Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
soulofthereaver:
--- Quote from: oddtail on 08 Feb 2019, 01:34 ---
--- Quote from: soulofthereaver on 08 Feb 2019, 01:29 ---
(...) if i do get someone who does that, i'd at worst assume they don't know how to deal with boundaries very well. I don't jump to racism as an explanation unless i get other signs of it as well.
--- End quote ---
Unconscious racism is still racism, though. Racism is not (just) about intent. It's about power structures and power relations. A person blissfully unaware that what they said has troubling racist connotations is still being racist, even if they have the best of intentions.
I think it's harmful to frame racism in overly individualistic terms. Racism is not about this person hating black people or that person being prejudiced against people from East Asia. Racism is about systemic problems. A person not being aware of the problems is not proof racism is not at play. If anything, I'd argue such ignorance usually reinforces the idea that racism is doing well.
TL;DR - racism can exist in absence of conscious, malevolent intent. It usually is the case.
--- End quote ---
Yeah that's an entirely different can of worms that is a lot more disturbing. There's a double standard there from what i've seen. I've heard the argument that racism is not neccesarily intentional, but at the same time even this unintended racism is treated as if it was, with people "guilty" of ignorance or at most insensitivity treated the same way as those who practice willful hatred of the "other"; i.e. in practice the same level of malice is assumed, and they get rebuked just as harshly. I've even encountered cases where that hostility has bred true racism over time. It's a hot mess.
oddtail:
--- Quote from: soulofthereaver on 08 Feb 2019, 01:50 ---
--- Quote from: oddtail on 08 Feb 2019, 01:34 ---
--- Quote from: soulofthereaver on 08 Feb 2019, 01:29 ---
(...) if i do get someone who does that, i'd at worst assume they don't know how to deal with boundaries very well. I don't jump to racism as an explanation unless i get other signs of it as well.
--- End quote ---
Unconscious racism is still racism, though. Racism is not (just) about intent. It's about power structures and power relations. A person blissfully unaware that what they said has troubling racist connotations is still being racist, even if they have the best of intentions.
I think it's harmful to frame racism in overly individualistic terms. Racism is not about this person hating black people or that person being prejudiced against people from East Asia. Racism is about systemic problems. A person not being aware of the problems is not proof racism is not at play. If anything, I'd argue such ignorance usually reinforces the idea that racism is doing well.
TL;DR - racism can exist in absence of conscious, malevolent intent. It usually is the case.
--- End quote ---
Yeah that's an entirely different can of worms that is a lot more disturbing. There's a double standard there from what i've seen. I've heard the argument that racism is not neccesarily intentional, but at the same time even this unintended racism is treated as if it was, with people "guilty" of ignorance or at most insensitivity treated the same way as those who practice willful hatred of the "other"; i.e. in practice the same level of malice is assumed, and they get rebuked just as harshly. I've even encountered cases where that hostility has bred true racism over time. It's a hot mess.
--- End quote ---
To use an analogy: if you step on my foot, I don't really care, in the moment, whether you meant to or not. I expect you to get off my foot and - ideally - apologise. Not to keep where you are and explain that you didn't mean to, and ask me why I'm so angry if that was an accident.
I think harsh reactions to benign racism are for the exact same reason. The person harmed is often expected to emphatise and educate and understand and stuff like that, and they have more pressing concerns. Their foot is currently hurting, metaphorically. And it has been stepped on dozens if not hundreds of times in the past.
Plus, plenty of actively racist people claim ignorance as a tactic to derail accusations aimed at them, so "he doesn't know any better" itself might be suspicious.
EDIT: also, what double standard? Could you elaborate?
soulofthereaver:
--- Quote from: oddtail on 08 Feb 2019, 01:59 ---To use an analogy: if you step on my foot, I don't really care, in the moment, whether you meant to or not. I expect you to get off my foot.
I think harsh reactions to benign racism are for the exact same reason. The person harmed is often expected to emphatise and educate and understand and stuff like that, and they have more pressing concerns. Their foot is currently hurting, metaphorically. And it has been stepped on dozens if not hundreds of times in the past.
Plus, plenty of actively racist people claim ignorance as a tactic to derail accusations aimed at them, so "he doesn't know any better" itself might be suspicious.
--- End quote ---
I understand where they're coming from, and i empathize with the reason, but i still don't think it's right. If someone steps on my foot in a crowd i'm not going to come swinging at them as if they intentionally hit me. And the more people who do lash out like that, the more aggression and distrust that breeds, and the harder it's gonna be to heal those wounds in the long term.
oddtail:
--- Quote from: soulofthereaver on 08 Feb 2019, 02:04 ---
--- Quote from: oddtail on 08 Feb 2019, 01:59 ---To use an analogy: if you step on my foot, I don't really care, in the moment, whether you meant to or not. I expect you to get off my foot.
I think harsh reactions to benign racism are for the exact same reason. The person harmed is often expected to emphatise and educate and understand and stuff like that, and they have more pressing concerns. Their foot is currently hurting, metaphorically. And it has been stepped on dozens if not hundreds of times in the past.
Plus, plenty of actively racist people claim ignorance as a tactic to derail accusations aimed at them, so "he doesn't know any better" itself might be suspicious.
--- End quote ---
I understand where they're coming from, and i empathize with the reason, but i still don't think it's right. If someone steps on my foot in a crowd i'm not going to come swinging at them as if they intentionally hit me. And the more people who do lash out like that, the more aggression and distrust that breeds, and the harder it's gonna be to heal those wounds in the long term.
--- End quote ---
YMMV, but I've seen at least an order of magnitude more claims of non-white people overreacting to racism than, y'know, actual non-white people overreacting to racism. I think it's a bit of a strawman. I've seen plenty of perfectly justified reactions that were framed as "overreaction", too, so there's that as well.
Plus, again with the "stepping on foot" analogy - I tend to cut a lot of slack to a person in pain, who's probably infuriated at having to calmly and politely explain that their foot is not to be stepped upon. Again, and again and again. I have yet to see a person who doesn't lose their cool (at least a little) after the tenth time something bad happens to them, even if it's a minor annoyance.
And I've seen a LOT of people (not jus POC, but e.g. women or people from the LGBT community) who tell stories of always having to be nice and polite and detached from their annoyances and always, ALWAYS explaining stuff to incredulous people, throughout their entire lives. Because the slightest misstep immediately gets framed as them being "angry", "hostile", "irrational" and "overreacting". This narrative is so common that I can't possibly treat it as isolated situations. Seems to be the default to ANYone belonging to a disadvantaged, marginalised or minority group. If you react badly to racism or what-have-you, you're immediately (many people say) the ambassador of your entire race or gender or seual orientation.
So again, I'm not that keen to sympathise with the poor person who was being racist or sexist or whatever, had the best intentions, and now their precious feelings are hurt because someone yelled at them or even, gasp, snarked at them or weren't 100% polite all the time. And, once more, I've seen a LOT of situations like that.
jesslc:
(I wrote this immediately after seeing today's comic, and have only briefly skimmed the existing discussion but Thank you Oddtail).
Thank you Jeph!
As a biracial person living in Australia, I really appreciate Jeph pointing out how annoying and gross this interaction is. I'm usually not much of a fan of Renee but in this comic I like that she starts to get irritated with Peter from the moment he asks Brun where she's from.
It feels very true to my lived experience - which is that in Australia the question "Where are you from?" is usually just a thinly disguised way of asking "Why is your skin that colour?"
(Warning: rant incoming)
Why do I believe that this is what's happening when people ask me where I'm from? Because SO many times when a person asks me the first question, they will not stop questioning me until they get an answer to the second question. If I answer the first question with the simple truth "I'm from Perth", then they want to know where my parents are from or what's my ethnicity or my nationality, etc. The only time the conversation doesn't go this way is if I shortcut the process by answering "Where are you from?" with something that also gives them the answer to their curiosity about my skin colour such as "I was born in here but my mum is from [country X] and my dad is from [country Y]"
If I don't give them the answer they want by saying something like "I'd rather not to talk about my ethnicity/background, let's talk about something else", the conversation typically ends up getting even awkward. Such as explicit comments on my skin tone, for example. It doesn't matter that it's a positive comments, it's still pointing out that they see me as different because of my skin colour. And/or they get annoyed that I won't satisfy their curiosity - like they think their curiosity is more important than my privacy.
I now dread the question "Where are you from?" - like Renee, I instantly regard it with suspicion. Is this going to be another one of the unpleasant conversations I have to keep having if I don't want to talk about my ethnicity with complete strangers? It's very rare that it's asked by someone who happily accepts me answering with an answer I feel comfortable giving (such as "I'm from Perth but both my parents are immigrants") and doesn’t push for details that will explain my skin tone. White people not only get asked "Where are you from?" much less frequently, they also get to answer "I'm from Perth" and have their answer be accepted without further digging.
So... to all people who ask this question, please stop picking the one thing that is visibly different about me to use for your choice of small talk. If you turn out to be someone I want to get to know more, the answer to your curiosity will probably naturally come up in conversation at some point as we share more about our lives as we get to know each other
And if you're not willing to wait until it comes up naturally, then you're not someone I want to know. Your curiosity does not trump my right to only share things I feel comfortable sharing. And this rant aside, my skin colour has much less relevancy to who I am as a person than anything else you could ask about - like my work, or how was my day/weekend, what I do for fun, things I enjoy, etc even with the topic of the weather - you'd likely learn how I don't notice the heat much but I feel the cold really badly (even in our very really quite mild winters).
I don't speak for all biracial or brown skinned people. I'm sure that there are some of them that don't mind this question. But I'm also sure I'm not the only brown person who is f***ing over it.
If you're going to go ahead and ask anyway, please do me (and other not-white people) the courtesy of recognising that born and bred Australians/Americans/Brits/etc can look like us. I don't actually mind people knowing I'm from Perth - it's the way that this question SO often leads to further probing about my ethnicity that makes me uncomfortable.
And please also confront your unconscious biases that people who look like me must be from somewhere else before you make it my problem. Thank you.
Okay rant over. And I didn't even touch on the grossness of him calling Brun exotic. Someone else will have to take that one on.
Oh, one more thing. If you haven't lived this experience, maybe go read this excellent 2016 article written by Megan Markle about this issue and the other ways that biracial and mixed race people are often told that we don't belong. Because it's constant and it's pervasive and I'm sick of it.
https://www.elle.com/uk/life-and-culture/news/a26855/more-than-an-other/
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