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sitnspin:
Interesting. Shadowrun is wicked clunky and rules heavy. I was a fan of the world building and aesthetics of SR, but when it came to mechanics and game design, it was woefully disappointing. But that's just mho.

oddtail:

--- Quote from: sitnspin on 11 Sep 2018, 01:23 ---Interesting. Shadowrun is wicked clunky and rules heavy. I was a fan of the world building and aesthetics of SR, but when it came to mechanics and game design, it was woefully disappointing. But that's just mho.

--- End quote ---

It all boils down to personal opinion eventually, but elaborate rules of SR work if you run it as a fiddly game where everything needs to be planned, down to the tiniest detail. Which works if the game is played as a series of assignments, each of which has to be meticulously planned. Then, I think the fiddly bits reinforce the feeling. Simple, streamlined rules just wouldn't allow for every single detail to be pored over, not as far as game rules go.

In other words - to me, SR is not meant to be a thrilling action game, not exclusively. It's a game about planning a heist or an attack, and for that, game mechanics that have as many moving parts as possible are expected or at least acceptable.

I'll agree the game is more than a little unwieldy. It's certainly a pain. But I've played unwieldy games that I thought were great, in the past. I moved on from Pathfinder to D&D 5E because as a GM, I felt Pathfinder was an absolute nightmare to prepare for. Still ran a campaign of three-and-a-half years in PF before moving on  :-D

sitnspin:
Fair, although I think there are games that do the whole heist thong far better than SR does. But, as you said, ultimately it comes down to a matter of personal taste.

Neko_Ali:
I can't really argue with how fiddly the Shadowrun system is, especially compared to something like D&D 5e. For some background I played Shadowrun 1-3 when they were current and in an era when fiddly games were the norm. D&D 2-3.5, Palladium games, Hero System games, that sort of thing. So I didn't feel that it was any more or less complicated than other games I played. Fast forward a significant gap of years when I wasn't playing RPGs and I wind up playing D&D 5e again. Which is a lot more rules streamlined than I remember. And some members of my group expressed an interest in playing Shadowrun, so I agree to run for them. I took a look at 5th edition and found the character creation rules to be a bit of a nightmare. And the book I got was coming apart after only a few days of gentle use, so I wound up sending it back. So I decided to run 4e instead, since I already had books for it.

For those that don't remember or don't know, 4e was the point where the game was handed off to a different developer because FASA went under, and the way the game worked went under some major changes. It still felt Shadowrun, but there was more rules added to it, how dice checks were made was different and all sorts of things. 5e doubled down on some of that, and better explained some things. Matrix rules in 4e are.... Not good. They are still somewhat over complex I feel in 5e, but they are at least better defined.

Now me... I run games with a narrative basis. Telling an interesting co-operative story is my priority and as such I'm happy to bend or ignore the rules for that sake. I like games best when they provide more options for the players, rather than tightly codify what they can or can't do. I remember being able to do that fairly easily in early editions of Shadowrun. A few sessions in and still learning 4e, I'm not sure how true that is anymore. And I kind of wish I had pushed a little harder for Starfinder.

hedgie:

--- Quote from: Neko_Ali on 10 Sep 2018, 21:11 ---I mean, that's what I said and it makes sense to me but she's apparently had bad experiences and just isn't interested in trying again. Her big complaint was all the additional classes and such that came out... but like you said, if you're running the game you always have final say in what's allowed. She's not even interested in giving Starfinder a try and I really want a go at magic space adventures. I tried to pitch it as an option for our Sunday game but people mostly wanted to play Shadowrun. Which I don't mind since I love the setting and system.

--- End quote ---

I've found that for me, at least, learning the pathfinder system was pretty easy, especially that my prior gaming background was 1st/2nd ed AD&D (the systems were compatible so could be blended), the players' and GM's entire library of splatbooks, AND the labyrinthine mix of house rules and GM rulings that resembled something approaching Common Law.[1]  In comparison, the entire Pathfinder ruleset is a breath of fresh air.  That said, once I finish with the world building, I will end up paring and altering the class list to adapt it to what I want.

IMO, the full list of options for players isn't that bad if there is a GM, and there are other players willing to walk one through the process.[2]  Our newest player, who hadn't played since High School a dozen or so years ago wasn't actually intimidated by the classes, since she knew what role she wanted to serve, but jumped into the deep end of the pool by not only rolling a cleric, but doing so in a game where she'd be starting at 14th level.  Once various options were explained to her and with assistance with the details, she's been able to build something that she seems happy with, and has been *very* effective in just the first session where she's been statted up.

[1] Our resident rules lawyer actually had a binder full of precedents with their dates for easy reference, and despite that, we still talked shit about Shadowrun being so clunky that one combat round was the entire gaming session.

[2] Rather than punish min-maxing, my group's GM helps the players do so effectively.

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