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[LightThievesAll]

Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Rob Zombie, Mastodon, and fucking Mudvayne?  That's just wrong.  I'm going for Maiden, Mastodon and Sabbath, but I feel awful that some of my money will benefit Shadows Fall and the other terrible bands playing.  I'm even more pissed because the rumor mill had it that the third headliner was going to be Anthrax with Joey Belladonna back as frontman, and I was very excited.

PS - Another reason to hate Mudvayne, they're touring with Life of Agony, and headlining over them.  I don't know if there are any LOA fans out there, but it's appalling that they ain't getting no respect.

[KharBevNor]

OMG U DIS MUDVYANE OLOL!?

But yes, this is the problem with most metal festivals. Have you seen download? They've turned a whole day over to fuking emo shite and mainstream 'alternative' rock and grunge.

This is why I'm trying to get to Graspop. It's like the same lineup but with way less gay.

[Kai]

This year's lineup, despite the addition of Iron Maiden, who I was hoping for, is a sever letdown. the ratio of good bands to bad bands is severly unbalanced in favor of bad bands. Course, it's hard to go from a lineup of Black Sabbath, Priest, Slayer, and Dimmu Borgir and come back with something new and even better.

[paradoxtitan]

Meh...i'm still contenplating on going. I've never been to Ozzfest and always wanted to. I heard this is the last year, and i really want to see Iron Maiden. And Rob Zombie. And Black Label Society. And Sabbath. But not the rest (that is...if there is some hidden gem at Ozzfest that i don't know about or haven't heard. Because i've only heard the ones that i've listed).
It's either this or Gigantour (w/ Megadeth and Dream Theater). If ticket prices are astronomical (like, more than $40), i probablly won't go.

-PT

[LightThievesAll]

There are a few other good bands on the bill, Arch Enemy for example.  Mastodon are unbelievable live, although I think they're also touring on their own this summer in addition to Ozzfest.  I would recommend checking them out.

[kikanjuuneko]

Shadows Fall kick your ass, dude.

Also: Killswitch Engage, The Haunted, The Black Dahlia Murder, Bury Your Dead and Trivium.

[ASturge]

im just happy to sit back and laugh at you metal fans and your funny named bands.....

"shadows fall"......hehe

[KharBevNor]

OmG ShAdoWs FalL RnT Met0L P0sEr

or something.

Metalcore's such a joke. Just some hardcore bands who suddenly said "Let's all jump on the Gothenburg bandwagon!" The only decent one is The Black Dahlia Murder, and only because they retained almost nothing of their origins and just became a decent MDM band.

[Super Dave]

Corect me if i;m wrong, but one of the radio stations Here in regina said Velvet Revolver was replacing maiden, and everyone here is saying that. does anyone know more about this rumor?

[Spencer]

the band that won MTV's Battle for Ozzfest is pretty good. I bought their cd cause it was only 5 bucks. Amusingly enough, I can't remember what they're called right now. Guess they must not be *that* good.

[a pack of wolves]

OmG ShAdoWs FalL RnT Met0L P0sEr

or something.

Metalcore's such a joke. Just some hardcore bands who suddenly said "Let's all jump on the Gothenburg bandwagon!" The only decent one is The Black Dahlia Murder, and only because they retained almost nothing of their origins and just became a decent MDM band.

The thing that really pisses me off about those haircut bands is that they won't own up and admit they're just naff metal bands, which means that when you tell someone you like metalcore they think you mean Poison The sodding Well or Shadows Fall. And then you have to beat them to death with Stalingrad records. It's a real chore.

[KharBevNor]

But Stalingrad are hardcore, at least If we're thinking of the same Stalingrad. It's normally best to stick with what the rest of the human race thinks a genres is. Just as a general point.

[a pack of wolves]

Yeah, but it gets difficult when the rest of the human race can't agree. When most people I know talk about metalcore they mean Stand, Integrity, Converge etc. And a lot of Stalingrad's stuff gets fairly metal, Nation Upon Nation for example (oh yeah, this is the Stalingrad from Bradford whose singer went on to be in The Devils). Sometimes it just makes it rather hard to describe things, emo's become useless for that these days since no-one can tell what the hell you mean anymore and screamo seems to be going the same way.

[KharBevNor]

Stalingrad from Bradford whose singer went on to be in The Devils

Thought so. Not what I'd call metalcore, but then I'm really crap at the Xcore family of genres. But me back in the happy world of Scandinavian metal any day.

[LightThievesAll]

I don't think metalcore is even a real genre.  I avoid it like the plague.  Now, crossover is a different story.  DRI, Cro-Mags, S.O.D. that's what I'm talking about.  If you want the ultimate "metalcore" band, it's Slayer, cos those guys wouldn't kick nearly as much ass as they do if they weren't punks.  Punk and metal meet at thrash and at grind, that's how I see it.  I could go on much longer about how much the abortion that is metalcore upsets me, but I'll refrain.

[KharBevNor]

Aaah...Crossover. Good stuff. Speak English or Die/Live at Budokan was definitely one of the best 'chances' I ever took with buying a CD.

The problem is that Metalcore never gets anywhere near punk. Metalcore feeds from modern hardcore and even emo, not to mention that it's metal influences are normally comprised of the most populist elements of MDM (mainly the melodic rifts and leads, normally snaffled from MDM's newer generation, rather than the good old stuff (Gallery era Dark Tranquillity or pre-Infernal Edge of Sanity)...when i first heard Shadows Fall I said something along the lines of "Ooh, In Flames have replaced Anders Frieden with the guy from Posion the Well!")

[Verek]

What's the deal with Anders Frieden anyway? He's a Swedish dude with dreadlocks. Who does he think he is? What does he think he is?


And for the record, although his tone fit earlier In Flames very well, Bjorn Strid is just the better vocalist overall.

[KharBevNor]

And for the record, although his tone fit earlier In Flames very well, Bjorn Strid is just the better vocalist overall.

Agreed, although Frieden presided over a good deal of my favourite IF songs and is a great frontman live.

I think Friedens best stint ever though was probably in Dark Tranquillity, chiefly because they did not let him write the lyrics.

Friedens grasp of poetic english was, at least in the past, at best tenuous. This is why the majority of mid-period In Flames songs make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[Verek]

Well, back in the day, Strid and Frieden both had a tenuous grasp on the English language. Just listen to Steelbath Suicide and The Chainheart Machine.

But the difference is that back then, they didn't NEED it. You listened to the lyrics for how they sounded, not for content, but most of all you listened to the GUITARS. And it was good. And it should have remained that way. But it didn't.

Now what albums was Frieden on for DT? I knew he was with them for awhile, but I didn't think they actually recorded anything with him, considering that Mikael Stanne rocks boxers, socks, and other sorts of things.


And also, In Flames had a different vocalist BEFORE Frieden? This is news to me.

[KharBevNor]

In Flames had three vocalists before Frieden. Jocke Göthberg on the first demo, Mikael Stanne on Lunar Strain and Henke Forsse on Subterranean. Anders Frieden was DT's vocalist all the way up to Skydancer. (he was the original vocalist when they were called Septic Broiler. Septic Broiler > DT is, incidentally, one of the best name changes in metal history. An exact inversion of Treblinka changing their name to Tiamat)

[californaya]

I went to Ozzfest in '02. I really am going to try to go this year. I wanted to go in '03, I didn't want to go last year, and I'm slightly more excited about this year.

[exliontamer]

Dude, all I gotta say is effing MAIDEN. I'd go for Maiden alone. But Mastadon and In Flames as well...I'm tempted to check it out this year.

[paradoxtitan]

Corect me if i;m wrong, but one of the radio stations Here in regina said Velvet Revolver was replacing maiden, and everyone here is saying that. does anyone know more about this rumor?

Velvet Revolver are replacing Maiden only for the last couple of dates on the tour, and also have their own spot aside from Maiden when they are playing. Or something like that.

-PT

[LightThievesAll]

I read an interview with Bruce Dickinson saying that all the material played on this tour will be off the first few albums, "Iron Maiden" through "Piece of Mind" I believe.  This is both awesome and disappointing, because while a ridiculous amount of good songs will be played, we'll miss out on "2 Minutes to Midnight", "Fear of the Dark" and other classics.  Doesn't bother me too much though, as long as "Hallowed Be Thy Name" is played, and it will be, I'll be so happy I'll be jumping over seats.

[KharBevNor]

They couldn't extend that remit up to the Powerslave album? Nooo!

[kikanjuuneko]

Metalcore's such a joke. Just some hardcore bands who suddenly said "Let's all jump on the Gothenburg bandwagon!" The only decent one is The Black Dahlia Murder, and only because they retained almost nothing of their origins and just became a decent MDM band.

Oh, you mean except for all those bands that don't sound like they're from Gothenburg?

Christ, you people. Get a life.

[bucky_2300]

They couldn't extend that remit up to the Powerslave album? Nooo!

Aw, that sucks. I'll miss the old "dun da da dun dada dun dadadaDA, dun da da dun da da dun dadadaDA".

As for my festivals this summer, I'm going to Warped Tour to see the Dropkick Murphys and the Dropkick Murphys alone. Everything else there sucks.

[Conatonc]

I've never been to an Ozzfest, and have no real interest what with the ever-growing ticket prices. But I am looking seriously at both of the other metal package tours this summer. Both Gigantour and Sounds of the Underground are going to be in the $30-35 range, and both have a handful of bands to hook me in. Gigantour has Dream Theater, Megadeth, and Dillinger Escape Plan, while Sounds has Opeth, Strapping Young Lad, and freakin' GWAR!

[KharBevNor]

Oh, you mean except for all those bands that don't sound like they're from Gothenburg?

Wha? Name these bands, as I would probably call them Hardcore bands.

Hardcore bands are fine. I have nothing really against them. I just don't like it when they pick up a second guitarist and get plastered all over the front of Metal Hammer. Because, all these 'metalcore' guys are just another wave of bastards fucking up metal. You can get defensive about the music you love, then I can get defensive about the music I love. -core in general is fucking ruining the metal pseudo-mainstream as completely as nu metal did five years back.

In the words of Ministry:

STOP IT!

[a pack of wolves]

All metalcore bands are hardcore bands. It's just another sub-genre like screamo, grindcore, powerviolence or youth crew. Hence the 'core' suffix. The various interpretations of genres seem to cause a lot of problems these days. Just look at the reaction you get when you tell someone you like emo, when most of those people have never heard more than maybe one or two at most actual emo bands.

[LightThievesAll]

All metalcore bands are hardcore bands. It's just another sub-genre like screamo, grindcore, powerviolence or youth crew. Hence the 'core' suffix. The various interpretations of genres seem to cause a lot of problems these days. Just look at the reaction you get when you tell someone you like emo, when most of those people have never heard more than maybe one or two at most actual emo bands.

The difference between metalcore and say, grindcore, powerviolence or youth crew, is that grindcore, powerviolence and youth crew don't suck.  I'll be honest, I haven't listened to a large amount of metalcore simply because the term kind of pisses me off, seems like a manufactured sub-genre to sell more records, but that still doesn't mean I've enjoyed what I've heard.  I've found that a lot of the metalcore type folks I know have a taste in music that I do not like at all, so that contributes to my prejudice as well.  If you profess to be a metal fan and don't like (or at least respect) Slayer, I have a hard time taking you seriously.  Similar with a hardcore fan who has no respect for, I dunno, SSD or Poison Idea.  I tend to be a judgmental prick when it comes to shit like that.

I guess the bottom line is this: I've given Killswitch Engage, Shadows Fall, Unearth, etc. the benefit of the doubt and they don't impress me.

Question- would people consider Candiria metalcore?  I don't, even though they've been embraced by that crowd.  Silly labelling non-withstanding, Candiria is absolutely killer.

[a pack of wolves]

See, I just don't see any of those bands as metalcore (including Candiria). I know a guy who likes a fair bit of that stuff and it gets on his nerves that they aren't just called metal bands when they blatantly are (just bad ones). Now Thirty Seconds Until Armageddon, that was bloody good metalcore.

Oh, and I'm with you on Poison Idea. How can you say you like hardcore but not respect the guys D.S.-13 sang about being 'kings of punk'?

[kikanjuuneko]

The difference between metalcore and say, grindcore, powerviolence or youth crew, is that grindcore, powerviolence and youth crew don't suck.  I'll be honest, I haven't listened to a large amount of metalcore simply because the term kind of pisses me off, seems like a manufactured sub-genre to sell more records, but that still doesn't mean I've enjoyed what I've heard.  I've found that a lot of the metalcore type folks I know have a taste in music that I do not like at all, so that contributes to my prejudice as well.  If you profess to be a metal fan and don't like (or at least respect) Slayer, I have a hard time taking you seriously.  Similar with a hardcore fan who has no respect for, I dunno, SSD or Poison Idea.  I tend to be a judgmental prick when it comes to shit like that.

I guess the bottom line is this: I've given Killswitch Engage, Shadows Fall, Unearth, etc. the benefit of the doubt and they don't impress me.

Question- would people consider Candiria metalcore?  I don't, even though they've been embraced by that crowd.  Silly labelling non-withstanding, Candiria is absolutely killer.

First of all, metalcore isn't a manufactured label term for selling records. Hell, the term, as far as I've heard has been around since the mid-90's, as have some metalcore bands (who are all coincidentally split up and forgotten these days). Integrity were formed in 1989! All Out War were formed in 1993! Metalcore isn't exactly a new genre.

And who the hell doesn't like Slayer or Maiden? I first heard "Reign in Blood" and "Fear of the Dark" when I was 10, but apparently, just because I think Unearth's "The Oncoming Storm" is one of the better albums I've heard the last couple of years, my opinion is completely invalidated in the eyes of some people!

PS. Avenged Sevenfold suck cocks. And so do Eighteen Visions. And let's not even talk about the painful things I want to do to Atreyu.
PS2. Some people consider Candiria metalcore. Some don't.

Wha? Name these bands, as I would probably call them Hardcore bands.

Oh, I don't know, Botch, Coalesce, Deadguy, The Dillinger Escape Plan, Norma Jean, Unbroken, Converge, Poison the Well, Hatebreed (and every other band that sounds like them) and, uh, Drowningman? That enough for you, Khar? Hardly your parents' hardcore (as 7 Seconds would put it), but hardly Gothenburg-sounding either.

[a pack of wolves]

Norma Jean? Urgh, worse than Atreyu for crimes against metal in my opinion. Kudos on the Coalesce, Unbroken, Drowningman, Deadguy and Botch though. Wish they'd come to my mind earlier, for some reason I just kept thinking of long-defunct UK bands.

[kikanjuuneko]

Dude, Norma Jean kick ass.

[a pack of wolves]

You seem to have put 'kick' where you must surely have meant 'suck'. Christian metal? No thanks.

[ASturge]

think im going to have to go with Pack O' Wolves on this one...

although kikanjuuneko has the right to his own opinion.

*is a mofoing hypocrite

[KharBevNor]

Oh, I don't know, Botch, Coalesce, Deadguy, The Dillinger Escape Plan, Norma Jean, Unbroken, Converge, Poison the Well, Hatebreed (and every other band that sounds like them) and, uh, Drowningman? That enough for you, Khar? Hardly your parents' hardcore (as 7 Seconds would put it), but hardly Gothenburg-sounding either.

They're all hardcore or mathcore by my estimation. I mean, I can't even see how you work metal influence into DEP.

And my parents listened to real punk. :p

(Thank you, father, for the Stiff Little Fingers records. Thank you, mother, for the Siouxsie and the Banshees songs you used to, somewhat disturbingly, sing me as a baby)

[kikanjuuneko]

Christian metal? No thanks.

Oh my, not this debate again.

Khar, that's the thing, they aren't just hardcore bands. American Nightmare is* a hardcore band. 7 Seconds is a hardcore band. Minor Threat, Champion, Poison Idea, Killing the Dream, Modern Life is War, all hardcore bands. Notice the similarity?

Of course, that's assuming you're going to bother listening to any of these bands, but my point is that hardcore, for good and bad has a set sound, and the other bands I mentioned, while keeping some basic ideas and attitude the same, sound nothing alike. Also, just because a band plays math every now and then doesn't mean that math is the primary defining characteristic of their sound. That's why I think they're metalcore.

* Well, they were until they got sued and had to change their name and then unceremoniously broke up merely days before I was supposed to see them at the Hultsfred festival. Goddammit.

[a pack of wolves]

To be honest, it's the music thing which bothers me about Norma Jean. The christianity and daft hair are just easy sticks to beat them with.

[kikanjuuneko]

Oh well.

[LightThievesAll]

And my parents listened to real punk. :p

(Thank you, father, for the Stiff Little Fingers records. Thank you, mother, for the Siouxsie and the Banshees songs you used to, somewhat disturbingly, sing me as a baby)

Damn, I wish my dad listened to SLF.  Siouxsie I can take or leave, but Stiff Little Fingers are just, well, they're them.  One of the top three bands Ireland has ever produced (others: Pogues, Thin Lizzy).

And addressing kikanjuuneko, plenty of people don't like Slayer and Maiden.  I would know, I work with several of them.  Other than that, you evidently know more about metalcore than I do, so you are in a better position to defend than I am to attack.  I try to stay out of the whole metalcore mess most of the time.

[Signum_Tenebrae]

Hardcore bands are fine. I have nothing really against them. I just don't like it when they pick up a second guitarist and get plastered all over the front of Metal Hammer. Because, all these 'metalcore' guys are just another wave of bastards fucking up metal. You can get defensive about the music you love, then I can get defensive about the music I love. -core in general is fucking ruining the metal pseudo-mainstream as completely as nu metal did five years back.

In the words of Ministry:

STOP IT!

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[kikanjuuneko]

You know, it never occurred to you that most of this situation is to blame on record labels, rather than the bands and the fans themselves? I mean, seriously, it's just like any other (good) thing that happens to get big. Someone stumbles upon it, sees that they can shift a lot of units of said thing, and then it all goes to hell. Me, I'm waiting for the whole metalcore fad thing to be goddamned over so everything can just go back to normal.

To a time where "hardcore" didn't mean "talks a whole bunch of shit on the Lambgoat messageboard".

[KharBevNor]

Damn, I wish my dad listened to SLF.  Siouxsie I can take or leave, but Stiff Little Fingers are just, well, they're them.  One of the top three bands Ireland has ever produced (others: Pogues, Thin Lizzy).

He has their records too...

Damn, but my dad's a wierdo. His band once supported The Damned (they were spat at and booed off because they weren't the scheduled support, but that's still fucking awesome) and now he's the Dean of a university.

How does stuff like that even think about happening? I mean, really. It's just not on. He had a mohawk. He was a member of the Hunt Saboteurs. He has a doctorate in 12th century Icelandic poetry. Eeeeaakk!!

Oh man, I am running into sleep deprivation again. What was this topic even about? Ozzfest right? Ahhh...

Umm...anyway, Dillinger Escape Plan are definitely mathcore. I may not be in a position of much intellectual authority on the whole 'core' thing, but I do bloody well know what metal is. And DEP ain't got any.

[a pack of wolves]

That's odd, most metalheads I've chatted to about that call them tech metal. The new album sounded very metal to me, and much less tech/math.

[KharBevNor]

The ultimate bastion of metal elitism, the archives, doesn't have 'em:

http://www.metal-archives.com/

And that's good enough to back up my opinions. Tech metal? WTF? There's nothing metal about them, even fans agree with that. You want to get an idea of how off you are, pick up some actual tech metal like Behemoth or (at the other end of the scale) DragonForce. DEP's influences are post-hardcore, math and jazz.

[a pack of wolves]

Not all fans, that's all I was saying. And that site had Discordance Axis who play grind, so it isn't all that elitist.

Dragonforce are awesome though. Fantastic widdling.

[KharBevNor]

Yeah, I know, the site is pretty wobbly in many respects. Half the moderators are ultra-elitists, half are ulta-tolerant. Pretty much. Non-metal stuff can get on easily until Ultraboris hears about it. Then he normally starts an argument with the other mods and annoys them so much they let him delete them. They used to have Atreyu on there (very, very briefly).

But DEP are big an well known, and their disinclusion heartens me.

[LightThievesAll]

Dragonforce are awesome though. Fantastic widdling.

God, I hope they tour the US soon.  Somehow I managed to turn several of my non-metal friends onto DragonForce, and we are dying to see them.