphone manufacturer of all (Schoeps), and has a well above average opera house.

[Kugai]

Now here's the kicker

Wellington City Council, which runs the Inner City Buses, has, in its infinite wisdom, decided to do away with the Electric Trolley Buses and replace its entire fleet with Diesel Buses.

Because they've decided to level all the hills and use them for landfill/"made land"? Brilliant!

Oh, they're not leveling all the hills?  Brilliant...

Whaddaya expect, they're Politicians!

[gprimr1]

Based on where QC is set, it is far from an over representation of homosexuality. Real life Northampton is very much like it's portrayed in the comics. Lots of diversity of all kinds.

[tacroy]

Based on where QC is set, it is far from an over representation of homosexuality. Real life Northampton is very much like it's portrayed in the comics. Lots of diversity of all kinds.

While I don't agree with all of the OP's points (and will admit to not having followed the entire thread since then), it does touch on a similar thought I had.

I love the comic and have been reading since a few months after launch (my forum registration is on page 6, of over a hundred), but QC especially in the past year or two, has become not just inclusive but exhaustively inclusive.  Off the top of my head, the comic has: gay parents, a sex worker, a lesbian relationship (of which one partner is bi), an interracial relationship, a trans person, a prominent suicide, a person with significant (if often joked about) mental health issues, several people in financial distress, workplace equality issues (albeit addressed through an android), and now, presumably, an addict.  Each of these has had fairly significant plot time.

There's nothing wrong with this (I'd agree with the above quoted that it is fairly reflective of the actual Northampton), but at times this effort to give everyone screen time makes the plot arcs somewhat predictable.  Claire and Marten were perhaps the strongest example of this for me, as their relationship felt telegraphed more or less from the moment she came out.

[gprimr1]

I can see what your saying. Honestly, I think those are all kinds of people you'd meet in real life Northampton (there are strip clubs down the road in Hoyloke and Springfield) and I think it all fits with stuff I experienced living there.

But Northampton is just that, a liberal college town  in a liberal state in a liberal part of the country. The cast and stories fit what you would expect there. If QC were set in Odessa Texas, it would be a different story.

[explicit]

I've never been even though I only live an hour away from Northampton. But by all accounts from people I know who've been there it's portrayed pretty accurately. Kinda like a watered down version of Portland.

[jwhouk]

I think you would get derision from Marten if you described NoHam as "Portland Lite".

[explicit]

I should go myself one of these days and find out. Mine as well catch a UMASS game or something.

[Orkboy]

I think you would get derision from Marten if you described NoHam as "Portland Lite".

I don't know why, but the abbreviation "NoHam" is absurdly funny to me. 

[explicit]

It's kosher

[TRVA123]

I love the comic and have been reading since a few months after launch (my forum registration is on page 6, of over a hundred), but QC especially in the past year or two, has become not just inclusive but exhaustively inclusive.  Off the top of my head, the comic has: gay parents, a sex worker, a lesbian relationship (of which one partner is bi), an interracial relationship, a trans person, a prominent suicide, a person with significant (if often joked about) mental health issues, several people in financial distress, workplace equality issues (albeit addressed through an android), and now, presumably, an addict.  Each of these has had fairly significant plot time.

Idk, I mean, I hail from the midwest (near a city, but still not a liberal paradise, by any means) and every thing you mentioned are present in my life.

The thing is that a lot of these are things that people don't talk about. You probably know a few gay people, you probably know someone who has been/is a sex worker, you probably know someone who had a close relative commit suicide, someone who is an alcoholic/addict, you definitely know someone suffering from depression, and people who are poor. These are just things that aren't immediately visible. If someone doesn't choose to share those details with you, you probably won't be aware that those things are going on.

[Thrillho]

I love the comic and have been reading since a few months after launch (my forum registration is on page 6, of over a hundred), but QC especially in the past year or two, has become not just inclusive but exhaustively inclusive.  Off the top of my head, the comic has: gay parents, a sex worker, a lesbian relationship (of which one partner is bi), an interracial relationship, a trans person, a prominent suicide, a person with significant (if often joked about) mental health issues, several people in financial distress, workplace equality issues (albeit addressed through an android), and now, presumably, an addict.  Each of these has had fairly significant plot time.

Idk, I mean, I hail from the midwest (near a city, but still not a liberal paradise, by any means) and every thing you mentioned are present in my life.

The thing is that a lot of these are things that people don't talk about. You probably know a few gay people, you probably know someone who has been/is a sex worker, you probably know someone who had a close relative commit suicide, someone who is an alcoholic/addict, you definitely know someone suffering from depression, and people who are poor. These are just things that aren't immediately visible. If someone doesn't choose to share those details with you, you probably won't be aware that those things are going on.

Also, the majority of these things are generally massively under-represented in the media. If nothing else QC is doing a bit of redressing the balance.

[Neko_Ali]

I really don't even see it as redressing a balance. Jeph just writes things as they are. I don't see any kind of agenda to his writing. The closest I can think of was his wanting to make sure he wrote Claire's story right (which I think he has). But yeah... All of those things being talked about? Been around them for most of my life. I think everyone has to some degree or another. The only question is how aware of it they are.

[gprimr1]

I think Clare's story got off a little easy. That was the closest I've ever come to wondering if Jeff has an agenda.

I wouldn't mind seeing a story arc were a character has some trouble with acceptance.

[TRVA123]

To be fair, Claire is not out to everyone in the cast. In fact, I think only 4 characters know about her; Marten, Emily, Claire mom, and Clinton.

There could be more drama ahead, but I think Jeph is focused on a different plot thread at the moment.

[Boomslang]

Additionally, Claire is clearly, based on character's reactions in comic, visually a woman. A lot of the trans issues I've seen happen to folks around me have at least partially involved the fact the trans person was not, in appearance, clearly their internal gender. Even people who aren't biased against transgender folks can have difficulty when dealing with strangers who are trans, and this is magnified when there is confusion as to whether someone is, in fact, trans. Obviously it gets worse when dealing with people who are biased (as usual). But all of that is predicated on appearance. If someone truly appears to be the gender they consider themselves, they're going to encounter very little social friction in comparison to someone who is attempting to overcome a conflict between the two.

Because Claire seems to be female to the typical person, she's simply not going to deal with as much conflict in her typical life, and since she's successfully maintained that information amongst close friends, it's hard to see how she would be treated any differently than a woman who wasn't trans by anyone around her. I could easily see folks being jealous of how 'easy' her transition has been compared to their own (that might well have been expressed in the forum already and I simply missed the whole shebang).

[Neko_Ali]

Honestly, as a trans woman and someone who reads a lot of trans focused stories, I am happy with Claire's story. A lot of other stories with trans main characters focus on the troubles and trials of being transgender in a society that looks down on us. And those are fine, those are stories that need to be tell. However they can get pretty depressing. Here we have a character who transitioned early and is accepted without question by her peers. That's a nice, positive story. And honestly those are stories that I would like to see more of, they are pretty rare. Stories where being trans is just one aspect of their character, rather than the driving force behind most of the plot lines. The troubles of being a transgender person haven't been avoided... Claire and Clinton's discussions about her safety. Claire and Marten talking about it when she first came out, and then when they started dating. I find that both the importance of her being trans is appropriate to the tone of the comic and the character.

[Aziraphale]

I think Clare's story got off a little easy. That was the closest I've ever come to wondering if Jeff has an agenda.

I wouldn't mind seeing a story arc were a character has some trouble with acceptance.

Sometimes the challenges in storytelling -- as well as the better, more nuanced characters -- come when you play against those expectations, though. As Neko mentions, there are plenty of stories day to day (including the four trans* individuals murdered so far in 2015 just in the US, incidentally) about the difficulties of transitioning and being accepted. While I assume (I can't speak from experience on this one) that both of those things are significant concerns to many, if not most, trans people, I would also assume that trans individuals' inner lives and their outer manifestations are so much more than that. I don't know that the decision thus far to mostly elide the transition part of Claire's story represents an "agenda" as such, but I think it actually leaves the door further open to allowing Claire to shine for all that she is, and I'd posit that her trans-ness (the same as Neko's or anyone else's, if I may be so bold) is just one small piece of a much larger and more variegated puzzle.

[DSL]

I think Clare's story got off a little easy. That was the closest I've ever come to wondering if Jeff has an agenda.

I wouldn't mind seeing a story arc were a character has some trouble with acceptance.

Well, there's May.
As to Claire, I like the fact that her trans* status isn't the be-all and end-all of her character. Fascinating take on the subject came from TV writer David Gerrold (the Star Trek Tribble guy) who made the case for adjectives, not nouns: Someone isblack, is gay, is whatever instead of a black, a gay, a whatever. Subtle, but it slides in the idea that a person's given characteristic isn't always the most important characteristic.

As for an "agenda," I take at face value what Jeph said is his agenda: People are not perfect, they will screw up, no one is right or wrong all the time, and they should try to get along anyway.

[Is it cold in here?]

Just so. The Creator has been crystal clear about this.

It's idiotic bullshit like this that makes me tell people in the real world what a shitheap this forum is. Everybody's got an agenda and they're all trying to attach it to the comics.

For future reference, if you're trying to divine some overarching moral standpoint from my comic: the moral of my comic is that people should try to be nice to each other.

[Kugai]

And that is all that needs to be said about that.

[Blackbird]

QC especially in the past year or two, has become not just inclusive but exhaustively inclusive.

As a person of colour, I have to disagree. Emily is there to echo the internet's favourite stereotype of "Japanese people are weird", and Dale is ambiguously brown but otherwise a prototypical gamer dork.  Neither of them does much to capture the experience of being nonwhite in a largely white community.

[hedgie]

I'm white, so obviously, there's no way I've experience in dealing with such things personally, so I only have observation and speculation to rely on </disclaimer>

I don't know the demographics in the North Hampton area, so my only familiarity with University towns in California could potentially apply, and various flavours of Asian tend to be over-represented, compared to state demographics as a whole, whilst those of African or Latino ancestry are under-represented amongst the same.  I don't *think* that Jeph is deliberately white-washing the comic, but yeah, I think that your points stand, even if it's non-intentional (and for bonus points, Emily also fits the "nerdy Asian" stereotype).  If the NH (no, not that one) fits better with the comic's demographic, I wouldn't have much concern, myself, since it fits the world, I don't think it'd be as bothersome.   Hell, there are more robots near the main cast than non-white characters, and they have shown more development, aside from the exceptions of Tai, and Padma's brief run.

I hope that both Emily and Dale get more development, especially since Emily is close enough to Claire that she felt comfortable coming-out to her, and Marigold being close to the main cast, and both being with Dale and him working at CoD, that he'll get more development. 

[Zebediah]

Actually, yes, Massachusetts as a whole is very white compared to much of the rest of the US. Having lived in North Carolina until three years ago, I found the difference quite jarring - I never lived in a town that was less than 30% black until I moved to Massachusetts. Durham NC, where I lived before I moved, has no racial majority. Whereas Arlington is - well, let me quote Wikipedia here: "83.6% White, 2.3% African American, 0.1% Native American, 8.3% Asian, 0.4% from other races, and 2.1% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 3.3% of the population." And believe it or not, Northampton is even whiter - 87.7%, to be exact.

So yeah, if you're used to a lot of diversity, QC may seem whitewashed. But it's actually not out of line with the real-world demographics of the area.

[cesium133]

Out of curiosity I looked up some towns around the area where I grew up...

The racial makeup of the town was 98.1% White, 0.3% African American, 0.2% Asian, and 1.4% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 0.5% of the population.

Yup, that sounds about like Lonaconing.

edit -- there's another town further down the creek (Luke) that Wikipedia says is 100.0% white, but that's cheating a little because there are only 18 people in that town.

[Emperor Norton]

I grew up in an area that is about 60% white, 33% black, with a touch of everything else. I remember when one of my friends I grew up with, went to University at Rhodes College in Memphis, he said one of his classmates from up in the New England area (but not from a major city) was amazed at "how many blacks were in the school." There were like, maybe 100, in a college that has about 2k students. My friend was just like "wut"?

[hedgie]

I'd say that San Francisco was, in terms of numbers, SF was the most diverse city that I have lived in, but there was a *lot* of self-segregation along ethnic lines, largely due to prior racism/classism.  Where I lived was largely Chinese, with plenty of of Irish, then "everyone else" mixed in, I cross the park, and it's more Eastern Europeans and Vietnamese.  I take a couple of tram lines, and suddenly, it's largely Mexican, white bohemians, and Irish forced out of one of their enclaves due to gentrification.  'Tis rather sad that our species still hasn't overcome the sort of tribalist attitudes that have killed/hurt so many.

[explicit]

I grew up in an area that is about 60% white, 33% black, with a touch of everything else. I remember when one of my friends I grew up with, went to University at Rhodes College in Memphis, he said one of his classmates from up in the New England area (but not from a major city) was amazed at "how many blacks were in the school." There were like, maybe 100, in a college that has about 2k students. My friend was just like "wut"?

That's odd, all my friends where I went to school in NE are black. Then again, I guess I'm the odd one seeing as my town is about 5% black. The cities are still majority black though.

[Zebediah]

The cities are still majority black though.

Cities are majority black? In New England? Are we talking about the same New England? Because here are some numbers:

Hartford CT      38.7% African-American
Bridgeport CT      34.6% African-American
Boston MA      27.3% African-American
Springfield MA       22.3% African-American
Providence RI      16% African-American
Portland ME      7.1% African-American
Manchester NH      4.1% African-American
Burlington VT      3.5% African-American

In fact, I couldn't find a single municipality in all of New England with a majority black population.

[zmeiat_joro]

Does QC seem like something from another planet to non-US readers, or are most of the themes universal?

I live in Sofia, Bulgaria. Marten's attitudes and friend circle seem similar to mine, but, as Akima said, "then something will come along to remind me of how intensely foreign America is, in a manner that is almost jarring in contrast." And except that there's too few LGBT people in the cast compared.

[Blackbird]

I do want to clarify that I don't think QC should have a racially diverse cast or anything.  It's set in a town that's 87% white in the real world, and its rare to find fully racially-integrated social circles even in more racially diverse areas anyway.   Too much diversity would ring false.   I brought up the lack of racial diversity as just one of the bigger examples of how this comic isn't as inclusive as some people claim (and it's the one that sticks out to me for obvious, selfish reasons).  It's neither good nor bad, it just is. 

[Neko_Ali]

So this has brought me some curiosity... Atlanta, where I live has a racial demographics of 54% African American, 36% White. Seems about right to me, though the area I live in has a much higher percentage of black people (My room mate and I are the only white folk in several blocks, at least). Other areas have much heavier white, Hispanic or Korean presences.

The town where I was born however shows 92% white, 7% Hispanic and 1% African American. If anything, it seems they've got more non-white people in since I moved away... It wasn't until I moved to another state when I was 10 years old that I met a person of color...

Among my social circles (specifically the gamer circles I hang around locally) it's pretty rare to see anyone non-white. I know more female gamers than black gamers in the area...

So yeah, personal anecdotes out of the way, I would say Jeph hits racial dynamics pretty square on. Most of the cast is white, enough that those who aren't tend to stick out more. But nobody really seems to care. I know that Jeph  hasn't shown a lot of discrimination in the comic... and it's usually aimed at the robot cast. I wouldn't expect that anybody in the cast would have cared about Marten and Padma dating, or Marigold and Dale. I might have my opinions on that colored by where I live though... Atlanta is a strange blue dot in a very red state. There are still a lot of people around here that take a dim, sometimes violent view on 'race mixing'. Dora and Tai I think are a slightly different case. Tai is described by others as a 'non-descript brown' which could pass off as just a dark tan. And honestly, if people were going to be objecting about their relationship it would probably be more likely because they are the same sex.

Not that I want to have Jeph make the Klan show up or have nasty slurs spray painted on someone's door here.. Enough of that in real life thank you.

[gprimr1]

I am white, and I grew up in an area that was

64% Black
19% White
4% Asian
8% Other


I would say Jeff is pretty much on for Northampton.

[Kugai]

In the area I live it's a mixed population

European is a fair majority of the population
Samoan and various Pacific Island groups
Maori, but that appears to be a smaller percentage of the population than you'd think
Chinese, but they are also a small population
Indian and Pakistani  (And the old joke holds true here, they run the local Dairys and Minimarket)
Vietnamese, but they also are a VERY small population demographic
Somali - this has been a growth population in the last decade or so with Refugees coming into the community.