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Star Wars 9
Case:
--- Quote from: Castlerook on 02 Nov 2019, 15:37 ---From what I understand about the prophecy, Anakin did bring about balance to the Force - by slaughtering the Jedi and eventually killing Palpatine, he brought balance by removing the two toxic sides that were using the Force. He brought both sides down to nothing, leaving the galaxy open to new ideas and new interpretations.
--- End quote ---
I wouldn't call Luke 'nothing' ...
The EU explores that every now and then - particularly the Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi cycles have a nice twist on the whole balance-thingy. One of the Solo brats - they're all about Luke's level of talent (i.e. "Chosen One ++"), but Jacen turns out to be hilariously overpowered and becomes kind of 'Force-philosopher' to boot - goes on a quest to find other orders of Force users immediately after the end of a horrible war. One of the orders he visits regards the Jedi as violent, dangerous extremists.
It isn't quite spelled out, but the suggestion given over the course of those 'explorations into the backgrounds of Force-use' (largely in Fate of the Jedi) is that the Jedi kind of produce the Sith - not only as failed by-products of their training programmes, but as a necessary consequence of their particular way of using the Force-, their extreme adherence to one side.
Oh, and by being actually rather violent for an order ostensibly about peace and balance - one of the side-plots suggests that the Republic's very advanced prosthetic medical science is is an unintended consequence of the Jedi leaving legions of amputees in their wakes. Which in turn results in the Jedi becoming even less concerned about 'disarming' their opponents ...
P.S.: Or I got that all of that completely ass-backwards - I binged through most of the EU inside of three months a few years back, not bothering much with all the subtle clues and loose ends the EU writers tended to leave for each other to create those extremely long arcs. By the time I got to the big exposition at the end of FoTJ, I realized that those little hints had been kinda important ...
--- Quote from: Tova on 05 Nov 2019, 21:05 ---I also recall being surprised by the level of hate against Jar-Jar back in the day.
--- End quote ---
Same here - though that could have been a function of the allusions to pidgin and thus the racial overtones getting lost in the German-language dubbing.
--- Quote from: Tova on 05 Nov 2019, 21:05 ---... but I didn't like ewoks either ...
--- End quote ---
"You ... ! You MONSTER!" :cry:
--- Quote from: BenRG on 27 Nov 2019, 01:49 ---Jar-Jar is a good example of just how odd George Lucas's approach is to story-telling, at least from a neurotypical standpoint.
--- End quote ---
Trust me, he's weird to the atypical, too. :wink:
Case:
--- Quote from: JoeCovenant on 04 Nov 2019, 04:02 ---
--- Quote from: Akima on 01 Nov 2019, 06:21 ---
--- Quote from: BenRG on 01 Nov 2019, 02:40 ---The worst aspect is that she has been presented as a fully-fledged perfect heroine with no obvious explanation of where these skills come from.
--- End quote ---
Luke Skywalker jumped from crop-dusting farm-boy to ace fighter-pilot in a couple of days, with no explanation of where those skills came from,
--- End quote ---
Sorry, but I disagree.
Luke's latent skills are hinted at a couple of times during IV.
<...>
--- End quote ---
All true, and back in the 80s, few people bothered with Luke learning Force Pull without any instruction whatsoever, or besting the Chosen One with only the briefest rudiments of formal combat training under his belt. But then Eps. I-III retroactively opened up a giant plot-hole by using Anakin's 20 years of dedicated training as background plot.
So if Anakin was the Chosen One, the most talented and powerful Jedi in centuries, and still needed two decades of daily instruction by the best teachers in the Galaxy to develop those powers, what kind of Force-monster does that make Luke? Or Rey, for that matter? And how do you invent challenges for someone like that? Someone so extremely powerful that in his early 20s, he chops apart one of the best duelists in millennia after a bit of largely autodidactic practise every now and again? What kind of powers would someone like Luke Skywalker have in their thirties, forties or sixties, when they have practised for a few decades?
Timothy Zahn had a nice solution for that conundrum - By the time he enters middle-age, Luke has indeed become powerful enough to rip apart warships with his mind (He never does, he just ponders about Yoda and Palpatine likely having had the capability, and then asserts that he probably does, too), but discovers that the more he uses the Force to act on the Universe, the less sensitive he becomes to its 'guiding' aspects (like Force visions, or the defensive trance Jedi slip into when they deflect Blaster bolts).
--- Quote from: JoeCovenant on 04 Nov 2019, 04:02 ---But again, this is NOT Daisy's fault. Nor anything remotely to do with that fact that Rey is female.
It's bad writing, nothing more or less.
--- End quote ---
Not so much bad writing as writing the story you fell in love with as a kid over and over again. JJ Abrahams wasn't the first SW-writer to flog that dead horse, it's just that he's in his own league of awefull.
Methinks the 'Chosen One++' thingy was a permanent problem over the entire course of the EU already, long before Abrahams had a blast ruining other peoples' childhoods for the second time, and only a few writers like Zahn have found elegant solutions for the problem of inventing challenges for people who should be powerful enough to defeat mid-sized armies with a Force-sneeze.
JoeCovenant:
--- Quote from: Case on 27 Nov 2019, 15:49 ---
--- Quote from: JoeCovenant on 04 Nov 2019, 04:02 ---
--- Quote from: Akima on 01 Nov 2019, 06:21 ---
--- Quote from: BenRG on 01 Nov 2019, 02:40 ---The worst aspect is that she has been presented as a fully-fledged perfect heroine with no obvious explanation of where these skills come from.
--- End quote ---
Luke Skywalker jumped from crop-dusting farm-boy to ace fighter-pilot in a couple of days, with no explanation of where those skills came from,
--- End quote ---
Sorry, but I disagree.
Luke's latent skills are hinted at a couple of times during IV.
<...>
--- End quote ---
All true, and back in the 80s, few people bothered with Luke learning Force Pull without any instruction whatsoever, or besting the Chosen One with only the briefest rudiments of formal combat training under his belt.
--- End quote ---
The Dark Side...
IS the Dark Side stronger?
NO... quicker... easier to jopin in the fight.
Luke touched on that when he managed to take Vader down.
(One might then ask... how did he manage to push that temptation away...)
But we know he was with Yoda doing nothing BUT training for what, at least a year?
Still a feck of a lot more than Rey ever did.
TheEvilDog:
One of the deleted scenes was Obi Wan giving Luke "The Jedi Guide For Dummies". Lot of cliff notes in that.
Seriously though, I imagine that both Kenobi and Yoda realised the failings of the Jedi and when training Luke only gave him the barest lessons on the Jedi philosophy, giving him more of an emphasis on defending himself and using the Force and leaving it to him to start the foundation for a new Force based order. Hence why Yoda decided to burn what was left of the archive.
Tova:
--- Quote from: JoeCovenant on 28 Nov 2019, 01:53 ---But we know he was with Yoda doing nothing BUT training for what, at least a year?
--- End quote ---
We do? How do we know that? Sorry, not a hardcore fan here.
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