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QC and the Bechdel test

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bhtooefr:

--- Quote from: ReindeerFlotilla on 09 Mar 2015, 04:03 ---Then we could have a lively debate about whether Tai and Claire talking about Dora passes the Bechdel Test and--if it does--is it feminist (yes and yes, of course, but that's because I said so and I'm always right).

--- End quote ---

To pass the Bechdel test, a work must:

* Have at least two women in it
* Who talk to each other
* About something besides a manThere's only one interpretation of a scene of Tai and Claire talking about Dora that doesn't pass the Bechdel test, and it's the transphobic one, which isn't valid.

Now, whether it counts as feminist is something that might actually be a legitimate debate, and likely depends on the content of the discussion. I could see Tai saying something misogynist in frustration, for instance.

TheCaffeinatedPanda:
1. I really want a fedora...

2. By the gods, the Bechdel test pisses me off. Twilight passes it, for gods' sake.

3. I want Marten to go tell Dora off, but at the same time, I recognise that maaaaaaybe that wouldn't be the best idea. Maybe in reality he should have stayed or said something, but his reaction was classic QC, and I loved this strip for it.

ReindeerFlotilla:

--- Quote from: bhtooefr on 09 Mar 2015, 04:35 ---To pass the Bechdel test, a work must:

* Have at least two women in it
* Who talk to each other
* About something besides a manThere's only one interpretation of a scene of Tai and Claire talking about Dora that doesn't pass the Bechdel test, and it's the transphobic one, which isn't valid.

Now, whether it counts as feminist is something that might actually be a legitimate debate, and likely depends on the content of the discussion. I could see Tai saying something misogynist in frustration, for instance.

--- End quote ---

Do you think legitimacy defines what is debatable? Because, if adopting a discriminatory viewpoint actually prevented on from engaging in debate, the Republican party would implode, and there wouldn't actually be a Bechdel Test, because it would never have been necessary. Additionally, you don't have to be transphobic to debate whether the scenario would pass the test. You just have to adopt a view point one what was meant by woman, verse what Bechdel was trying to illustrate. It's sort of like the King-Burwell case, and "what did Congress mean by 'the Exchange.'" I can see a lot of different logical frameworks that one can construct to argue that if a situation isn't strict, it isn't playing by the test's rules. Which then leads into arguments about what strict means.

They'd all be wrong, but that's me not even trying. I imagine someone with strong belief in a particular point of view could invoke something not so easily dismissed.

It's also been my experience that feminism embraces misogyny rather often. So being mysogynist isn't actually anti-feminist, as paradoxical as that seems. What makes this debatable is that it would be two women talking about 'girly' stuff, which has been the argument advanced against certain fluff flicks that pass the test not being feminist. It's a conflation (which actually exists, but also one I introduced to the subject) of the test and promoting feminism. It depends on one's point of view what it is valuable to talk about, and what is good to be seen talking about. Does the context and framework in which the scenario occurs bear on the evaluation or not?

And, lastly, there was a more than a bit of tongue in cheek going on there. I kind of assumed that, being a story mostly populated by women, QC would have no issue passing the test on a majority of occasions, and that ought to be enough.

BUT...

It occurs to me now, that this is exactly that. An assumption. And brings me, unexpectedly, to the actual purpose of the test: To set an extremely low bar and illustrate how film (and by extension, other fiction formats) fail to clear it. My assumption remains on the side of QC clearing the bar, but there's only one way to be sure...

Schwungrad:
The Bechdel test isn't a valid tool to judge the quality of a particular work, but the sheer amount of works that don't pass it speaks volumes about the limitedness of female roles.

bhtooefr:
Well, I'd say that failing the Bechdel test is a sign that the work definitely doesn't uphold feminist principles. Passing it isn't a sign that it does, but failing it is a sign that it doesn't.

It's kinda like the A+ certification for computer repair. Having it doesn't mean that you know what you're doing, but being unable to get one means that you shouldn't be allowed within 10 feet of a computer and a screwdriver at the same time. (Lots of people who know what they're doing don't have one, though, which is why I said "being unable to get one".)

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