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"My sister is crazy! She thinks you want romance in your life!"

6 (10.9%)

"What did you say to Evie? She was really quizzing me on you!"

9 (16.4%)

"Bubbles? Bubbles, are... Are you lonely?"

12 (21.8%)

"So, I'm hearing that you want some robo-lovin'!"

3 (5.5%)

""Um... Do... Do you want a boyfriend? I mean, I want you to know I'm cool with it if you do!"

6 (10.9%)

"So... I hear you guys can download pleasure programs! You got any of those installed?"

1 (1.8%)

"So... Uh... Speakin' hypothetically, how does an AI go about gettin' a significant other?"

6 (10.9%)

"Imagine if the Skate Park was a Robot Sex Dungeon! What would have we done then?"

1 (1.8%)

"My baby sis in a serious relationship! Everyone is pairing up except me! Oh Bubs! Will I ever get lucky?"

4 (7.3%)

Other (please specify in a comment)

7 (12.7%)

Total Members Voted: 53

[SpanielBear]

I do find it a little odd that Bubbles doesn't interpret Faye's "tea and crumpets" suggestion as a glib remark. To my knowledge people in the U.S. almost never suggest that in earnest.

Don't be so sure. Crumpets are serious business. The Boston Tea Party would have ended very differently had the redcoats not disobeyed orders and served pikelets instead.

[DSL]

Tea and crumpets, which I  understand to be a perfectly ordinary light meal in Jollie Olde, has a bit of an effete air in the minds of my fellow beer'n'pretzels/coffee'n'donuts 'Mericans. I'm going to say, extrapolating from that assumption, that Bubbles is using that to suggest the people who discuss her people in abstract academic terms are quite disconnected from Real Life (TM). And Faye is twitting Bubbles about her word choice, as friends will.

[sitnspin]

To be fair, I had a professor at university who regularly invited us to tea and crumpets.

[fayelovesbubbles]

Yup. Evie was the problem.

[JRDelirio]

I do find it a little odd that Bubbles doesn't interpret Faye's "tea and crumpets" suggestion as a glib remark. To my knowledge people in the U.S. almost never suggest that in earnest.

I read it as Faye asking "Tea and Crumpets? Where did you get that from? We're in the US - nobody suggests Tea and Crumpets, not even rich people's children ..."

  Yep, got that same impression.  She's teasing her as to how even if Evie is looking at Bubs from the Ivory Tower, that would be an unexpected way to think of it these days.   

Evie of course is entirely oblivious to her bioprivileged frame of reference -- as is to be expected, since in that context the "privileged" position is the one assumed to be the default so it is not even noticed by those holding it.

[Shaitan051]

Yes, it is a real issue that affects real people. Possibly all people. So how about we don't brush it aside as a debate for "rich people's children" because it makes you uncomfortable, Ms Literal Warbot?

Ms Literal Warbot that actually met an "AI God", unbound by law and morality, and therefore knows damn well that humanities fears are completely justified.

[SpanielBear]

Yes, it is a real issue that affects real people. Possibly all people. So how about we don't brush it aside as a debate for "rich people's children" because it makes you uncomfortable, Ms Literal Warbot?

Ms Literal Warbot that actually met an "AI God", unbound by law and morality, and therefore knows damn well that humanities fears are completely justified.

I get the feeling that Bubbles wasn't objecting to the debate so much as how it was raised. Evie was talking about wide ranging social issues as though they were entirely abstract, ignoring the fact that to Bubbles this is something she lives with and experiences daily.

I'm trying hard to think of a sensitive way to rephrase the analogy, but saying "in some ways AI's are as dangerous as nukes" is not a neutral statement when as far as Bubbles is concerned, Evie was saying "In some ways *you* are as dangerous as nukes". Evie saying that also carried with it a subtext (an unintentional subtext) of "so obviously you cannot fit in to our society, the friendships you are making are illusory and to humanity artificial lives will always be fearsome and "other"". I can see why Bubbles would find this massively upsetting.

You are right that the existence of spookybot and the powers Station has demonstrated are potential threats. But so are many things. I live in England, a country known for incredibly tight gun laws. Following the spate of terrorist attacks last summer, armed police were patrolling public areas for about a week. Seeing men with assault weapons in a shopping centre was deeply, deeply disturbing. It felt like we were sacrificing liberty through fear. Also, freaking men with guns, it is really hard to get across how unsettling that is in this country. So a debate about the need for armed civilian police in our country in that case would be legitimate. Telling those men to their faces that they represented a threat to my way of life just as much as the terrorists did would *definately* be out of order.

Evie has a right to debate and study the relationship between AI's and humanity. She has a responsibilty to do so with sensitivity. She failed to do so, and ended up being rude.

[Shaitan051]

Telling those men to their faces that they represented a threat to my way of life just as much as the terrorists did would *definately* be out of order.

and utterly ludicrous. 



When it comes to the possible destruction/enslavement of the human race, "am I being rude to the living example of what we fear?" is the least of your worries. (How the hell did she get to keep her armour let alone her current body, which is almost certainly government issued?)

[SpanielBear]

Telling those men to their faces that they represented a threat to my way of life just as much as the terrorists did would *definately* be out of order.

and utterly ludicrous. 

When it comes to the possible destruction/enslavement of the human race, "am I being rude?" is the least of your worries.

It is if you are talking to a sentient agent. If nothing else, if you are legitimately concerned that they are a risk to humanity (and for the record, I don't think Evie does think that), surely being polite would be basic self preservation...

[Shaitan051]

Telling those men to their faces that they represented a threat to my way of life just as much as the terrorists did would *definately* be out of order.

and utterly ludicrous. 

When it comes to the possible destruction/enslavement of the human race, "am I being rude?" is the least of your worries.

It is if you are talking to a sentient agent. If nothing else, if you are legitimately concerned that they are a risk to humanity (and for the record, I don't think Evie does think that), surely being polite would be basic self preservation...

"Be nice to robots or DIE", yeah nothing to worry about there.

[SpanielBear]

"Be nice to robots or DIE", yeah nothing to worry about there.

I get the feeling you are deliberately misrepresenting my point here, but okay. Put another way- why do you want to be rude to Bubbles?

[Is it cold in here?]

Being decent to the person in front of you is usually a good thing to put on top of your worry list.

QC world is post-Singularity. There's no need to guess the intentions of AIs. Now that they run the world, QC people can simply look at their actions.

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power

[Shaitan051]

"Be nice to robots or DIE", yeah nothing to worry about there.

I get the feeling you are deliberately misrepresenting my point here, but okay. Put another way- why do you want to be rude to Bubbles?

I get the feeling you are deliberately misrepresenting my point here...


It is a very serious issue, potentially genocidally serious, and transcends Bubbles hurt feelings. I'm being somewhat meta here, things will be fine in the comic because it's a comic, but if the comic has any connection to our potential future we're talking about potential human extinction.
 
Flame bait removed by moderator

[brasca]

It could've been worse.  Bubbles could've been stuck talking to a philosophy student.  Those people will bore you to death. 

But seriously, I can understand why Bubbles is irritated since no one really wants their existence scrutinized and summarized into one thesis statement, but I would think she'd keep in mind the person who's writing this isn't using their research to justify an anti-AI political agenda. 

Perhaps Evie was tone deaf which tends to happen in academia, but at the end of the day she means well.   

[Tova]

To be fair, I had a professor at university who regularly invited us to tea and crumpets.

I've never been invited to tea and crumpets.

Tea and scones, yes.

And I'll just make a general remark that it is clear to me that Bubbles would be perfectly happy to have a discussion about AIs in society, just not with someone who speaks about the topic without empathy and as though it is a purely academic conversation that affects no-one.

[TheEvilDog]

Honestly, I'd take the scones over the crumpets.

[Sorflakne]

It could've been worse.  Bubbles could've been stuck talking to a philosophy student. 

Isn't puzzling out existence a big part of several branches of philosophy?

[SpanielBear]

It could've been worse.  Bubbles could've been stuck talking to a philosophy student. 

Isn't puzzling out existence a big part of several branches of philosophy?

One part, certainly. The other part is working out an answer to the question "Isn't puzzling out existence a big part of several branches of philosophy?" 

[OldGoat]

"Garbage person" seems to be a weakly euphemistic term for "white trash," but it's got a feeling of finality to it that the latter doesn't carry.  No recycling here, just toss 'em into the compost bin - they're worth more to the world as worm castings.

I've known white trash like Faye.  All in all, they're often better people than those folks Mark Twain called "the Quality," in spite of their faults.  Especially the fundamentally honest ones like Faye.


Edit - My apologies if this seems out of context.  I'm finding this tablet screen a challenge when it comes to following a thread.

[Is it cold in here?]

To be fair, I had a professor at university who regularly invited us to tea and crumpets.

I've never been invited to tea and crumpets.

Tea and scones, yes.

And I'll just make a general remark that it is clear to me that Bubbles would be perfectly happy to have a discussion about AIs in society, just not with someone who speaks about the topic without empathy and as though it is a purely academic conversation that affects no-one.

That is a discussion I would really enjoy reading.

[MrNumbers]

Again, a conversation requires two participants. As I said before, Bubbles being hurt by it can be more seen as a reflection of Bubbles than Evie.

Like, if Evie took the exact same tact with Momo we would have seen a really cool discussion, for instance. Ev isn't psychic, she didn't dismiss Bubbles offense when it was brought up, she seems pretty empathetic in a lot of other ways. Bubbles just has a chip on her shoulder which happened to get homed in on with laser precision, which sucks.

So like... chill out, guys?

[Is it cold in here?]

Hmm. I'm thinking of Momo reminding Clinton pointedly about her people's long struggle for civil rights. She might have done the same when Evie talked about how wonderful it was to have Others around who weren't the subject of racist "baggage".

Since Momo sees her calling as being an inter-species ambassador she might have explained things at greater length, if she
had been able to get a word in edgewise. On past form she would have been even more direct about Evie's approach being hurtful.

[BenRG]

So, I'm thinking that basically, Jeph is using this strip to attack 'mansplaining' and its cousins; he's calling out all the so-called 'experts' who try to explain away people's sense of alienation and persecution. Basically, Evie was condescendingly claiming to understand Bubbles's struggles and feelings better than someone who actually lived them.

The thing is that I'm sure Evie would have been horrified if Bubbles had actually come out and expressed this to her. The thought that she had been condescending and belittling Bubbles would have been like a punch to the gut. However, as we discussed last week, one of the great problems with the academic mindset in the social sciences is that one easily loses track of the real people behind the data.

Meanwhile, as an Englishman, I have to say this: Every kind of philosophical discussion is better with tea and crumpets. Every kind.

Oh, and with regard to Panel 4, is Jeph experimenting with using David M Willis's 'red panels' to communicate a character experiencing traumatic emotions or flashbacks?

[sitnspin]

I see this a lot with the (mostly white) academics that study indigenous cultures. Those folks who have the privilege of looking at our history "objectively" are rarely those who have had to live with the consequences of it.

[fayelovesbubbles]

"Bubbles needs to chill, Evie didn't mean any harm."

Gee, where have I heard something like that before? Oh yes, white people telling me how to feel about racism, men telling me how to feel about misogyny and straight people telling me how to feel about homophobia.

[pwhodges]

I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't get to enjoy hot buttered crumpets:

[Morituri]

For a lot of people speech about violent acts are just a class of casual metaphor, or even a sign of affection or care, and shouldn't be understood as literal threats.  Faye is such a person.  "You better do such-and-such or I'll kick your butt" honestly is one of the ways she might express "Doing such-and-such would be good for you and I care about you enough that I'm going to pester to do it, because I want what's best for you (but I don't want this to sound sappy so I'm going to play like it's aggressive, rar)." 

That can make her very hard to be around and hard to interpret, for people who have trouble with metaphor and sarcasm.  Or for people who've lived in environments where every mention of violence has corresponded to an absolutely real threat of violence. 

Some people can be provoked, with sufficient cause, if you do something magnificently horrible, to real violence.  Faye is such a person.  You seriously traumatize someone she cares about, steal years of their life with a deception, lose their memories, exploit their work, and then try for extortion?  Uh, yeah, okay, she lost her temper and *ACTUALLY* punched somebody in the face.  She does have a temper, but it doesn't look like she's so uncontrolled that anyone who hasn't done something magnificently horrible has anything to worry about.

What I want to point out though is that her (rare) genuine acts of violence have never had anything whatsoever to do with her (frequent) use of violence in figures of speech and metaphors.  People are in no physical danger when she threatens them with violence; it almost has the same connotations as saying 'please' except more aggressively.  She absolutely never threatens anyone she's really going to punch. 

Conversely, I don't think I remember ever seeing her actually punch anybody she cared enough about to threaten - with the possible exception of Pintsize, and that was kind of a running gag with him for a while.

[Akima]

Gee, where have I heard something like that before? Oh yes, white people telling me how to feel about racism, men telling me how to feel about misogyny and straight people telling me how to feel about homophobia.

Yeah... Often.

I see this a lot with the (mostly white) academics that study indigenous cultures.

Mmm... And the (mostly white) comparative-religion types who want to talk my ear off about Buddhism, when they have essentially the same attitude towards it that an entomologist has towards beetles.

[BenRG]

Conversely, I don't think I remember ever seeing her actually punch anybody she cared enough about to threaten - with the possible exception of Pintsize, and that was kind of a running gag with him for a while.

Jeph went through a 'The Three Stooges'-type sitcom phase for a while when Dora was living at the apartment. Pintsize was the oblivious pest/creep who completely failed to respond to threats or even physical violence and just carried right on being vile and obnoxious. Bottom line: It wasn't just Faye who regularly beat up Pintsize. Momo did it too as did Sam and Emily. Recently Bubbles crushed his head for daring to discuss Faye's 'assets'; it's just his role in the slapstick end of the comic.

[Tova]

I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't get to enjoy hot buttered crumpets ...

As an Australian, ...



I'm hungry now.

[pwhodges]

I suppose Vegemite is an acceptable alternative to Marmite in context.

[Tova]

Marmite is a little harder to find in Australia, unfortunately*.

This is exacerbated by the fact that Australian company Sanitarium trademarked the term Marmite first. So if we want the real deal, we have to look out for jars of Our Mate.

* I do prefer Marmite these days. Tell no-one.

[pwhodges]

Your secret is safe with me and the Internet.

[traroth]

"Bubbles needs to chill, Evie didn't mean any harm."

Gee, where have I heard something like that before? Oh yes, white people telling me how to feel about racism, men telling me how to feel about misogyny and straight people telling me how to feel about homophobia.

Every single one of us is a study subject for various science disciplines. Medecine, psychology, sociology... They all study us in a distantiated, depassionated way. And that's actually fine, because that's how science works.

[TinPenguin]

Tova what have you done to those poor innocent crumpets.

(I'd jokingly call you a garbage person but I'd probably get banned given current forum mood)

[traroth]

At some point, I liked crumpets, with butter and jam. Now, I think it's too squishy...

[Tova]

Tova what have you done to those poor innocent crumpets.

My mother never did approve. What can I say?

[maneyan]

"Bubbles needs to chill, Evie didn't mean any harm."

Gee, where have I heard something like that before? Oh yes, white people telling me how to feel about racism, men telling me how to feel about misogyny and straight people telling me how to feel about homophobia.

Every single one of us is a study subject for various science disciplines. Medecine, psychology, sociology... They all study us in a distantiated, depassionated way. And that's actually fine, because that's how science works.

Pretty much this. From where I'm seeing it, the issue is not with Evie per se, it's simply with the fact that Bubbles is hypersensitive to these issues and can't really deal with that kind of scrutiny. This, after all, is a PTSD-suffering veteran whose main coping mechanism we've seen thus far is explosive violence towards things (that and tea admittedly). Still, it's this kind of scrutiny that is needed to build a greater understanding between people. Thus far we've seen laser-armed sociopath-bots (Pintsize), giant walker death robots (Deathbot 9000), 2.5 meter emotionally unstable Terminators (Bubbles), an omniscient demigod-bot etc. If that's the AI lineup I'm gonna say that "sorry, humanity is trying to understand you and being perceived as rude does not take precedence"

EDIT: Having reviewed the thread a bit more, I'm going to simply say "Yeah, Evie could have been way more diplomatic". Still: Bubbles should have been more clear she personally took offense. "Some might find that offensive" pretty much means "Some, not me", at least where I'm standing.

[Tova]

"Bubbles needs to chill, Evie didn't mean any harm."

Gee, where have I heard something like that before? Oh yes, white people telling me how to feel about racism, men telling me how to feel about misogyny and straight people telling me how to feel about homophobia.

Every single one of us is a study subject for various science disciplines. Medecine, psychology, sociology... They all study us in a distantiated, depassionated way. And that's actually fine, because that's how science works.

I mean, yes of course. That is fine.

That doesn't mean doctors, for example, start telling their patients what their pain feels like.

If you think that Bubbles is upset about AIs being studied, then you are not grasping today's comic. At all.

[Jakk Frost]

Telling those men to their faces that they represented a threat to my way of life just as much as the terrorists did would *definately* be out of order.

and utterly ludicrous. 

When it comes to the possible destruction/enslavement of the human race, "am I being rude?" is the least of your worries.

It is if you are talking to a sentient agent. If nothing else, if you are legitimately concerned that they are a risk to humanity (and for the record, I don't think Evie does think that), surely being polite would be basic self preservation...

AKA "Let the wookiee win".

[maneyan]

Telling those men to their faces that they represented a threat to my way of life just as much as the terrorists did would *definately* be out of order.

and utterly ludicrous. 

When it comes to the possible destruction/enslavement of the human race, "am I being rude?" is the least of your worries.

It is if you are talking to a sentient agent. If nothing else, if you are legitimately concerned that they are a risk to humanity (and for the record, I don't think Evie does think that), surely being polite would be basic self preservation...

AKA "Let the wookiee win".

Even, in a way, minorities feeling they need to be more respectful to white people because white people hold disproportionately much more power and could do way more things to the minorities than vice versa.

[JoeCovenant]

I've never been invited to tea and crumpets.

I've you're ever in Dundee (Scotland) consider this an open invitation!

[WoaLG]

I'm sure many of you have already seen this, but it's still interesting and I feel it's relevant to the current conversation. Jeph wrote a speech for a fictional UN meeting about AI rights on his Tumblr.

http://jephjacques.com/post/14655843351/un-hearing-on-ai-rights

I understand Evie's curiosity, but you've still gotta be considerate of others. And comparing AIs to nuclear weapons seems like a bad idea, no matter how much May wants to be fighter jet.

[Tova]

I've never been invited to tea and crumpets.

I've you're ever in Dundee (Scotland) consider this an open invitation!

Why, thank you! How could I refuse such an offer?   

I've been to Scotland only once, all too briefly, and never to Dundee. A future visit is certainly on the cards.

[JoeCovenant]

I'm torn about this whole thing.
I love Bubbles.
I totally understood Evi's reason for looking into what she was looking into.

Was Evi pretty insensitive to Bubbles feelings?
Yes... and No...
As has been said above, with some AIs in this universe that comment could have led to a genuinely interesting and maybe enlightening discussion.

But Bubbles has (for want of a better phrase) a robo-variant of PTSD, and such a comparison was always going to be a bit touchy for her.
But Evi didn't know this.
And there's where the problem lies.

Should Evi, as an academic, NOT pursue avenues of conversation?
It could be argued that Bubbles, as an ex war-bot, might be touchy on this subject...
But then, Bubbles is 'probably' not the norm for such creatures.
After all, we've seen the *rage* side of Bubbles spill over into violence - and it's only through interaction with *the cast* that this has toned down and lessened.
For all we know, Bubbles was to all intents and purposes "illegal" - after all, why would an ex military, fully armed (or at least armoured and chassis-d ) ex-warbot be released into the wild?

So - maybe Evi acted out of sheer curiosity, taking it as read that there probably should not BE any PTSD war-bots "on the streets".
(Which again leads to a VERY interesting potential discussion and the parallels of Human War Vets and AI Warbots being left unprepared for Civvy life.)

Also...
People should maybe take their foot off the gas a bit when it comes to decrying Evi for being concerned about AIs (of the war variety) being as dangerous as a nuke... remember, it's pretty much all popular culture has been feeding us forever! 

Sometimes literally...

[BenRG]

I've taken a few minutes to re-read Evie's mini-lecture. Really, all she had to do was slightly reword things. She really did come across as saying she considered Synthetics as a latent threat to humanity much the same way that the proliferation of WMDs demonstrably are and that she considered it remarkable that so few humans are reacting appropriately. So, yes, thinking about her chosen wording in panel 3 of strip 3656 in isolation, she does come across as bigoted. However, taking the strip as a whole, I think that it is more poor communication on her part than anything more malicious.

IMO, Evie could have defused a lot of the problem if she's put it this way:

"Humans just don't typically seem to respond aggressively to non-immediate risks and this strongly indicates that the fear of the unknown and the actual threat response instinct are either decoupled in the human mind or at least that this 'different = bad' equation is a low action priority in the average psyche. The point I'm making is that anti-Synthetic activism is a learned behaviour rather than an instinctual response to the unknown or a threat. These people hate because they want to have something to hate; they found something and taught themselves to respond appropriately."

[Akima]

Every single one of us is a study subject for various science disciplines. Medecine, psychology, sociology... They all study us in a distantiated, depassionated way. And that's actually fine, because that's how science works.

"Works" includes some pretty ugly things, which revealed ugly things about the attitudes of those carrying out the studies. Consider the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment, or Unit 631. The notion that a "distantiated, depassionated" study is necessarily fine, and therefore suspicion, and even hostility, from those being studied is unjustified, is certainly not one that I'd accept.

[Piscador]

I have to admit, the turn of events in #3668 caught me by surprise.

I really expected that Bubbles would be thoroughly pissed off with Faye, not Evie. Faye behaved horribly towards Melon. It wasn't just the condescending tone and words (although the whole 'domesticated robo-dick' dialog *was* pretty funny), it was the way that Faye took advantage of Melon's naiveté and accepted $100 for telling her to get batteries.

Bubbles and Faye's long-term business prospects depend on the good will of the AI community. I imagine that if something like that got out, their business would be damaged beyond repair.

[Zebediah]

I’d like to back this conversation up a few steps, because I think we may be criticizing Evie for the wrong thing.

Evie is supposedly studying AI psychology. But looking back over Evie’s lecture to Bubbles, she’s actually not talking about AI psychology at all. She’s talking about human responses to AI. She’s not studying AI psychology, but rather human psychology as it relates to AIs. And everyone missed that. She may not be aware of it herself. (Shoot, it’s possible that Jeph might not be aware of what he did here.)

And that, in my opinion, is the real reason that Bubbles should be offended by Evie’s speech. Evie looks at AIs but doesn’t see them - she sees only the reflection of her own kind. The real AI experience is lost. I imagine her AI colleague who is studying her would have some interesting things to say about what this means.

[Case]

I’d like to back this conversation up a few steps, because I think we may be criticizing Evie for the wrong thing.

Evie is supposedly studying AI psychology. But looking back over Evie’s lecture to Bubbles, she’s actually not talking about AI psychology at all. She’s talking about human responses to AI. She’s not studying AI psychology, but rather human psychology as it relates to AIs. And everyone missed that. She may not be aware of it herself. (Shoot, it’s possible that Jeph might not be aware of what he did here.)

And that, in my opinion, is the real reason that Bubbles should be offended by Evie’s speech. Evie looks at AIs but doesn’t see them - she sees only the reflection of her own kind. The real AI experience is lost. I imagine her AI colleague who is studying her would have some interesting things to say about what this means.

Actually, Evie's field is "post-singularity psychology" - which I'd assume means human psychology (Could be wrong, of course - but a) Why would humans not default to themselves, we do it all the time even amongst our own, as Sitnspin & Akima have pointed out above b) AI are a very young species).

That changes nothing about her talking right over Bubbles and not seeing her, and that not being OK.

It would, however, provide an answer to IICIH's question from previous WCDT's: Why she, as a researcher, isn't being more sensitive - didn't she get any sort of briefings on how to behave around members of the culture she studies? (*) Nope, she didn't, since AI aren't her research subject, humans are. And she isn't an "AI-anthropologist", either - she's a human psychologist studying the effects of the presence of AI on human psyche.


(*) The 'topic' seems to be well-known amongst anthropologist since at least the late 60's -> Googlebooks "Indians and Anthropologists", the intro page is quite ... instructive.

I think I also recall seeing some 'best practises' recommendations for newbie anthropologists studying native Americans. The list was quite long.