Fun Stuff > BAND
Elitism
Johnny C:
See, I have no problems with a civil discussion. However, when you get trite, curt, or excessively heated about a topic, then it just gets retarded. And don't try and defend elitism as an argument to "make things interesting." It makes thing stupid, feelings get hurt, etc. I know that having your tastes challenged can help you figure out why you like music, but at the same time if it's not done in a civil way then it has almost an opposite effect, and at the same time whoever's challenging said tastes comes across looking slightly like a dork.
--- Quote ---But don't make definitive statements about the quality of the music you like just because you like it.
--- End quote ---
And the same goes if you don't like it.
As a final note, saying "I recognize that stuff I like is shit" does not justify calling other people's tastes shit. It just doesn't fly.
I hope I've crystallized things for you.
Tago Mago:
What a person likes doesn't concern me so much as why they like it and what they get out of it. It doesn't take any kind of talent to look up the latest records and buy accordingly, and you can usually figure out pretty quickly those music listeners who are passionate about the artform versus those who have become lost in all the bullshit surrounding it. Generally I find that it's those who are most hostile towards others who fall into this latter category.
Merkava:
I can be elitist sometimes, but I'm not a full-fledged elitist warrior. I have spurts when someone attacks my genre (not that I even have one ;P)
sp2:
--- Quote from: Johnny C ---And don't try and defend elitism as an argument to "make things interesting." It makes thing stupid, feelings get hurt, etc.
--- End quote ---
Oh man, feelings get hurt. Oh fucking no. Look, feelings get hurt all the time. Feelings got hurt back in the 60s when we started criticizing the way the US treated its women and minorities. I guess we should never have brought that stuff up, huh? Feelings got hurt, too, when people criticized Bush for invading Iraq. I guess we shouldn't have done that either, huh. Evolutionary theory hurts feelings, too. Guess we should just tell scientists to go and do something useful, like flipping burgers. McDonalds doesn't hurt anyone's feelings, right?
Look, no matter what someone says, if you make a decisive point about any opinion you hold, someone else will have an opposing viewpoint, and you might hurt their feelings. That's life. Things would be a lot less interesting if no one disagreed on anything. I'm sorry, but I like living in a world where my opinions differ from other people's, it would be boring living in a world where everyone nodded their head in time to the latest indie sensation or whatever.
I also do take music somewhat seriously. I have friends that literally make their livings in music, either because they're in a band or because they have a job where they have to critique music (either they write a music column or work as a DJ). I don't do either, but I do play in a band and I take my own music relatively seriously, which means I am constantly critiquing music listen to, trying to figure out what works and what doesn't, what is cliche and what is not, what is clever and what is stale, and so forth. It's not because I'm trying to be elitist. It's because that's how I think when I'm in music-writing mode.
For the most part, I avoid making personal attacks. If I do, I attempt to keep them lighthearted and joking, such as my discovery channel special comment.
There are two things that take some balls when talking about music, A) admitting something is quality even if it's not your taste, and B) admitting something is shit even if you like it. I have no problem doing either so long as I feel there's justfication for such a perspective. There are bands that I think are shit and can't stand, and that I can provide good solid reasons for my stance. There are bands I like that I do think are high quality that I can provide good reasons for my opinion as well. The thread in question was one of the former. I made an offhand comment, and someone took it seriously, so I took the opportunity to provide my perspective on the band in question with reasons to back up my complaints.
I'm sorry if that hurt anyone's feelings. Actually, no, I'm really not. Grow thicker skin.
Johnny C:
Music isn't politics, it isn't civil rights, and nobody should die or riot becuase of it. And keep in mind, more people cared about what Martin Luther King Jr. had to say than they did about Malcom X. "Keep it civil" is my point, and it applies to pretty much everything you've said here. A difference of opinion is one thing, but dickery about it is an entirely different thing.
I care just as much about music as you do; hell, I buy it, write it, etc., and, just like you, I have friends who are in positions where they are obligated to take music seriously. I'm inclined to call stuff "cliched" and "stale" too, but that's because in some cases it's true.
I do, however, avoid calling people's music shit, even though I may think it is. I can just as easily say, right off the bat, that I think their music's cliched or dishonest or stale or pandering, but I'm going to try and keep the argument civil.
Which brings me back to the point: this is the Questionable Content forum. We're smart people here, we're the good guys. Surely we can have discussions about bands without it delving into "I LIEKS TEH BAND" "TEH BAND SUXXORS AND YOU LIEK 8===D" even if there's also "THIS IS WHY TEH BAND SUXXORS AND YOU LIEK 8===D" attached.
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