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[jus]

I like'em. I bought Around the Fur back in high school, then White Pony, Adrenaline and their self titled album last. I figure we usually discuss bands that most forum members are partial to... so I decided to bring up a band it seems a lot of people don't like.

I'm not usually partial to somewhat commercial, screamoish, self-loathing driven whine rock. But I don't know, they strike a chord with me I suppose.

Obviously, I liked them when I was 15 because they were, excuse my then stupidity, way hardcore! And screamed a lot. My least favorite song on Around the Fur was "Be Quiet and Drive" (which I love now, both the album and acoustic versions).

I liked a lot of White Pony as well, "Passenger" with Maynard from Tool had a great feel to it. I thought Pink Maggit was a great song (the rap metal remix released as a single, "Back to School" was shite however).

I'm sure a lot of you hate them, and probably any kind of related aggro-rock... But I feel like a lot of their post 2000 stuff had nice little atmospheric touches that made their undeniably ugly music more digestable. I've had people suggest less commercial alternatives to them when I say that I like the bitter, ugly side of life they frequently focus on, but they're usually too bitter, too ugly.

I think Tones are just right, even if they are a bunch o whiners. I popped in Around the Fur this morning on a whim, because I had a mad hangover, and I felt like making it worse. I haven't actually listened to any of my Deftones CDs in ages, not really for a year or more now. I haven't touched Adrenaline since high school. I just thought it'd be nice to start a discussion we could all disagree on . .

[blindsuperhero]

I like 'em too. They are the only metallic band I have any time for whatsoever, and I view them as a kind of Radiohead of the metalcore [if that's at all what they are, I have no clue] scene. White Pony is a fantastic concept album, a true exponent of music-as-art, which, when it all comes down to it, is what I am all about. Adrenaline is also a very unique sounding album, and while it does vere off course on occaisions it also contains some awesome music (the last couple of tracks particularly). I don't own Around The Fur, but I've heard My Own Summer and Be Quiet And Drive, and it sounds like it would be pretty cool as well.

Also, the other thing (music wise) I am all about is music you can just go crazy to, and of course they are very good for that.

I only heard two songs off the new album, but to me it sounded horribly over-produced so I wasn't at all inclined to buy it.

Oh, and Back To School (mini maggit) was pretty much a nu-metal parody, intentionally bad, if you will. I actually quite like it though...

[Robbo]

Shockingly can't stand them. Just another rubbish Nu Metal band bastarding Alt. Rock music with whatever they thought was cool at the time.

There's always been this thing of "less sucky Nu Metal bands" but I've never seen it. White Pony I just found to be horrible, didn't show any musical promise at all to me.

Being "Mallcore" isn't something I've ever seen a band get over (see Chimaira and co). They're trying not to suck and failing. The self titled was something all the kiddies jumped over, but still nothing even when they tried draw on other elements.

They're definatly not Metalcore (even Metalcore bands aren't that bad) and any hint of Metal in their music is passing at best.

So I dont like them and never have. I've never needed whining music like that. I've know enough people that do but I never will.

[KharBevNor]

Man, the Deftones should have collaborated with Mike Patton. Then their place on the list of cool nu metal bands would be assured next to Faith No More.

[jus]

You know, I probably enjoy them because they aren't metal. I can't stand metal; it's ugly.

Chino Moreno and co. make undeniably ugly music, but I don't know, I find something honest in Chino's admission to weakness and escapist dilemma. From what I've heard, and nothing the Tones put out could be accused of being poetry so I haven't read any of their lyrics, they like to make music about being disconnected and wanting to disappear.

I hate discussing lables, because, well, I never bothered with them, I listen to whatever makes me feel like listening to it. So I don't really know anything much about what loud music falls into what loud category. But from what I know of metal, I don't like it's chunkyness, and sometimes decidedly devilish nature. In their defense, the Tones do try to make music about everyday life, which is what I'm really interested in.

I hate what we call NU metal as much as anyone else. Also in the Tones defense is that you can't really accuse them of hopping on the NU metal bandwagon, they may have helped create it (you're allowed to hate them for that). In any case, they are what they are, love 'em, hate 'em, go blegh. While I'd agree with anyone who accused Chino of being a pretentious fuck, I like him. I like the band, they're doin' their thing.

[Robbo]

It's called Nu Metal for a reason. Stands for New Urban, thank Korn for it. It's of course not Metal, rather an Alt. Rock base that draws on other infleunces, sometimes Metal, often not. The infleunces are often the worst examples of the genre. Or rather, that's one of the often sited stories. It's the one I can dig up as making sense, certainly form a musical stand point.

Metal is ugly? Not all of it, certainly. And it's not all chunky either. Specially stuff with lots of keyboards. Keyboards are never chunky, they're to busy doing really high and fast solos.

[KharBevNor]

How dare you call metal ugly! You'll make it cry and turn into screamo.

But seriously, try a bit of DragonForce, Wuthering Heights, Avantasia, Nightwish, Moonsorrow, Domine, viking era-Bathory etc. and tell me metal is ugly. Similiarly, listen to a bit of Anaal Nathrakh, Nattefrost, Mayhem, Abyssic Hate, Bloodbath or Gorerotted and tell me it's beautiful. If you really hate labels, then you simply can't generalise like that.

[czar0406]

I absolutley LOVE Deftones.  Ive also been waiting patiently for Chino's side project Team Sleep to release there debut.

[jus]

How dare you call metal ugly! You'll make it cry and turn into screamo.

But seriously, try a bit of DragonForce, Wuthering Heights, Avantasia, Nightwish, Moonsorrow, Domine, viking era-Bathory etc. and tell me metal is ugly. Similiarly, listen to a bit of Anaal Nathrakh, Nattefrost, Mayhem, Abyssic Hate, Bloodbath or Gorerotted and tell me it's beautiful. If you really hate labels, then you simply can't generalise like that.

touche... but admittedly, some generalizations have to be made to avoid lengthy blurbs. I didn't say I hated labels; I hate discussing them. I said I wasn't very good with them, and couldn't be bothered to learn more about them. What I meant was, what I know of metal, hasn't really made me want to find out more.

I'll look into your suggestions... when I find a way to defeat my connection's evil firewall. Maybe I'll bring my laptop along with me to LA the next time I stay with friends and leech off their building's wireless.

[jus]

I listened to some 30 second clips on Amazon...

First off, I suppose I'd sort of identified the genre with Slayeresque music (which incidentally, I used to like).

I checked out some tracks from Wuthering Heights To Travel for Evermore and Nightwish's Once.

I stand corrected, far from ugly. In the case of Wuthering Heights, I can understand their appeal, but they still aren't my cup of tea really. I prefer a grittier (perhaps more urban?) sound where louder music is concerned. Obviously a very technically skilled band.

I actually really liked Nightwish. Great vocalist, powerful musicianship, I loved the use of an orchestra on many of the tracks.

I tried to check out Anaal Nathrakh but couldn't find any samples. But from what I read of them, I would hate them.

Actually out of curiosity I just checked out Wuthering Height's Within while I was typing this... some interesting stuff there, still not really my thing. They should be commissioned to produce a soundtrack for the next great fantasy rpg.

[KharBevNor]

Basically, anything that falls into the genres of symphonic, power or classical metal is going to be pretty nice, or at least not ugly. A lot of Folk and Viking as well, though that's a rougher, more masculine beauty. Basically, this is the kind of stuff that's still way outside the mainstream everywhere except Finnland.

Also, It really does depend how you train your ear. I find a lot of black and death metal to be beautiful or uplifitng, especially at those genres more melodic end.

Deftones are pretty ugly though :p

[blindsuperhero]

I absolutley LOVE Deftones.  Ive also been waiting patiently for Chino's side project Team Sleep to release there debut.

You mean they haven't released anything yet? I remember reading about them ages ago and thinking they would be pretty cool

[czar0406]

yeah dude.  Team Sleep has been around since 01'.  Some of the material was leaked on the internet and they released one track for The Matrix sequels.  They have an official release date for May but im fuzzy on the exact date.  Im excited!

[loyalpeon]

I used to be into Deftones thing about 6/7 year ago. I have white pony somewhere in my cd collection, but i can't say i have listened to it in a long time... the last 3 tracks of that cd definately stand the test of time, but as for the rest... well... not my cup of tea anymore really. I'm not sure if i can say i like them or merely that i like a handful of their songs, but hell, that's good enough i guess.

anyways... yeah.

[Praeserpium Machinarum]

Well I like them, their atmospheric(I have no other word) sound on tracks like Minerva etc. is great while saying that I don't think I could listen to a whole album by them because I suspect there will be screaming and I don't like screaming for screaming's sake.

[kikanjuuneko]

Haha, the Deftones was one of the first bands that got me into harder music, and one of the few bands associated with nu-metal (I always thought of them a little too left-field to be regular ol' dull nu-metal) that I can listen to without my ears hemorrhaging.

Actually, to be even clearer, I goddamned love the Deftones.

[Radiowar]

Deftones are OK. I'm more interested in Team Sleep though.

[Druid]

I like the deftones. They aren't mindlessly dumb like most of the bands from that genre/era.

Metal being ugly is the reason I listen to metal. It's nice to get away from the carefully constructed songs and arrangements of say The Arcade Fire, and listen to something much rawer and gutteral like All Else Failed. I don't listen to it all the time, but I do listen to it for a change of pace and intriguing playlist matchups.

[El Opium]

I had a copy of white pony once, but I sold it during one of my purantical corporate rock purges. I will admit I did like how they at least tried to be 'not stupid' when it came to lyrics. The way I look at things now I fully acknowledge that I am a somewhat of a snob and that the music I listen to is not for everyone.

[zekterellium]

my favourite band of all time. their lyrics are awesome, chino's voice is fucking sublime, and they aren't averse to a little experimentation. they invented a lousy genre sure, but you can't really blame them for what other people did with it. oh, and be quiet and drive is one of the ebst songs ever written. rock and roll.

[Spencer]

Definitly one of my favorite bands of forever, though I havent paid much attention to them since the release of their Self Titled record, which sadly I thought was a bore (admittedly, I was into a different sound at the time and didn't give it much of a chance). I've been into The Deftones since the first time I heard "Seven Words" when "Adrenalin" was released. Somehow combining emotion with hard rock became a sin, and all the hipsters decried it and felt the need to label it, but the Deftones have always just sounded right to me. There's such raw passion in their music, i find it incredibly infectious. I've met them a couple of times as well, and they are all incredibly nice people. I talked to Chi and Stephan for hours after a show once, and that sort of devotion to their fans is very commendable.

"Around The Fur" is just the pinnacle of hard rock music in my eyes. Nothing has ever sounded better to me, and I doubt anything ever will. As an aside, it is also an incredibly intense album to listen to while peaking on mushrooms.

I'm very excited about the Team Sleep record *finally* being released. I'm still on the fence as to whether I like their sound, so I anxiously await the time when I can take in the full album and experience this band.

[jus]

Spencer:

Adrenaline was my favorite Tones album, although I think I like White Pony best now. Surprisingly, from what I've heard, Around the Fur is widely considered their weakest album (lyrically). I'm not sure how I feel about that; I certainly enjoyed it.

I suggest your giving their latest album another chance, I was kind of turned off by it when I bought it, but after a few more listens through (months later!), I'd say I like it. I've heard it called "over produced", but what does that mean anyway? I'm not against using all the tools at your disposal, it's just a different type of sound.

And I'm so jealous you got to meet them...

[blindsuperhero]

"Overproduced" is where music loses most of its energy and impact because it's been given too "smooth" a sound. "Commercialised" is another term to describe the same thing. Examples of overproduced albums (when compared to the band's previous work) are Give 'Em Enough Rope by The Clash, Stranger Than Fiction by Bad Religion, Americana by The Offspring (or Conspiracy Of One, for that matter. Splinter has fantastic production, mind) and the latest crappy albums from NOFX and Rancid, I don't know what they're called. Interestingly it does seem to be mainly punk rock bands that suffer from this.

[Spencer]

... and the latest crappy albums from NOFX and Rancid, I don't know what they're called. Interestingly it does seem to be mainly punk rock bands that suffer from this.

Wow, though I do not discredit your opinion, I *completely* disagree with you on both of those bands. IMO, the last albums by these groups ("Indestructible" by Rancid and "War on Errorism" by NOFX) were tremedous efforts, and great albums, bringing both bands sounds back to their roots, so to speak, in the wake of a few poor releases from both bands. I am admitedly biased, as Rancid is by and large my favorite punk band ever, with NOFX up at the top of that list too.

Back to the subject at hand - The last Deftones album. I do think that part of what turned me off was that it sounded to clean - i.e. slick and over-produced, but I think moreso than that was that I was just into a completely different sound at the time. I go through really huge musical mood swings for months at a time. Sometimes I'll be all about Hardcore, sometimes Punk, sometimes Dance music (espeically House), sometimes Hip Hop, sometimes Folk, etc...

At the time the last Deftones album dropped, Im fairly certain I was neck deep in a House music binge. I think I'll have to pull this record out again once Im back in a Hard Rock sorta mood.

[blindsuperhero]

bringing both bands sounds back to their roots

Right-o. Go listen to the first Rancid album. then listen to "Indestructible". If you think they have the same, or even vaguely similar sounds, well, I just don't know. You can do the same with NOFX, except the first 5 or so NOFX albums were really awful. Compare "War on Errorism" to Ribbed or White Trash, Two Heebs and a Bean. If you think they sound similar, well.

[Robbo]

Has any band ever gone back to their roots without it really just being a pile of trash?

[Revenge_Therapist]

Usually overproduced is a function of the sophmore album. After the first album does remotely well the badn discovers a freedom to experiment in the studio, and usually turns the sound into mush.
A band that got back to their root well was the Smashing Pumpkins with Machina. It was a shame that they could only piece it back together for one last hurrah but it was a good one.

[Druid]

I comepletely disagree with that.
Machina was horrible; there were parts on Machina II that sounded like the Pumpkins of old though.
Their return to form would have to be their last single, "Untitled", which is maddening since it shows they never lost their form but let Flood pervert their form.

Back to the topic, Deftones for the most part I found boring. "Minerva" is cool, but the electronics don't really do anything to enhance their sound.

[Revenge_Therapist]

I dunno, I think yeah the production was a little much. Machina II was awesome. Most of it was the outtakes from Machina,

[jus]

"Overproduced" is where music loses most of its energy and impact because it's been given too "smooth" a sound. "Commercialised" is another term to describe the same thing. Examples of overproduced albums (when compared to the band's previous work) are Give 'Em Enough Rope by The Clash, Stranger Than Fiction by Bad Religion, Americana by The Offspring (or Conspiracy Of One, for that matter. Splinter has fantastic production, mind) and the latest crappy albums from NOFX and Rancid, I don't know what they're called. Interestingly it does seem to be mainly punk rock bands that suffer from this.

I wasn't asking for a definition, but I thank you, the sentiment is most sincerely appreciated.

What I meant was that I don't have  a bias against studio time producing an "unnatural sound". Your opinion on the Deftones granted, I enjoy several electronic sub generes and was not offended by said production on the latest Deftones album. I thought the album had problems (I didn't like its pacing), but I don't think their new style, like it or not, would have benefitted from the grittier sound featured on their older releases.

[blindsuperhero]

Well yes, there is a difference between using a wide range of studio stuff to create interesting and different sounds, and an album being overproduced. Overproduced doesn't mean it has too much crazy stuff in it, it just refers to the sound. An album with just drums guitars and vocals could be overproduced.

[Johnny C]

A band that does as much drugs as the Deftones do should produce much better music.

[czar0406]

yeah, youd figure all the drugs they do they would be skinny, but no, chino and steph are friggin fat.  I love Deftones a lot though.

[blindsuperhero]

Steph is just the hugest guy! His guitar looks absolutely tiny!

[KharBevNor]

They should team him up with Ephel Duath's midget bassist! He's under four feet tall!

[Johnny C]

They would sing songs about Kareem Abdul-Jabaar and Verne Troyer making friends!

[RaideR]

I LOVE DEFTONES.
even tried to play some deftones songs on guitar. It sounded horrible btw

[zekterellium]

aw, RaideR my man, my friend chris did an acoustic set at a guerilla gig in an old church. we tried to do 'be quiet and drive" - and got booed off the stage. it was the first time he had ever sung live.