Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
QC and the Bechdel test
ReindeerFlotilla:
--- Quote from: bhtooefr on 09 Mar 2015, 08:04 ---Well, I'd say that failing the Bechdel test is a sign that the work definitely doesn't uphold feminist principles. Passing it isn't a sign that it does, but failing it is a sign that it doesn't.
It's kinda like the A+ certification for computer repair. Having it doesn't mean that you know what you're doing, but being unable to get one means that you shouldn't be allowed within 10 feet of a computer and a screwdriver at the same time. (Lots of people who know what they're doing don't have one, though, which is why I said "being unable to get one".)
--- End quote ---
Pacific Rim.
Not the smartest film ever made, but it inspired the creation of a test claimed by some to be superior to the Bechdel test.
It fails the Bechdel test.
Does Mako Mori fail to uphold feminist principles? Does her role in the film undermine those principles. I'd say no. Avengers might have the same issue, and with less cause (having two major woman characters), yet it is difficult to reduce Black Widow and Maria Hill to eye candy. Nor are they Token (in fact, making Hawkeye the damsel in distress was a nice touch). Black Widow and Agent Hill also play strong roles (strong with depth and impact) in Captain America 2, but I don't think that film manages to pass the test either.
These three movies are failing on technical terms--Pacific Rim, because they didn't hand out many supporting roles to women, the Marvel films because the supporting characters were supporting. But the key point in their favor is that there was nothing in any of the movies (other than branding) that required women play those roles. The real point against them is that they fail to acknowledge that the population of Earth is mostly women.
Taking it to the extreme, you could formulate a film like Cast Away, but change only the main character to a woman and her romantic prospects to men. So long as the plot elements remained the same, the resulting film would certainly be feminist but also fail the test.
The Bechdel test doesn't say anything about the feminist quality of any single film. It can't. It's too simple. As Schwungrad suggests, it does is point out a simple thing to demonstrate a truth (and the three films I chose defy that truth, which is why I picked them): That fiction regularly fails to treat women as people in their own right. Often their personhood elements are contingent upon their relationship to a man. It points out a pervasive misogyny. Defeating that misogyny would only be a start, not a solution.
To circle back to the comic, that's why I'm trying to test my assumption. It's slow going, but as of strip 138, the QC is failing miserably. Part of me wonders if it's even fair to count comics before 500, but it's early going yet. It's an interesting question, to me: can a comic with cast dominated by women manage to pass the test most of the time.
ReindeerFlotilla:
And now for something completely different:
In Bechdel test news QC is still running a strong F. This points out an odd weakness of the test. Several good conversations where two or more women are being people are ruined because they are about music and musicians who are men. I've been liberal here and not taken references to a band, but only points where a conversational arc leads to one or more statements about a person or persons identified as a man or men. Now at 338 and the girls now out number the boys after a long sting of parity.
The strongest arc, so far, was Amanda's drama bomb. However, with Raven working at CoD there has been a sharp up tic in the frequency of passing strips.
More information to follow if I feel like sharing.
Gladstone:
--- Quote from: ReindeerFlotilla on 09 Mar 2015, 20:30 ---In Bechdel test news QC is still running a strong F. This points out an odd weakness of the test. Several good conversations where two or more women are being people are ruined because they are about music and musicians who are men.
--- End quote ---
I always assumed that the third requirement of the Bechdel test merely referred to the men that the two or more named women personally knew; i.e., Dora and Faye talking to each other about Marten was failing (part of) the test, but Dora and Faye talking about male musicians or pop culture figures was fine. But I could be wrong.
ReindeerFlotilla:
I read it as "a law means what it says." Taking the simplest logical interpretation that doesn't contradict itself. Something other than a man is quite a lot. The girls could discuss relativity, but not Einstein, Cosmos but not NDT or Carl Sagan, the Presidency but not any particular President.
Unless there's an author intent somewhere stating that Allison Bechdel meant only men who are characters in the story, I have to go with the rules as written. (Also considered: does "a man" create an out when discussing groups of men? Generally, I say no. The use of the indefinite article is an issue here, but it would also be clumsy to use other phrasing to specify either case. So I default to the most conservative interpretation.)
jheartney:
--- Quote from: ReindeerFlotilla on 09 Mar 2015, 20:57 ---I read it as "a law means what it says." Taking the simplest logical interpretation that doesn't contradict itself. Something other than a man is quite a lot. The girls could discuss relativity, but not Einstein, Cosmos but not NDT or Carl Sagan, the Presidency but not any particular President.
--- End quote ---
I don't believe it's a requirement of the test that the entirety of the conversation be devoid of references to males. The conversation in 279, for example, is clearly about goth fashion, and about if it's intelligent or authentic. The offhand reference to a male as a part of a pair used as an example is secondary. The test is looking for conversation between named female characters that is not "about a man" or men. This conversation is about fashion, not a man or men (except incidentally), so I'd say it passes the test.
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