Comic Discussion > ALICE GROVE
Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
BenRG:
--- Quote from: sitnspin on 21 Jul 2017, 01:24 ---
--- Quote from: BenRG on 20 Jul 2017, 23:41 ---. In QC, it is always allowable (even necessary) to leave issues unaddressed because you want something you can write further strips about. However, in a distinct, self-contained story with a defined start and end, you can't do that. You have to be much clearer about developing plot, identifying stories and, if not wrapping everything up at least giving a clear pointer towards where things have gone
--- End quote ---
This strikes me as a particularly narrow and restrictive view of storytelling.
--- End quote ---
Perhaps but it is the form of storytelling that I like.
[Edit]
I hope that I'm not coming across as too negative and confrontational because that's not what I want. What I want to emphasise is that Alice Grove really has exposed what I regard as rough edges in Jeph's ability to write a long, integrated narrative. Too many things were given too much emphasis or not enough emphasis. Too many character arcs were brushed over and not enough attention given to significant elements (like Gavia having to function without nanotech or a villain group being introduced and then having no clear and unique role).
I'm not saying 'must do better', I'm saying 'can do better'. Alice Grove is not something to which I will be coming back to re-read (a must, IMO, my favourite books I will read tens of times). In the end, what it needed was more depth (perhaps being about 50% longer). Maybe a little more work on the end to emphasise why Alice chose perpetual exile and how she handled the way this was going to hurt those she cared about.
I may try to novelise it on Fanfiction.net or somewhere (Jeph, PM me if you don't want me to do this; you have the final and absolute veto over publication of 'my version') and modify it considerably to deal with those problems that I feel it has. The ending may even be considerably different, especially if I can't justify things like Alice running away as I get close to that point.
KevxD:
Such a disappointing ending. Really get the feeling Jeph just got fed up with it and wrapped things up ASAP. Such a strong contrast to the slow pace of things earlier in the comic is really jarring. I've no problem with leaving things open, but in this case you get the feeling it was an excuse to not flesh things out rather than provoke discussion.
Enjoyable comic, deserved a better ending.
pwhodges:
--- Quote from: sitnspin on 21 Jul 2017, 01:24 ---This strikes me as a particularly narrow and restrictive view of storytelling.
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Possibly, but I think that's overstating it; he and I are probably not alone in feeling that the main themes of a story should be brought to some point by the time of the ending, even if that ending leaves further explanation and development open-ended.
Still (@BenRG, who displays a talent at making story predictions), there is, as has already been said, lots of scope for fan-fiction, both to fill in the past and develop the future. I don't personally feel any urge for that in this case, though.
--- Quote from: KevxD on 21 Jul 2017, 01:45 ---Such a strong contrast to the slow pace of things earlier in the comic is really jarring.
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The change from once a week to once a day made that more apparent than it needed to be.
Jeemy:
Registered just to post my thoughts.
I’ve lurked here for a long time as although I am interested to know what others think about AG, I always found the discussion a little too pseudo high-brow, I’ve never felt the point of this comic was to raise discussion about the exact physics of a situation, more the ethics.
I had to post my thoughts however as I am so surprised that a group of people who are accustomed to picking apart the holes in the viability of some of the writers’ conceits in terms of physics, quantum physics, logistics etc aren’t being more critical of this abrupt ending to AG.
I think it just doesn’t bear true that this was intentional from the beginning. The way in which the conclusion was presented, is nowhere near comparable to the way in which the introduction was presented.
I think this shows in so many aspects of the comic’s presentation:
Simple page numbers: What Alice Grove has given us is roughly 220 pages, approx 160 beginning, 40 middle, and 20 end.
Locations: Where the intro gave us 5 or 6 different locations and a fleshed out world, the progression of the story from then on gave us an underground bunker, the void of space and the lobby of the Praeses.
Ideas: where a lot of the ideas were fleshed out, given cliffhangers, had surprises thrown into them or were otherwise developed, the narrative style changed and the last 20 pages just gave us what I felt were hasty explanations.
The laughing: is it just me or do multiple strips where you see nothing but a character laughing maniacally seem like filler at best. Bad writing at worst.
…I could go on but I don’t want to write too much. You get the point.
And its either that bad writing is what this comes down to, or something worse.
I only really see two possible scenarios:
a) It was intended to be this way from the start. If thats the case, this was a badly planned, badly executed, badly written piece of work, for all the reasons mentioned above.
b) Something changed to make what was originally an open-ended, enjoyable piece of space comicry, become too much to want to deal with and AG was wrapped up in a rush.
I have to say, I strongly lean towards the latter.
- I don’t feel that one would commence all these plot points, introduce all these ideas, locations and characters, with the intent to swiftly kill them all and wrap up in this way.
- I find the whole Patreon system and the kick-starters to fund books, the constant advertising etc quite unpleasant. I get the strong feeling AG was killed because it was not worth it in financial terms, and that everything is for profit with this guy.
- At the end of the day the story just didn’t end up *being very good*! And given the quality of the ideas, concepts, art and writing at the beginning, the huge weighing of the content towards the start of the overall arc, and the speed/length of the conclusion, my inference is that it could have been much better, but was completely abandoned.
The final thing I don’t understand is when JJ has been happy to keep updates every 2 weeks or more for years, why now it was an update every day. If this was intentional and he enjoyed writing it and was proud to finish, I think it would have still been better received if the updates came weekly.
If there had been more story to write and more plans to develop, to produce it weekly, fortnightly or ad hoc wouldn’t have been an issue. Everything points to completely giving up on this project and I am really surprised there is a single person here who thinks this has been a satisfactory conclusion given the usual tendency to pick at even the smallest inconsistencies.
Otl1973:
--- Quote from: BenRG on 21 Jul 2017, 00:18 ---Maybe Jeph always did intend to leave things unsaid (after all, what reason do I have to doubt him on this?) but to have major plot devices like the Nightwalker unexplained is just inexcusable. It just makes me think that he decided to do it because it 'looked cool' but didn't think about how to integrate it into the story. Maybe others (professional writers who write novels for a living or who work for TV and movies) have done that too.
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Tolkien did something of the sort with Tom Bombadil, who he explicitly said was a mystery, who didn't play any meaningful role in the plot, and whose absence wouldn't have impacted anything. And he has taken heat over it ever since - to the point that many readers argue that Bombadil serves no purpose and really shouldn't be there, and most (all?) adaptations have dropped him completely. Tolkien himself apparently couldn't explain why he felt Bombadil belonged there, just that he did. But I think it is valid to argue that all Bombadil did was add 25 or 30 pages of atmosphere and padding to a book that needed more of neither. The Nightwalker is arguably slightly different, since it did perform the significant act of stripping Gavia of her nanobots, but the act ended up temporary (and may or may not have really impacted the plot in the interim) and the reason for the action and its implications are never explained.
With regard to the overall story - as noted, Alice was basically an Indiana Jones character - not significantly affecting what (ultimately) will end up happening. The only major thing that the entire action in the story after Ardent and Gavia arrived on Earth achieved was removing Church (and by her own choice Alice) from the field of play, and that seemed almost incidental. The whole flight to space achieved only exposition (Church's demise(?) could have happened on Earth without really changing anything) - the readers (and the characters) learned some of what was going on, but it ultimately didn't really impact the outcome of the story. I think Jeph created an interesting universe, stocked with a lot of characters, elements, and backstory that could have been much more deeply explored. Whether because of lack/loss of interest on his part, lack of ideas of where those actually led, storytelling limitations, or possibly even financial reasons (the need to devote too much time to something with little return), Jeph didn't. It's hard to buy his claim that all this was as he intended - that the dangling plot points, uninvestigated mysteries, and conclusion by wall of exposition and supposition was what he had planned from the start. But it was his story, his comic, his choice to proceed and end as he did. I personally think it could have been much more, but perhaps not in his hands, at least at his current level of storytelling skill?
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