Comic Discussion > ALICE GROVE
Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
mikmaxs:
--- Quote from: TheEvilDog on 07 Jul 2017, 07:49 ---Force multiplication is a general term, the idea being that a force can take advantage of their environment/resources/abilities and use that advantage to do much, much more than they would without it. It doesn't have to be physical, but rather a mental advantage. In this case, you have Sedna ripping off her crippled arm and fashioning a bone shiv from it in a matter of seconds. Its not stabbing Church in the neck, its the actually act of ripping off her arm, tearing a chunk of meat off the bone and snapping a shard off. Its the sheer insanity of the act, because really, what kind of rational person with maim themselves like that to take down an enemy?! Who would think that someone would do that to themselves?! The element of surprise can be a powerful and devastating means of force multiplication.
Lets put it this way, if you have ever read Sun Tzu's The Art of War, he writes that the worst thing a commander can do is to drive an enemy force into a corner and giving them no way out. Why? Because the enemy has nothing to lose and will fight with even more ferocity under the belief that they are dead already.
--- End quote ---
Okay, but this isn't a case of 'A far superior opponent with more strength, training, and experience was taken by surprise by a desperate act'.
It's a case of 'An enemy who was shown to be impervious to literally everything else was killed by a weapon that has no demonstrable reason to have been sturdier than previous weapons.'
Church was strong enough to shatter Sedna's bones by squeezing his hand slightly, with neither buildup nor any leverage. This does not imply that her bones will make particularly strong weapons.
Later, we see that it takes him Consecutive Normal Punches to get through the faceplate of Alice's armor, and that his bonecrushing strength is so dampened by her body armor that she survives a massive pummeling and is able to stand a couple minutes later, implying that the armor is INCREDIBLY strong relative to unshielded Sedna bones. Chruch's armor is at least as strong as Alice's, and can take hits from orbital laser cannons and warhammers built to kill supersoldiers, but... Does absolutely nothing against a shrapnelly bone?
I'm saying that the physics of the thing don't make logical sense.
OldGoat:
--- Quote from: mikmaxs on 07 Jul 2017, 12:39 ---I'm saying that the physics of the thing don't make logical sense.
--- End quote ---
No, it doesn't. Fictional stories are like that. You can't be stingy with the suspension of disbelief when you follow them.
WareWolf:
I'm pretty sure Pate knows what Alice is. ISTR that he noticed that she was like Church, just not as strong or fast. Which raises the question of who he's addressing his question to.
mikmaxs:
--- Quote from: OldGoat on 07 Jul 2017, 13:22 ---
--- Quote from: mikmaxs on 07 Jul 2017, 12:39 ---I'm saying that the physics of the thing don't make logical sense.
--- End quote ---
No, it doesn't. Fictional stories are like that. You can't be stingy with the suspension of disbelief when you follow them.
--- End quote ---
YeaNo.
That's not how suspension of disbelief works.
Suspension of disbelief is "I'll buy that this world has magic in it, and that characters have superhuman abilities that don't really exist". Or it can be "I'll buy that this world is populated entirely be attractive people with razor wit and acute self-awareness".
Suspension of disbelief is NOT "I will ignore major inconsistencies within a story's internal logic."
I'm fine that Godzilla couldn't really exist because of the square-cube law. But if Godzilla was just fine for 90% of the movie, then took a bad step and broke both his ankles because of his weight being too much for them to support, the movie would be bad.
This is important, too, because a story lives and dies on setup and payoff. (To make a sidenote: Subversion is still a form of payoff, as are intentional anticlimaxes.) If something isn't properly set up, it risks coming off as a deus ex machina, and is never as satisfying as something with actual buildup. If something is set up, and then that setup is directly contradicted or ignored, it robs the scene of tension and robs the whole story of consequence.
The whole scene with Church's death has so many plot holes and inconsistencies and elements that are either yet-to-be-explained or are simply never going to be explained that it is effectively impossible for any reader to realize that it could have happened. It's a deus ex machina, and it removes the largest source of conflict from the story at a moment when the drama should be rising, not falling. It's a bad payoff that weakens everything around it and cheapens the supposed threat and tension of the current situation.
I'm not going to bother listing the multitudes of reasons why this was either implausible, implied to be impossible, contradictory, or just poorly telgraphed, but there are lots of them. As a reader, you'd need to make assumptions verging on fanfiction to explain them all away.
TheEvilDog:
--- Quote from: mikmaxs on 07 Jul 2017, 12:39 ---Okay, but this isn't a case of 'A far superior opponent with more strength, training, and experience was taken by surprise by a desperate act'.
It's a case of 'An enemy who was shown to be impervious to literally everything else was killed by a weapon that has no demonstrable reason to have been sturdier than previous weapons.'
Church was strong enough to shatter Sedna's bones by squeezing his hand slightly, with neither buildup nor any leverage. This does not imply that her bones will make particularly strong weapons.
Later, we see that it takes him Consecutive Normal Punches to get through the faceplate of Alice's armor, and that his bonecrushing strength is so dampened by her body armor that she survives a massive pummeling and is able to stand a couple minutes later, implying that the armor is INCREDIBLY strong relative to unshielded Sedna bones. Chruch's armor is at least as strong as Alice's, and can take hits from orbital laser cannons and warhammers built to kill supersoldiers, but... Does absolutely nothing against a shrapnelly bone?
I'm saying that the physics of the thing don't make logical sense.
--- End quote ---
We know next to nothing about the Super Soldiers of Alice Grove; how are they created? Were they born and modified later in life? Were they grown in test tubes or in artificial wombs? Are they genetically engineered or modified with cybernetics or nanotechnology? Did different classes of super soldier get different levels of treatment/modification? Were they psychologically programmed to keep them in line (Sedna's compulsion to maintain machinery and Church's compulsion to serve)? Or were they just giving drugs like Germany did with Pervitin during the Second World War.
You're asking questions to something we have no clue about. Could it be that the bones of the Super Soldier are laced with some nanomolecular polymer and makes their bones that much stronger? Because we've seen Alice and Church deliver punches that should turn their bones to dust.
As for the physics, armour can be resistant, but not resistant. Armour that is resistant to projectiles and blunt impacts could potentially be vulnerable to bladed and piercing weapons (knives). When a projectile is fired, it's basically expending energy as it passes through the air. Armour basically works by slowing a projectile, usually by passing through layers of materials, meaning that it should transfer that kinetic energy before it can harm the person wearing it. Knives and other stabbing weapons are able to maintain constant energy as they pierce the armour, meaning that armour designed for projectiles are useless.
So given that we don't know the details of what made Alice, Sedna and Church, there must be some serious modifications involved if the three of them can suffer the insane damage they have and remain standing (well, until the latest comic) and at this stage it would make sense for them to be able to turn themselves into weapons.
And if that doesn't suffice, then might I suggest the MST3K mantra, which is also the mantra for the comic discussion forum.
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