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Claire

Dora

Tai

Faye

Hannelore

Veronica

Emily

Momo

Marigold

Cosette

[Omega Entity]

Good morning,

It´s 7:30am over here in Europe and I´m not quite awake yet. So could someone please explain to me what Martens expression "I think I´m gonna need a rain check on tonight" means? I think I can imagine, but there might be implicated meanings that escape me.

Basically, it means "due to unforeseen complications, we need to cancel our plans and reschedule".  I *think* it comes from baseball: since the games are played outdoors, if a game was rained out,  the club would offer "rain checks" to people who'd bought tickets for that game that they could use to come back some other day without having to buy another ticket.

"Rain checks" are also often offered on items that go out of stock during sales in stores.

[rfrank dodelijk]

I think the candy floss unicorns are about to be culled. thank you, mr.jacques.

[Scarblac]

She's been feeling that way about herself since the break up with Angus. Before that really. She has said it in as many words.  And part of that is societal pressure. That you are supposed to always be there for your partner. That putting your needs ahead of your partner's is somehow wrong. But she feels she has failed, and hard. And worse that she is a failure and a fuck up and doesn't see or doesn't want to find a way out of that. So yes, she's been wallowing in self pity as much as cheap bourbon. And until she starts to work on that, she's probably not going to make progress on her other issues.

And now she is forcing Marten to put her needs before his partner's. Can't be an improvement.

[Tova]

She's not forcing Marten to do anything.

[BenRG]

She's not forcing Marten to do anything.

However, and this is the kicker, I wouldn't be surprised if she tells herself that she is forcing him to neglect Claire. Remember what I said about low self-esteem on several occasions? Well, this is just the sort of incident that would play into Faye's sense of being worthless and a burden on her friends. Marten, correctly, is trying to keep his drama out of her life (even though the two are actually linked in this case) but Faye has lived with him for going on two years; if she can't deduce what's going on, then she's a lot drunker than she's been written so far.

So, yeah, I can imagine her trying to persuade Marten to go on his date with Claire anyway, insisting that she'll be 'okay'. Irrespective of whether he succumbs to her persuasion (and it would take a hell of a lot of will on his part not to take an excuse to do something that he wants to do anyway) then I'm seriously worried that Faye may decide to take positive action to 'free' Marten from the 'burden' of looking after her.

[Thrillho]

A lot of word yardage has occurred here, but to weigh in on the Faye thing.

Faye is not taking a priority over Claire, generally.

There is a difference between dropping your girlfriend all the time to see your friend for no reason and breaking a date that has no real significance (not Valentine's; not a holiday; not an anniversary) to assist a friend who is having a relapse of a terrible disease.

He is not prioritising Faye over his relationship. I have friends with problems too, and my girlfriend is understanding enough that if there is a depression issue, an addiction issue, sometimes that can take priority.

What if Faye managed to get herself hospitalised again, or drink herself to death because Marten chose to go to the movies? I don't think he's being super unreasonable.

Also whoever it was that would never forgive Faye if this broke Marten up with Claire? That's the kind of attitude that causes further relapse. Alcoholism is a disease, a disorder, a problem that takes a great deal of strength to get over, as with any addiction.

I also don't think it's that hackneyed a drama. I'd say all three of them are acting perfectly in-character.

[Ravenswing]

A few thoughts.

* First off, is it a surprise to anyone that Claire's a bit high strung?  And even mellow folks can have bad days.  Claire's a long, long way from mellow.

* Secondly, would it be that much of a surprise to anyone if Claire's insecure about this situation?  This relationship with Marten is a NEW one, and may well be her FIRST one.  He's living with another woman, someone for whom Claire knows he's had feelings and has been told has had feelings for him, someone whose interactions with Marten everyone in the social circle knows ALREADY split up a relationship of his.  That woman's just broken up with her own SO, she's just lost her job, she's got a substance abuse problem, and that's the sort of situation where ladies in Faye's position often go trolling for some man, ANY man, to help them feel better.  Hey, look, there's one right there ... 

* Then factor in that Claire's trans.  It'd take a woman of iron self-confidence, in her shoes, not to wonder for even an instant whether Marten would rather be with a "real" woman and is only with her because he's settling for what was handy.  Hey, look, there's one right there ...

* As far as Marten not wanting anyone else around in dealing with this ... I've been in that position a lot of times.  I've got a turn of phrase that's filtered into our social circle: "Non-players off the green."  It's code for "I've got this, I don't need any help, I don't need anyone else mucking this up, this isn't a spectator sport, and I don't have the time or the mental energy to spare from caring for my friend to explain what's going on to kibitzers, even if I was inclined to play fast and loose with my friend's confidences and troubles, which I am most certainly effing not."  There are those who don't find this endearing.

* Finally, look, folks.  We've got a third-person omniscient viewpoint.  WE know Faye isn't trying to get into Marten's pants.  WE know that they're not banging.  WE know that -- at least from what we've seen over the dozen years of the comic -- Marten's not a cheater.  WE know that Faye has a serious alcohol problem.  WE know that she's really messed up over Angus leaving.  WE know that the overwhelming number of Marten's friends being women is because he likes having women friends, and not because he's after a harem.  WE know that Faye's hospitalization was no petty matter, and that she was in serious danger.

Claire doesn't know these things.  Not for a certain fact.  She has no idea that Faye is as bad as she is (and it is, after all, a hard-drinking social circle, where a number of them routinely get blitzed).  She has no idea that Faye isn't trying to get her hooks into Marten, and has no idea that she doesn't already.  She doesn't have a camera trained in their apartment, so that she's got proof that the crises Marten claims are happening are actually happening.  She wasn't privy to Faye's medical records.

If any of you think that Claire's got the serene self-confidence in both herself and her new relationship with this guy she doesn't know all THAT well to be as sure of the reality of the situation as we are, you're not paying attention.

[chaospersonified]

Didn't we see Claire at the hospital? She's privy at least to the fact that that DID happen.

I wouldn't be surprised if she had her concerns; that is to be expected. I'm just thrown off by the way that's presenting. Claire always seemed to me like the type who would keep talking for ages in hopes of getting some assurance Marten was telling the truth, not hang up so soon.

I like that expression, by the way. Good, simple way to put it.

[Mlle Germain]

I also think what's happened is pretty in character for everyone -- I can understand Marten wanting to care for Faye when she's doing badly; and I can understand Claire for feeling really insecure and jealous about it. And I also don't think this will break up Marten and Claire. I am sure they will be able to talk about it and come to understand each other.

I do think that Faye needs more external (probably professional) help, though. It cannot be good for a friendship and for a roommate-relationship long-term when one of the people frequently has to put their social life on hold to cope with the other's issues. Mind, I'm not blaming Faye for this and I think Marten is right in not abandoning her when Faye is in a really bad spot, but they both need to realise that this cannot become a regular thing -- it cannot be Marten's responsibility to make sure that Faye is not drinking.
I wonder if contacting her mother would not be good for Faye, actually. And she should go back to Dr Corinne (why hasn't she already?!). Maybe she can refer Faye to a programme. I think it would be good for Faye to go to a clinic; to have help around at all times and also to get out of her regular life for a bit.

Edit: And no, I don't think Claire was at the hospital. When that happened, Marten also called to cancel their date.

[Thrillho]

Stuff

I liked this once, but I wish I could like it thirty times. I like the shit out of it. Thankyou.

[Method of Madness]

I think the candy floss unicorns are about to be culled.

I have no idea what this means.

[Zebediah]

It means the people who have been complaining about there being no drama between Claire and Marten are about to get some. No more "Claire and Marten is like a herd of unicorns farting rainbows all the damned  time." They'll have to find something else to complain about.

[cabbagehut]

I think that Claire knowing Faye and Marten's history shouldn't really be that important.  Yeah, there was something once, a very long time ago, but there's never really been anything since (that she knows about, and was generally not anything significant).  They've been friends and only friends for a long time, even in comic time (it's been what, a year or two since that point?).  Focusing on one event that happened long before she ever knew them, and that had a major relationship and a few minor ones in between meeting them, just suggests that she/people thinks it's not possible to stay friends with exes.  And they aren't even exes!

Like lots of us, I'm projecting my own experience on to the characters.  I don't have the most patience for Claire, admittedly, because I've had to take care of sick people, and there are always people who don't get it.  They have needs that you can't fulfill because someone else needs you more, and they either don't want to or just can't listen to the reasoning behind it.  It's frustrating to see a friendship or relationship fall apart because of a crisis you can't ignore, and the other person needs more than what you can give, but as I've said before: Claire is an adult.  She often doesn't act like it (and I know that's part of her charm for other people, and it's not wrong), but in this case, I think she would be better served by to taking a step back and realizing what a very serious situation it is, and her better role as "girlfriend" is as a supporter to her partner, who's taking on a lot for someone he cares about very much, and that if he asks for space, he's probably got a very good reason.

[Tova]

A few thoughts.
* Finally, look, folks.  We've got a third-person omniscient viewpoint.  WE know Faye isn't trying to get into Marten's pants.  WE know that they're not banging.  WE know that -- at least from what we've seen over the dozen years of the comic -- Marten's not a cheater.  WE know that Faye has a serious alcohol problem.  WE know that she's really messed up over Angus leaving.  WE know that the overwhelming number of Marten's friends being women is because he likes having women friends, and not because he's after a harem.  WE know that Faye's hospitalization was no petty matter, and that she was in serious danger.

Claire doesn't know these things.  Not for a certain fact.  She has no idea that Faye is as bad as she is (and it is, after all, a hard-drinking social circle, where a number of them routinely get blitzed).  She has no idea that Faye isn't trying to get her hooks into Marten, and has no idea that she doesn't already.  She doesn't have a camera trained in their apartment, so that she's got proof that the crises Marten claims are happening are actually happening.  She wasn't privy to Faye's medical records.

If any of you think that Claire's got the serene self-confidence in both herself and her new relationship with this guy she doesn't know all THAT well to be as sure of the reality of the situation as we are, you're not paying attention.

Thank you for the perspective, and for adding to my sig.

[Omega Entity]

A few thoughts.

* First off, is it a surprise to anyone that Claire's a bit high strung?  And even mellow folks can have bad days.  Claire's a long, long way from mellow.

* Secondly, would it be that much of a surprise to anyone if Claire's insecure about this situation?  This relationship with Marten is a NEW one, and may well be her FIRST one.  He's living with another woman, someone for whom Claire knows he's had feelings and has been told has had feelings for him, someone whose interactions with Marten everyone in the social circle knows ALREADY split up a relationship of his.  That woman's just broken up with her own SO, she's just lost her job, she's got a substance abuse problem, and that's the sort of situation where ladies in Faye's position often go trolling for some man, ANY man, to help them feel better.  Hey, look, there's one right there

It is her very first relationship ever, yes.

Also - I still argue that it was Dora's control issues and insecurities that broke the pair up (remember how livid she got, both at the girl asked Marten out and that he didn't tell her, thinking he was trying to hide it from her). The last number of butting of heads had nothing whatsoever to do with Faye, as I recall, so I'd say it's rather a stretch to say that Faye was a major factor in the implosion of the relationship, let alone the cause. Dora's insecurities aren't Faye's fault, as she's exhibited them in regards to other people as well.

Didn't she also have serious hangups about Marten's (actual) exes before, also? Which would go further to prove that it was Dora's insecurities in general and not just in regards to Faye, since she'd have exhibited that trait otherwise.

Otherwise, I think what you said was pretty spot-on.

Didn't we see Claire at the hospital? She's privy at least to the fact that that DID happen.

I wouldn't be surprised if she had her concerns; that is to be expected. I'm just thrown off by the way that's presenting. Claire always seemed to me like the type who would keep talking for ages in hopes of getting some assurance Marten was telling the truth, not hang up so soon.

I like that expression, by the way. Good, simple way to put it.

Nope, she came over after Marten returned from the hospital.

I think that Claire knowing Faye and Marten's history shouldn't really be that important.  Yeah, there was something once, a very long time ago, but there's never really been anything since (that she knows about, and was generally not anything significant).  They've been friends and only friends for a long time, even in comic time (it's been what, a year or two since that point?).  Focusing on one event that happened long before she ever knew them, and that had a major relationship and a few minor ones in between meeting them, just suggests that she/people thinks it's not possible to stay friends with exes.  And they aren't even exes!

A year or two isn't a long time at all. The glacial pace of the comic makes it feel like it is. And I'd argue that Claire's knowledge of Marten and Faye's history is extremely important. As mentioned before she's extremely high-strung, and has a history of jumping to conclusions (even in regards to Marten,  and angrily so, might I add - the homewrecker comment comes immediately to mind). She probably got the Cliff's notes, and I'm sure Pintsize's summation of things ("They wanted to bang, but didn't. ") probably didn't do Claire's future piece of mind any favors.

So when Marten "blows her off" for Reasons Faye and is evasive (or at least, not forthcoming) of the reasons why, and pretty much says that her presence isn't desired there at the moment (not in a harsh manner, no), it's not farfetched to think that Claire could be interpreting things in the worst possible way, and I don't think she'd be reacting so badly if she didn't know the history. If she didn't know the history and -still- reacted this way, then we really would be retreading Dora's Insecurity Trail.

[diogeneticist]

Hmmm I'm kinda wondering what it was that Marten was about to say. "No I don't-"
-think you should come over.
-want to have sex with Faye.
-know a six letter word for radiator.

[BenRG]

Hmmm I'm kinda wondering what it was that Marten was about to say. "No I don't-"
-think you should come over.
-want to have sex with Faye.
-know a six letter word for radiator.

Wrong end of the conversation. Claire probably said something accusing like: "You're basically saying that Faye is more important to you than our relationship, aren't you?"

To which he was trying to say: "No, I don't mean that!"

[Akima]

Yeah... Which doesn't seem like Claire, but... a bad day, maybe.

[Thrillho]

I think that Claire knowing Faye and Marten's history shouldn't really be that important.  Yeah, there was something once, a very long time ago, but there's never really been anything since (that she knows about, and was generally not anything significant).  They've been friends and only friends for a long time, even in comic time (it's been what, a year or two since that point?).  Focusing on one event that happened long before she ever knew them, and that had a major relationship and a few minor ones in between meeting them, just suggests that she/people thinks it's not possible to stay friends with exes.  And they aren't even exes!

Ah yes, I agree with this entirely, but... lest we forget, an awful lot of people don't feel the same way.

[Neko_Ali]

Also keep in mind that this is the second time Marten has broken off a date at the last minute because of Faye/Faye's drinking. Yes, rationally speaking the first time he was totally blameless because you know, Faye nearly drunk herself to death and Marten had to call the paramedics. And now what, two or three days after that incident he's calling off another date night to take care of Faye because 'she's not feeling well', to use Marten's words. That has to sting when you don't know all that's going on. Sure Claire is jumping things a bit here... but that's totally in character with her as other people have pointed out. When they have a chance to talk the next day I'm sure they'll work it out.

[swapna]

I think that Claire knowing Faye and Marten's history shouldn't really be that important.  Yeah, there was something once, a very long time ago, but there's never really been anything since (that she knows about, and was generally not anything significant).  They've been friends and only friends for a long time, even in comic time (it's been what, a year or two since that point?).  Focusing on one event that happened long before she ever knew them, and that had a major relationship and a few minor ones in between meeting them, just suggests that she/people thinks it's not possible to stay friends with exes.  And they aren't even exes!

Like lots of us, I'm projecting my own experience on to the characters.  I don't have the most patience for Claire, admittedly, because I've had to take care of sick people, and there are always people who don't get it.  They have needs that you can't fulfill because someone else needs you more, and they either don't want to or just can't listen to the reasoning behind it.  It's frustrating to see a friendship or relationship fall apart because of a crisis you can't ignore, and the other person needs more than what you can give, but as I've said before: Claire is an adult.  She often doesn't act like it (and I know that's part of her charm for other people, and it's not wrong), but in this case, I think she would be better served by to taking a step back and realizing what a very serious situation it is, and her better role as "girlfriend" is as a supporter to her partner, who's taking on a lot for someone he cares about very much, and that if he asks for space, he's probably got a very good reason.

You've pretty much summed up my feelings. Yes, taking care of a friend is a priority. Even taking care of strangers who are in a bad situation; if your partner is, for example, a volunteer firefighter or something they will blow your valentines three-weeks-planned fancy date off because their pager beeps - and they are right to do so.

I think Claire's still used to be joined at the hip with Marten, because if the months of Claire/Marten dating strips are any indication they spent almost all free time (and all their time at work) with each other, even after Faye was hospitalised. While I find a bumpy romance a bit more interesting (and it might even rescue Marten/Claire), I am surprised that people are angry at Faye. As of now, she's been a friend in need for a few days. There's been no indication that she's abusing Marten financially (she might have a little extra money from babysitting Sam), and she's looking for another job. Her hospital bills are paid for. Alcoholism is hard to kick, but she's trying. If this goes on for months, it's a different story but.. now?

And I have to agree with Gladstone: it looks a little contrived. Yeah, Claire's been childish, high-strung and so on, but she knows exactly what's up. Faye told her, remember?

[Ravenswing]

I think that Claire knowing Faye and Marten's history shouldn't really be that important.  Yeah, there was something once, a very long time ago, but there's never really been anything since (that she knows about, and was generally not anything significant).  They've been friends and only friends for a long time, even in comic time (it's been what, a year or two since that point?).  Focusing on one event that happened long before she ever knew them, and that had a major relationship and a few minor ones in between meeting them, just suggests that she/people thinks it's not possible to stay friends with exes.  And they aren't even exes!

Yes, perhaps the history SHOULDN'T really be that important.  This being the real world, and people having real insecurities, of course it can be.  Seriously, folks, put yourselves in this situation: exactly how many of us have ever had SOs who'd be cool with us living with another person, where everyone knew we had mutual feelings for one another?  Heck, my wife isn't enthusiastic about some of my exes being on my Facebook friends list, a couple of whom I haven't seen in at least 30 years.

And I would humbly suggest that the great majority of people do, indeed, believe that it's not merely impossible but inconceivable to stay friends with exes.

[Oenone]

Someone up thread talked about force and how no one's held a gun to Marten's chest to make him skip a date.

The thing is, Faye has; that's part of what makes this a codependent relationship. The threat is now, If you leave, I'll drink.

[marsman57]

Claire is in the right. Marten can't blow her off every time Faye takes a drink. He's not her keeper. At a minimum he should've let Claire come over.

I don't really know what the end game is here. It's obvious that Faye doesn't intend to stop drinking. He can't make her. That has to come from within.

[94ssd]

Faye needs perhaps full time professional help. This will also allow Marten and others to be supportive friends but not literally crutches holding Faye up.

So I know this comic has never focused on financial stuff, mainly because that would be a boring as shit webcomic. But something to keep in mind when thinking about real life people with these same struggles: "full time professional help" can't be paid for with unicorn dust and smiles. In an ideal world anyone who needed therapy and addiction counseling could get it, but we don't live in an ideal world, we live in a kind of fucked up one. People regularly rush to "oh, they should get some real help" judgments without actually considering what that would mean for a person without spare money lying around.

[Thrillho]

It's obvious that Faye doesn't intend to stop drinking. He can't make her. That has to come from within.

Didn't we establish that it's only been maybe three or four days since she was hospitalised?

'Oh you failed once? Clearly I'm wasting my time.'

[chaospersonified]

It's obvious that Faye doesn't intend to stop drinking.

Spoken like someone with no idea of what addiction can, and does, do to a person's brain.

[Thrillho]

God help me if after my first failed attempt to quit smoking someone had said 'clearly you have no intention of giving up.'

I'm nine months into something like the 15th or 16th try.

And that's not the only thing I've had trouble stopping using either.

[gprimr1]

The roots of Marten and Faye's relationship is frustrated mutual sexual attraction.

I'm thinking that may not be the answer here.

I def agree. I think they need to either spend some time apart and "detox" so to speak, or just do it and see where it goes. I've been in this situation many times, frustration, a woman who wants to go forward but stops herself. In some ways it's 100x worse having to deal with it than if you just do it.

[gprimr1]

You've pretty much summed up my feelings. Yes, taking care of a friend is a priority. Even taking care of strangers who are in a bad situation; if your partner is, for example, a volunteer firefighter or something they will blow your valentines three-weeks-planned fancy date off because their pager beeps - and they are right to do so.

I can speak to this as I am a volunteer FF. It's not easy to find people who are truly accepting of it, and even if you do, it has to be a two way street. If you always blow off plans for the firehouse, it's not going to work out and it's going to really hurt you in the long run because you need a support system. In the same stroke, the other person has to understand that sometimes it will happen and plans may get pushed back or cancelled.

In my experience, the people who work best are the ones with strong personal lives outside. That doesn't bode well for Claire, since she seems to be fused to Martin. Some of the firehouse couples I know may not see each other for a couple days or if they do, just in passing.

I do agree that Martin and Fayes history is relevant, and her other friends need to get involved. If he's the one constantly taking care of her, him and Claire probally will implode.

And I think that might not be a bad thing. It might actually force a really interesting story arc with Martin finally coming to terms with his own flaws.

[CM_albion]

You've pretty much summed up my feelings. Yes, taking care of a friend is a priority. Even taking care of strangers who are in a bad situation; if your partner is, for example, a volunteer firefighter or something they will blow your valentines three-weeks-planned fancy date off because their pager beeps - and they are right to do so.

I can speak to this as I am a volunteer FF. It's not easy to find people who are truly accepting of it, and even if you do, it has to be a two way street. If you always blow off plans for the firehouse, it's not going to work out and it's going to really hurt you in the long run because you need a support system. In the same stroke, the other person has to understand that sometimes it will happen and plans may get pushed back or cancelled.

In my experience, the people who work best are the ones with strong personal lives outside. That doesn't bode well for Claire, since she seems to be fused to Martin. Some of the firehouse couples I know may not see each other for a couple days or if they do, just in passing.

I do agree that Martin and Fayes history is relevant, and her other friends need to get involved. If he's the one constantly taking care of her, him and Claire probally will implode.

And I think that might not be a bad thing. It might actually force a really interesting story arc with Martin finally coming to terms with his own flaws.

how is marten at fault here? i fail to see how this scenario highlights any of his flaws (not to say he doesn't have any).

[Soulsynger]

Can this please just be a case of "a wild quantum tunnel appears - it uses "signal unavailable through tons of concrete" - it's super effective" ?

I wonder how instrumental it might be to accuse Faye of being a disturbing factor in Marten's personal life. Marten might not be the kind of guy to actually DO that but with Faye being in the state she's in it's probably all too easy to hear any criticism offered as just such an accusation.

There's also Marten's state of mind and memory to consider. He's had a relationship basically blow up in his face over control-issues (Dora's).
In my experience, people hanging up quickly is often - at least subconsciously - also a way to gauge someone else's "stolidity" and thus to gauge how quickly someone can be persuaded to "give in" when faced with open-ended confrontation.
As with Marten, this might be out of character for Claire but no one can say how Marten might see it in his current situation.

[plusorminus]

Can this please just be a case of "a wild quantum tunnel appears - it uses "signal unavailable through tons of concrete" - it's super effective" ?

I wouldn't be surprised if we find it was something just like that, or maybe Clinton visiting and one of his computer projects going awry. I still think Claire is on her way over.

I wonder how instrumental it might be to accuse Faye of being a disturbing factor in Marten's personal life. Marten might not be the kind of guy to actually DO that but with Faye being in the state she's in it's probably all too easy to hear any criticism offered as just such an accusation.

The thing is, she is. But it's not (entirely) on her. Marten has shown resistance and reluctance to let Faye go. I trace the demise of his relationship with Dora directly to the arc where he balked at moving in with Dora without Faye. Even Faye was like " ... Dude?" Dora gave in, and their relationship imploded shortly thereafter because Dora had to think that this was how it would always be, that Marten would not make any sort of personal move without the Faye factor, and because of the way their relationship started, that ultimately did not work for her.

Claire comes in knowing that Marten and Faye could have had a thing, but didn't. As far as we know, she got the TL;DR version. It is possible that if she knew the whole story, she would be more understanding, but that understanding goes only so far. The fact is, she is not Marten's girlfriend, his spouse, or the mother of his child. She is his friend. Yes, it's a different hierarchy than, say, Hanners or Tai, but the relationship is platonic. Claire, remember, is not only the child of divorce, but the child of parents who divorced because of infidelity. This is going to weigh heavily on her. Just as Faye's issues with abandoment had to be taken into consideration, if Marten wants things to work with Claire, he is going to have to realize that he is going to need to steer far clear from anything that can be read into as him cheating or wanting to cheat.

There's also Marten's state of mind and memory to consider. He's had a relationship basically blow up in his face over control-issues (Dora's).
In my experience, people hanging up quickly is often - at least subconsciously - also a way to gauge someone else's "stolidity" and thus to gauge how quickly someone can be persuaded to "give in" when faced with open-ended confrontation.
As with Marten, this might be out of character for Claire but no one can say how Marten might see it in his current situation.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on anything Dora-related. Beyond that, I think that it is possible Claire had something special planned, or is wondering, as someone mentioned upthread, whether everytime Faye suffers a setback in her sobriety, she is the one who will have to suffer the consequences (i.e. Marten's absence from dates.) I do agree that this is a little early in Faye's recovery for Claire to be this angry, but if Marten wants this to work out, he is going to have to figure out a balancing point. He can't just chuck his plans with Claire whenever Faye backslides.

[pwhodges]

she [Claire] is the one who will have to suffer the consequences (i.e. Marten's absence from dates.)

Why do you think he does not suffer those consequences as well?  Plus the problems of dealing with Faye on top of that.

[gprimr1]

how is marten at fault here? i fail to see how this scenario highlights any of his flaws (not to say he doesn't have any).

He could have called Hannelore, or another friend to come over. Or just emptied the bottle. At some point, he has to be willing to put Claire first.

To go back to the FF example, a FF who never puts himself first ends up one of two days 1.) Burnt out and quit 2.) A statistic in yearly suicide counts.

[plusorminus]

Why do you think he does not suffer those consequences as well?  Plus the problems of dealing with Faye on top of that.

There's no evidence that Marten sees it that way, IMO. He has had the opportunity to break free from Faye before (i.e. moving in with just Dora). He has not taken them. He could have called Hanners to come down. He could have told Claire to come over and explain that Faye had a rough day so would it be cool if they had a night in. Marten doesn't seem to see being Faye's Jiminy Cricket as a hardship.

Yes, he suffers, and he sort of gets close to some of the potential reasons why when he has his existential crisis after the Padma thing falls apart, but he does not see Faye's presence in his life, such as it is now, as a hindrance. It is possible that this arc will give him some clarity on that as someone else postulated upthread. But it's also possible that if Claire tells him to fuck off, he will not evaluate how his relationship with and to Faye might be hindering him from forming lasting romantic bonds with other women.

[CasAttack]

Faye needs perhaps full time professional help. This will also allow Marten and others to be supportive friends but not literally crutches holding Faye up.

So I know this comic has never focused on financial stuff, mainly because that would be a boring as shit webcomic. But something to keep in mind when thinking about real life people with these same struggles: "full time professional help" can't be paid for with unicorn dust and smiles. In an ideal world anyone who needed therapy and addiction counseling could get it, but we don't live in an ideal world, we live in a kind of fucked up one. People regularly rush to "oh, they should get some real help" judgments without actually considering what that would mean for a person without spare money lying around.

I'm not trying to be offensive here so I apologize if I did that with my comment. I guess more to the point I meant to make, Faye needs someone beyond Marten. I have no real knowledge on the matter to know who or what Faye needs, but Marten I think is someone who could unconsciously make matters worse simply because he needs to work, is in a very new relationship, and I don't even think is in a great head space to exercise the amount of patience someone in his shoes needs.

And while yeah, I hate to bring up finances as a thing to care about here, but I DO have experience in money matters ruining close relationships. An inability to get a job for whatever situation will place a strain on two friends who live together. With the introduction of Claire's character I felt that Marten was beginning to have some problems with himself in terms of not knowing exactly what he wants to do in life. Claire is intense and highly motivated, while Marten is going through the motions at work and both of them share a boss who is just there for some bucks and shows no intentions to 'grow up' anytime soon.

Bottom line I guess is Faye needs something Marten can't provide, and Marten might need to come to terms with that regardless of the current tiff with Claire.

[Interlude]

In this case, I agree that helping Faye through a relapse is more important than a date. I also agree that having Claire there would not be helpful. However, I do understand her being uncomfortable with the situation. Marten is living with a girl he had strong feelings for, and if he starts blowing off dates in order to spend time with this same girl, I feel like most people would  be upset.

He should have walked into another room and explained the situation better. Claire is his girlfriend. Faye's alcoholism isn't a secret. He isn't doing anyone any favors by being vague or secretive about what is going on. If he is direct with Claire, and this doesn't become a regular thing, it will be less of an issue.

Mini-rant: I hate it when people start labeling a relationship that had its start in mutual sexual attraction/tension as a "familiar" or "sibling-like" relationship. Marten is not Faye's surrogate brother. They are not siblings. They have known each other for a couple of years and are very close, but that does not make their interactions that of a brother and sister. They act like close friends. The implications of saying they are like family is that anyone who feels insecure or jealous because of their closeness is being unreasonable. Nope. Attraction doesn't just die. I'm sure there are times where Marten still appreciates her curves. Even if that is not the case, the start of the relationship was mutual desire, and that does affect how people are going to view their current relationship.

 

[Omega Entity]

Claire, remember, is not only the child of divorce, but the child of parents who divorced because of infidelity. This is going to weigh heavily on her. Just as Faye's issues with abandoment had to be taken into consideration, if Marten wants things to work with Claire, he is going to have to realize that he is going to need to steer far clear from anything that can be read into as him cheating or wanting to cheat.

If Claire has ingrained insecurities stemming from a parent's infidelity and abandonment, then even innocuous situations can be read into as it happening again. It may be possible to avoid obviously-suspicious situations, but it is utterly impossible for Marten to 'steer clear' of situations that don't seem like they could be taken in that way. He can certainly try, but it is a lot to expect of someone to expect them to be on high alert with every single interaction they have, to make sure it can't possibly be construed as an indication of potential abandonment or infidelity, and will destroy a relationship sooner, not later.

Can he try to avoid the obvious ones? Sure. But the onus would lie on Claire to seek out help in dealing with her hangups, not Marten in having to cater to them.

[themacnut]

It's been mentioned before, but I think the time factor needs to be emphasized here; this is the second time in probably less than a week that Marten has cancelled a date with Claire due to Faye's alcoholism (I don't think it's even been a week since she got out of the hospital). And Claire isn't stupid, she'll figure out that's the reason, probably already has, hence her hanging up in a huff; she may be wondering if this is going to be a regular thing with Marten, and if so does she really want to deal with it.

I wouldn't blame her if she was reconsidering her whole relationship with Marten considering he's cancelled dates on her twice in so short a period of time over Faye's issues. She may find that she's just not able or willing to "share" Marten with so needy a friend, seeing as Claire is rather needy herself.

[dilbert719]

Not suggesting she has to do this, but my respect for Faye would go way up if she grabbed Marten's phone (or used her own if she has the number, I just doubt she does), called Claire, told her that Marten was helping her through a relapse, and to come over if she'd like.

A large chunk of the issue here seems to be that Marten is trying to respect Faye's privacy, which introduces the opportunity for misunderstandings on Claire's end. If Faye outright admitted what was going on, so Marten didn't have to dance around the subject, that'd go a long way.

[pwhodges]

It's been mentioned before, but I think the time factor needs to be emphasized here; this is the second time in probably less than a week that Marten has cancelled a date with Claire due to Faye's alcoholism (I don't think it's even been a week since she got out of the hospital). And Claire isn't stupid, she'll figure out that's the reason, probably already has, hence her hanging up in a huff; she may be wondering if this is going to be a regular thing with Marten, and if so does she really want to deal with it.

She could as easily be thinking that because he's obviously dealing with the aftermath of the same problem, it's best to leave him to deal with it rather than distracting him.

[plusorminus]

If Claire has ingrained insecurities stemming from a parent's infidelity and abandonment, then even innocuous situations can be read into as it happening again. It may be possible to avoid obviously-suspicious situations, but it is utterly impossible for Marten to 'steer clear' of situations that don't seem like they could be taken in that way. He can certainly try, but it is a lot to expect of someone to expect them to be on high alert with every single interaction they have, to make sure it can't possibly be construed as an indication of potential abandonment or infidelity, and will destroy a relationship sooner, not later.

Can he try to avoid the obvious ones? Sure. But the onus would lie on Claire to seek out help in dealing with her hangups, not Marten in having to cater to them.

I hear you, and I think in general, this is correct. I think I am just looking at the situation here between them. Claire is not privy to "The Talk" that I know of. At the time that Pintsize gave her the TL;DR version of what happened between Faye and Marten, it was just a funny punchline because Claire and Marten were not involved. Now they are. From the reader's perspective, Faye has been to hell and back, she and Marten were the victims of lousy timing for romance, but they have a strong bond and are close friends and he isn't going to abandon her. From Claire's perspective, her first boyfriend and possibly the first cis man she has shown open attraction to, is blowing her off for his alcoholic roommate who nearly drank herself to death and got fired from her job for drinking on the job, and, oh, they both used to want to bang each other but didn't ... for some reason.

I think Claire would be totally on board with things when/if she gets some more expanded version of The Talk. Right now, though, she is a person who has had to live through her dad cheating on her mom and likely remembers stuff like "Oh, I can't make it for dinner tonight, hon, I'm working late ..." and things escalating from there.

If/When she becomes privy to what has gone in Faye's life and Marten's role in Faye's well-being, and she still acts in a jealous/possessive manner a la Dora, then that's one thing. But I think that at this point, Claire not knowing the whole story is fueling this. Marten likely should have had a talk with her about these things when they decided to become serious about each other.

[swapna]

how is marten at fault here? i fail to see how this scenario highlights any of his flaws (not to say he doesn't have any).

He could have called Hannelore, or another friend to come over. Or just emptied the bottle. At some point, he has to be willing to put Claire first.

To go back to the FF example, a FF who never puts himself first ends up one of two days 1.) Burnt out and quit 2.) A statistic in yearly suicide counts.

Let's put this in perspective - Marten cancelled twice in about a week or so. He still found time to spend with her otherwise, and Faye was on the brink of death. He is with her at work, he has found time for several dates (they visited Veronica, she visited him at least twice and they had time enough for their Martens-feelings-about-Claire-talk.) And he found time to call her before he tried to save Faye, and they boned afterwards.That is not putting her on the back seat, that's 'being attached at the hip and spending time with Faye only when he's sleeping in the next room or when Claire's visiting'.

[themacnut]

It's been mentioned before, but I think the time factor needs to be emphasized here; this is the second time in probably less than a week that Marten has cancelled a date with Claire due to Faye's alcoholism (I don't think it's even been a week since she got out of the hospital). And Claire isn't stupid, she'll figure out that's the reason, probably already has, hence her hanging up in a huff; she may be wondering if this is going to be a regular thing with Marten, and if so does she really want to deal with it.

She could as easily be thinking that because he's obviously dealing with the aftermath of the same problem, it's best to leave him to deal with it rather than distracting him.

The problem with that interpretation is Claire hanging up on Marten mid-sentence. That's the kind of thing people generally do when they're pissed off at the person on the other end of the line, and do not want to hear any more of what they have to say. There are other possible explanations, but this is the most likely one, and Marten knows it too, hence his annoyed/upset look and his sarcastic "Peachy." reply to Faye. Which also suggests he may be annoyed at Faye for putting him in this position again.

In any case, it sucks to be Marten right now. He's got both a drunk alcoholic unemployed friend and roommate AND a most likely upset girlfriend to deal with. There are worse things to be dealing with, but this situation is definitely not happiness-enhancing.

[pwhodges]

The problem with that interpretation is Claire hanging up on Marten mid-sentence. That's the kind of thing people generally do when they're pissed off at the person on the other end of the line, and do not want to hear any more of what they have to say.

That is true but not conclusive; she could react in anger and then think it through.  All I'm saying is that we don't yet know where in the spectrum of reactions she is. 

[Somnus Eternus]

I mean...okay, I get the reaction, and I'd be annoyed too, buuuut...

Claire and Marten have only just started dating.  This isn't exactly a long-term relationship.  I'm hoping she's not going to blow this up into a huge fight and that this is a passing frustration, because frankly - she's the new(ish) girlfriend, not the wife.  She has a right to be annoyed and frustrated, but there also needs to be some perspective here. Claire does know the situation and she also knows that Marten is extremely loyal to his friends, which is why the fact that she just hung up the phone like that mid-sentence actually doesn't sit well with me - it comes across as very immature.

Which I guess is in-character for her, since she doesn't have much experience in relationships and does lack maturity in many ways when it comes to that sort of thing.

...The longer I type, the more I wonder if we're going to start seeing an ACTUAL relationship develop between Marten and Claire instead of this weird, idealized version that's thus far come across as kind of shallow (in my opinion).

[Half Empty Coffee Cup]

Well, then.

Were I Marten, and this became a reoccurring thing (which, realistically speaking, it could become), I do believe I'd get to the point where I am obviously not a patient sort of person. Something like "From now on, you follow Hannelore around like a puppy. You don't let yourself be alone. Ever. And if you're not with Hannelore, you'd best be talking about this with Dr. Corrinne at that moment, or so help me, you can enjoy talking about it in inpatient. Hopefully, we can convince Hannelore to put it on her tab if it comes to that."

But, you know, that's if this kind of thing happens five or six times in two weeks, and I am, again, not the most patient person on Earth.

[chaospersonified]

I like to imagine there's been explanation of Faye's character to Claire outside what we've seen, but that's speculation.

[paragraphs of more things I agree with]

... I wonder if we're going to start seeing an ACTUAL relationship develop between Marten and Claire instead of this weird, idealized version that's thus far come across as kind of shallow (in my opinion).

I've shown my support for Clariten, I've made no qualms that I like Claire as a character, but that being said, oh my god, yes. I'm not going to complain about the two being happy, especially not since they're still in the early part of the relationship, but there HAS to be conflict at some point.

Her response feels like it's a bit exasperated for just the second time (first where life wasn't in danger) Marten pushed back a date. Especially since they'd just spent the entire day together.

[Rghfrgl]

He could have called Hannelore, or another friend to come over.

Normally you could tag in Hanners, but I don't think you can do that in this situation since that'd make her feel guilty for the whole thing. Other friends aren't close enough and probably aren't a good fit anyway(Marigold stumbling through it, Tai giving lectures of the dangers of substance abuse). Dora would work, except y'know, fallout.

Maybe Not-AA has one of those buddy systems she can get in on. Otherwise it's going to be a lot of pressure on Marten and Hanners.