Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
oddtail:
--- Quote from: soulofthereaver on 08 Feb 2019, 00:20 ---
--- Quote from: BenRG on 08 Feb 2019, 00:11 ---Basically, Brun's ethnicity shouldn't matter. He's defining her by her racial background and, at the very least, that is a bit dehumanising.
--- End quote ---
I get where you're coming from, but that makes quite a few assumptions about the asker's motivations. Sure Paco here is just interested because he thinks her perceived exoticness is sexy (which is blargh of him), but what about someone who asks out of simple curiosity, or just honest desire to know more about the other person?
Is it fair to suspect racism, dismissal, or even such strong a word as dehumanization, just from that kind of question?
--- End quote ---
Not an American and I'm pretty much as white as they get. So offering an outside perspective - you'll do well to listen to people who have actual experience with race-related issues. I'm both talking about this in theoretical terms, AND might get things wrong or miss something.
That being said:
You're making two awfully big assumptions here, even if you're not stating them explicitly. Both are, in my view, wrong.
The first is that your intent makes things OK that would not otherwise be OK. Specifically, that if you don't mean something as racist, then it isn't racist. This can be true, but doesn't have to.
Note that the question about ethnicity is almost always phrased as "where are you from?" or similar. It's about ethnicity, but it's about ethnicity in a very specific way. It assumes that someone not looking a certain way is not the default, and therefore worthy of scrutiny. In other words, non-white people are strange enough to warrant questions if your intent is benign.
This has implications, and pretty racist ones. American culture is theoretically built on individualism and, in modern times, equality. Trying to pinpoint someone on the world map implies that they're not actually American (note: you ask specifically because you want to know where they're "from". You're immediately jumping to a conclusion that even if they were born in the USA, they're not "really" from here. That their ethnicity means they're also from somewhere else). White people don't usually get asked that. From what I hear, that almost never happens. This is inherently racist. Non-Hispanic white people in the US are at 63% and the percentage is decreasing. But it's assumed a white person is not from Germany, France or Russia. The default assumption is that they're "from here".
It's also a matter of connotations with the question. Racism exists in America and shaped its history, and when you say something, you share whatever baggage the words you uttered have. You don't get to claim ignorance. Asking a loaded question just because you're innocent in intent doesn't make the question any less troubling. Today's comic actually illustrates this pretty well, by Brun being clueless about the implications of the question. See, nobody's blaming Brun. But we know from the comic that she often asks extremely improper questions. She can be excused to an extent and it's often played for comedy, but it's generally understood some of the things she says are generally considered rude. That's WHY she stands out and her questions register as unusual and/or funny. They're things to say that are improper, usually.
Which brings me to the second way I think you're missing something important. Such a question would be inappropriate even in the ideal fantasy world where racism doesn't exist. It's a question that comes out of nowhere. You say it may be asked just to "learn as much as possible about a person".
Except, no it isn't. You see the way someone looks that you don't even know, and you ask them about their looks. This is inappropriate for the exact same reason you don't ask an obese person "so, why are you so fat? Is this a health thing or...?". It's invasive, and inherently judgmental. Like the person has to explain their health history (and with race, genetic history) to you? It's not a casual, get-to-know-you-better question. You don't ask strangers such questions, because it's rude even if SOMEHOW racism is not a potential factor (and it always is, see above). You're immediately making the judgment that you need to know this physical thing about a person, and that's a good conversation starter? Why, exactly?
See, theoretically asking a person about their ethnicity might be acceptable. Either because you need to know that for a legitimate reason, or you know the person well and you're asking about their family history because you're genuinely curious. But if you're not close friends with someone, in USA culture you generally don't pry into their private life. You don't necessarily ask about their childhood, or parents, or other such things. Asking about ethnicity is like asking about family history, and nobody does that casually to a stranger. And also, it raises the question about why you thought this was the first question to ask.
So to sum up, when you ask about ethnicity:
1) you're exoticising a person and treating them like a curious animal, not a person.
2) You're unaware or you decide to ignore the history of racism in the US, which is there whether you claim innocence or not.
3) You ask a very personal question that is just not that appropriate irrespective of racial baggage.
4) You focus on someone's looks and you pry into something that you honestly have no business being interested about if the two of you aren't very close.
5) You, consciously or not, paint being white as a default that someone not fitting has to somehow explain or have stories about or elaborate on. Something that doens't happen to white people usually.
6) If you frame the question as "where are you from?", the unspoken question is really "you're not white, so there's a high chance you're not American even if you were born here. It's different and requires more scrutiny and reframing even if nothing about you otherwise indicates that's actually true".
7) If you're immediately curious about someone's ethnicity and you're not, like, an anthropologist or geneticist (who still shouldn't ask overly personal questions), it's debatable if it's actual curiosity. Why would you ask THIS specific question of a person? You're implying it's OK for you to pry just because you're "curious".
And note - all I've written is just the tip of an iceberg. Anything ethnicity related has connotations and hidden meaning and entanglements that reach back hundreds of years even if you're being conservative. By necessity, I can't explain the history of race relations and colonialism in one post, even if I knew it all ;)
soulofthereaver:
--- Quote from: Thrillho on 08 Feb 2019, 00:50 ---Or if you're white, have you been to a country for a prolonged period where you are a minority?
--- End quote ---
I have. I've spent a year in the Netherlands as an exchange student, hailing from an eastern european country that the dutch have some pretty.... strong views on.
I was talked down to, talked about behind my back by people who assumed i did not speak the language, scammed twice by bus drivers (long story), and had a few other "pleasant" conversations that i care not to recall in any detail.
And yes, i've even had the conversation where i was asked where i was from, and my answer prompted an "oh..." whose meaning was quite apparent. But here's the rub, you could always tell those people. Their general attitude towards you, their manner of speech, and other bits of context betrayed exactly why they were asking the question. In other circumstances, where i got the same from earnest, friendly people, i never got upset or suspected them of xenophobia, as the way in which they asked was completely different. You can usually tell people who want to make friends from twats who want to label and "other" you.
This is why i doubt the question alone qualifies as racism, context matters a lot.
Edit: holy wall of text, Batman.
In reply to oddtail, yes i get that we're talking about a minefield of racially exclusionary and xenophobic history that stretches its ugly tendrils into today. I understand that this really complicates matters. But in addition to my above remark about context, i'd add two things.
One, everything you said applies more the less you know about a person and hurry to learn their provenance, that shows you care little about the person, and more about how to better label them.
Two, i'd like to question the a priori assumption in the sentence where you said i assumed "intent makes things OK that would not otherwise be OK." I'm saying rather that whether something is ok or not has to do a great deal with intent, and also in the way you make that intent known. I.E. asking such personal questions in appropriate settings, not breaking certain boundaries to do it, etc. I.E. Not the way Pedro did it. It was clear he didn't care one whit about the person he was asking about.
oddtail:
--- Quote from: soulofthereaver on 08 Feb 2019, 01:05 ---This is why i doubt the question alone qualifies as racism, context matters a lot.
--- End quote ---
But that's the thing. The speaker doesn't get to claim a certain context. The questions you ask and the things you say have cultural context you might not intend. Questions about race in America have certain connotations whether you (claim to) know it or not. See my post above.
soulofthereaver:
--- Quote from: oddtail on 08 Feb 2019, 01:10 ---
--- Quote from: soulofthereaver on 08 Feb 2019, 01:05 ---This is why i doubt the question alone qualifies as racism, context matters a lot.
--- End quote ---
But that's the thing. The speaker doesn't get to claim a certain context. The questions you ask and the things you say have cultural context you might not intend. Questions about race in America have certain connotations whether you (claim to) know it or not. See my post above.
--- End quote ---
Yes i saw your post above only after i posted my own, and i edited mine accordingly. As stated in the edit, i think you can make your intent clear from the time place and manner in which you make your inquiries; it following that there are ways in which it's proper to ask about ethnicity, if you mind common courtesy, basic empathy, and your relationship to the person you're conversing with.
oddtail:
--- Quote from: soulofthereaver on 08 Feb 2019, 01:19 ---it following that there are ways in which it's proper to ask about ethnicity, if you mind common courtesy, basic empathy, and your relationship to the person you're conversing with.
--- End quote ---
Yes. "I barely know you, but I'm curious" is arguably not among those ways. Which is the case in the comic, the dude's casually sexual exoticising notwithstanding.
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