Comic Discussion > ALICE GROVE

Alice Grove MCDT - May 2015

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mikmaxs:
After some reflection, I think I should add a bit to explain where I'm coming from personally in relation to this whole Jeb thing:

I've been that guy who makes an ass of himself or says something insensitive without thinking. More than once, in fact. I have trouble reading body language and subtext, and can be painfully blunt or obtuse. Subtlety is often lost on me. I could go more into why, but it's not really relevant. This has left me in a lot of situations where my own inept social skills or blindness to the obvious has made me do stupid things.

I've also gotten into a whole hell of a lot of trouble from the backlash of this. And while I don't want to blame the people I got in trouble with (Mostly, with a couple exceptions...) because I had, unintentionally or otherwise, provoked it, that doesn't mean that that I think it was a fair situation. Nine times out of ten like this, if anyone had just taken the time to explain that I was being an idiot, or what was going on, the problem would have been defused in a heartbeat, but instead I've frequently taken a lot of crap over genuine mistakes and misunderstandings. Because of this, as a kid I was (metaphorically) pushed around a lot by figures of authority who should have known better.

I empathize a lot with Jeb.

Meanwhile, Alice (who is supposedly a millenium old and knows everyone in town super well and is a wizard with social interaction,) can't give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

Neko_Ali:
Well, first of all, Alice being a 'wizard with social interaction' made me actually laugh out loud. Of all the things that can be said about here, that's about as opposite from the truth as can be. She's good at reading people, probably. But she absolutely sucks at dealing with them. Her interaction consist of her telling people what to do, generally. Again I say, we are not talking about an interaction of equals here. From Alice's perspective she is dealing with a bunch of children, essentially. She knows she's stronger, better and knows more than every single person in town. She expects people to just listen to her when she says something, because she's sure she knows better. And most people do, out of respect or fear... mostly a mix of both.

Her interaction with Jeb was as polite as that was going to get. He directly challenged her authority in front of others. She took him aside and quietly explained that she could crush him if she chose. And that she had things under control, and he should trust that. Was that the nicest way to go about it? No. But as has been said repeatedly, Alice is not a nice person. But essentially what she did was pull him aside and explain he was being an idiot. Which he was being. She could have just as easily smacked him into the ground the way she did with Gavia. She gave him every opportunity to listen to his friends, and when he didn't she took him aside and dealt with it privately and without violence, if not without the threat of violence.

mikmaxs:

--- Quote ---Well, first of all, Alice being a 'wizard with social interaction' made me actually laugh out loud.
--- End quote ---
I misspoke there, my bad. Rather, she's supposedly a wizard (Or just really experienced or what have you) at understanding how people tick. Not social interaction necessarily, but she allegedly reads and understands people pretty well. (And was able to convince two men who hated each other to become best of friends, also.)


--- Quote --- From Alice's perspective she is dealing with a bunch of children, essentially.
--- End quote ---
THIS IS WHAT MAKES HER ACTIONS SO TERRIBLE. She's talking to a child. Not even a particularly old or mature one. Both in terms of life experience and physical strength, it's like someone in their late thirties (Who exercises a lot) talking to a toddler.


--- Quote --- But essentially what she did was pull him aside and explain he was being an idiot.
--- End quote ---
No. That is not a thing that happened. She did not explain anything, she said that she was smarter, stronger, and better than him and that he should shut up and obey. She gave no reason for why his complaint was invalid or wrong. She didn't explain a damned thing beyond that she was capable of beating the shit out of him.


--- Quote ---She could have just as easily smacked him into the ground the way she did with Gavia. She gave him every opportunity to listen to his friends, and when he didn't she took him aside and dealt with it privately and without violence, if not without the threat of violence.
--- End quote ---
This is also not a thing that happened.
Gavia was an apples and oranges situation. For one, Gavia was already being extremely violent and for two, Gavia was armed with nanotech and is from an entirely different culture. That was still not a meeting of peers, but it didn't have the 'Adult threatening an unruly child' vibe to it.
With Jeb, she barely gave him one opportunity to back down, (Actually less of an opportunity than Gavia had. Gavia was given a direct offer to back down and talk about things reasonably. Jeb was given a vague comment about how Alice knew best.) Furthermore there WASN'Tan opportunity to listen to his friends. Go back and read the comic: By the time his friend warns him, it's too late.



My overall point is that Jeb never had a chance. His objection was a little obtuse and a his presentation a little abrasive, but mostly reasonable: Gavia DID set the town on fire with very little effort a couple weeks prior, causing a lot of damage. It'd be extremely easy for her to do it again if some kids started teasing her and she flipped out again. Alice gave no explanation for why Gavia wouldn't be a threat, she just expected blind faith and total obeisance. (Also, to those saying 'She knows him and it was probably the only way to deal with him'... That's incredibly stupid. You deal with him violently now, then he'll only ever respond to violent threats in the future. You try and explain and help deal with things rationally now, he won't need to be cowed later by threats of physical violence.) This doesn't just make Alice a 'Not nice person' to me, it turns her into a character just shy of being a straight villain.


Furthermore, this annoys me heavily because nearly all of my complaints here could have easily been solved if Jeph hadn't included the two panels at the end of Jeb's introductory comic, where Ardent asks about the Farm Implement. If those two panels had been used instead to give Alice a chance to try and respond reasonably, and for Jeb to ignore his friend's advice and get genuinely aggressive, and THEN we had Alice drag him away... Everything would suddenly work. Alice'd still have a small aggression issue, but she wouldn't be deplorable to me.





With all that said, I want to mention something totally unrelated: The April 9th Comic, 'Kids These Days'. In my opinion, this is the best Alice Grove panel currently available to the public. Not necessarily my favorite, but the best.

(http://www.alicegrove.com/post/115986771824/kids-these-days - Hyperlink for people who don't want to search for it.)

Simply put, I think it's the best because it's structured so damned well. The dialogue moves along the world and lore with important speculation that needs to happen, but by itself is a little dry. We also get to know a bit about nanotech and the world Ardent and Gavia came from. Simultaneously, though, the art and use of the comic style adds a second layer of action to everything we're seeing. The ending is funny, but the joke doesn't take precedence over the actions.
Not to mention, it moves along the plot, since this comic is the inciting incident for everything else that's happened since then. (Going to town, interacting with the locals, etc.)
No space is wasted. Every panel is efficient and well paced. The dialogue serves several purposes. The comic itself serves several purposes. It doesn't waste the update on a joke, it doesn't drag its feet, and it does in one update what most of Alice Grove takes two or three to accomplish.

It's not profoundly great, but it's so incredibly solid and the structure is really good.

In my opinion, while not every update should conform to a strict frame, if more Alice Grove updates were like this one, Alice Grove would be a better comic. In fact, if more plot-based webcomics were like this one, a lot of plot-based webcomics would be a lot better.

Is it cold in here?:

--- Quote ---just shy of being a straight villain

--- End quote ---

Do we know she isn't?

She has done some Mary Worth things for the villagers, but that could be egotism or a community service sentence instead of a matter of good will.

Kugai:
I don't think she's a villain, I think that she's just an old, somewhat grumpy old soul in a young body.  She's found a way to deal with the people of the world she lives in as an immortal (or practically immortal) being, and its worked well for her over the centuries.

Gavia and Ardent are a new wrinkle in her world and she's dealing with it the best way she can.  If she truly were a villain, I have no doubt she would have found a way to quietly rid herself of these two weeks ago (AG Time).

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