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[sp2]

This is a rant.  Sorry.  Hang with me.  Or lock it.  I don't really care.

There are a few individuals who, whenever someone has something disparaging to say about a band, immediately respond with "why don't you have anything positive to say?" or "keep your opinions to yourself" or something equally inane.  This is lame.  This is obnoxious.  This defeats the purpose of any sort of discussion on music in the first place.

You don't like people critically reviewing music?  Well, shit, you probably shouldn't read album or concert reviews in your local paper, alternative or otherwise.  I mean, they're going to dislike some of the stuff you love.  And damn, you certainly shouldn't read Pitchfork or any other critic website, because they'll just thrash your favorite bands.

You don't like people making clever jabs at your favorite bands?  Well, Jeph ought to just keep music out of his strip entirely.  And Mitch Clem should stop writing Nothing Nice to Say.  And SomethingAwful should just shut Your Band Sucks the fuck down.  Because everyone knows making fun of bands other people like, even when it's done in a clever manner, isn't funny.  Not at all.  Not in the least bit.

People making cracks about music serves multiple purposes.  It can be an honest to god criticism of the band.  Is that wrong?  No, not really, if you take music seriously, especially if you write it yourself, you are constantly looking things that work well and things that don't work well, so you become honed to look for such aspects of various pieces of music.  Honest criticism, such as, "man, their lyrics are really cornball.  The music itself is fine, but they need to have someone else write their lyrics" helps understand the music better, and for people like me, helps validate other reasons for liking a band, such as style, interplay between instruments, musical skill, etc.  It can be a way of taking down a band that takes itself too seriously (and yes, there are tons of these out there.  I like quite a few myself.  I mean, I love The Mars Volta to pieces, but there are definitely an assload of jokes that can and should be made at their expense.).  It can be a way of injecting some humor into an otherwise dull conversation.  Hell, it can be a way of telling other people with similar taste to avoid wasting hard-earned money on a particular album (Trail of Dead rocks, but I wouldn't touch Worlds Apart even with Hazmat gloves).  At the very least, it might make someone laugh (god forbid).

So seriously, there is nothing wrong with arguing about the merits of a particular band.  There is nothing wrong with making a short snarky comment about a particular band.  So seriously.  Chill out.  The world is a better place when people disagree occasionally.

[SeanBateman]

See the problem is, you post this clearly well thought out rant, but in your actual criticisms of music, (i.e. Dashboard) all you really did was insult fans of the music. Clever criticism is a far cry from "there is no excuse for this band to be popular"

I am not responding to this thread again, so don't bother coming after me.

[Trollstormur]

Tool is a good example of how I criticise music. I go: 1. They're awful talented, I'm sure but 2. It's not my taste in music. but 3. holy crap have I met some bad people that identify themselves as 'tool fans'

ICP: 1. They're having fun doing it, and I'm pretty sure they don't take it seriously but 2. if they don't take their own music seriously, why should I? but 3. I've gotten in a lot of fights with irate Juggalos who are usually "those kind of people"

I shy away from the music forum a lot because I honestly only listen to one kind of music: a specific brand of metal (and it's off-shoots) And there's a whole lot of good music out there that I'm just not interested in and I'm glad you can groove on whatever melody you find appealing but I'd rather remain ignorant.

[kidd o]

Isn’t it just as easy to discuss a flaw in a record from a neutral or even positive manner?

[MilkmanDan]

What, something like "I really love the fact that the whole record is shit"? Or maybe "My Goodness! It's so awesome that you listen to terrible music. That's just swell".

[Inlander]

The point is whether or not the negative comment in question is contributing anything to the thread.  There are some people who, whenever a certain band is mentioned, will post a comment with no intention other than to say "That band sucks."  We know that's what you think.  We heard you the first time, and the second time, and the third, and the fourth . . . ad nauseum.  If all you have to contribute is that the band sucks, and not why it sucks, and if you insist on making that comment every single time the band is mentioned, then please just shut up.

If, on the other hand, you feel like making a post explaining that in your opinion the lyrics of said band are banal, or the intruments are played ineptly, or the song-structure is cliched, and if those comments are something new that none of us have heard from you before, then by all means, post and be a constructive member of the forum.

[Not An Addict]

Let's just all agree to disagree.

No, really.

[yipjumpmusic]

That is for when things get out of hand and must have an end and I've seen it work here.  It was amazing.

[Lug]

I thing a big problem of negative comments is that most of the time they aren't about the quality of the music but more about the politics of the band: "They are posers, they sold out, they are just apealing to whinny 13 year olds to sell records".

Music is such a personal thing and means differnt things to differnt people.  Just because I can't see the point of Gansta Rap or the what's the big deal about being 'Straight out of Compton' doesn't mean it might actually be very important to someone else. Judging someones values compared to your own makes you a pretty big douche bag.

[amok]

I don't think it should be disallowed to say if you don't like a band, it annoys me when someone starts a discussion along the lines of "what do you think of (band x)?" and then gets all uppity when not everyone worships the ground they walk on. On the other hand there's no point claiming that the band are bad because you don't like them, or personally attacking fans. Unless most of the fans are jackasses, I guess.

Respecting people's right to dislike bands you like is just as important as respecting people right to listen to bands you don't like, I guess, so it annoys me when people get all hypocritical and tell people to shut up unless they have something nice to say.

[est]

i think that criticism and discussion about the relative merits of a band/artist/whatever is pretty cool, so long as people remember that there is a difference between being critical or funny and being a dick to someone and abusing them.

[lastclearchance]

Yeah.  Incidentally, what's so hard about that?

[KharBevNor]

People, people.

If you'd all just stop listening to shite music, this kind of thread wouldn't be necessary.
OMG SARCASM

[Maui]

hey, i dont really want to comment on this, i just get worked up, but fyi quoting the person above you is frowned upon, and kinda pointless.

[kidd o]

Positive exposition:

I couldn't find substance or cohesion on the record.

Negative exposition:

GAWD HUM R SUCH PHAGS.  THEY HAVE NO TALENT!

[ASturge]

People, people.

If you'd all just stop listening to shite music, this kind of thread wouldn't be necessary.
OMG SARCASM

It wasn't though......

WAS IT!!!?

[KharBevNor]

It stands as it stands.

[Hatebunny]

Hmm, My theory is that if someone makes a thread expressing their like of a band, that thread should be used for agreement and general discussion of positive qualities of that band. I'd consider it a thread derailment to come in and say 'I don't like this band: here's why all your reasons for liking them are stupid.' which, though you may deny it, is the way people around here do it.

Anyway, I'd suggest that if you dislike the band, make your own thread about why you dislike them so that people who dislike them can go and post about why they dislike them. This way, people with similar likes and tastes can communicate well about something they agree upon, and no one is annoyed or offended beyond milder disagreements in 'this guy says the band sucks slightly more than I think it sucks, but I still think it sucks.' Or 'this gal thinks the band is better than I do....but I still like it.' y'see? Much easier to reconcile THOSE differences than it is 'I love this band' and 'are you fucking stupid? The only sound their guitars make is the sound of one hand clapping.'  Or somesuch argument.

Really, If you can find nothing positive to say about a band, say your negative comment somewhere else, so that people who enjoy the band can have their posts read and appreciated before the 'I hate this band' crowd comes in and throws the thread off until it dies.

[sp2]

You gave your opinion, but....no argument.

There are plenty of ways to make constructive criticism that involves negative comments.  If someone is ranting and raving about, oh, say, I dunno, Green Day, and I make some snarky comments and suggest half a dozen good punk bands that have a similar style but don't, you know, suck, How is that not in the spirit of music discussion?  If people are talking about how Modest Mouse are the most innovative band out there right now, and I suggest they try listening to anything besides, you know, Modest Mouse, because calling Modest Mouse "innovative" suggests a seriously limited listening experience.

There are plenty of myths about current bands that people perpetuate by parroting things they hear from each other and from Pitchfork.  If you believe the indie scene and pitchfork, Interpol are one of the most talented, energetic, and innovative bands out there.  I got news for you; that sort of opinion is based on a limited sphere of experience and is emphatically not true.  If you believe indie scenesters, Win Butler (Arcade Fire)'s scene antics are "energetic" and "a great show" while Cedric Bixler (The Mars Volta)'s are "pretentious" and "a put-off."  I got news for you.  Climbing around on the frames of a stage or jumping out into the crowd halfway through a show is no different than throwing around the mic stand or jumping off the drum set.

If everyone is just talking amongst themselves saying the same shit they heard from another scenester, and no one calls them on that, what's the point in a music forum?  I mean, you're better off just reading Pitchfork; they normally at least have decent writing and spelling, although reviews like this suggest to me that Pitchfork are still, at heart, a bunch of fucking wankers.  I also honestly believe that many pitchfork reviews really only focus on one or two solid songs, but that's another story entirely.

My point, and the point of this thread, is that negative comments make such discussions more relevant, because they provide a check on the rampant parroting that has pretty much infected the current scene.  Without such checks, people will believe completely ludicrous things, like Milli Vanilli really DID sing all their songs, or that Interpol are actually good.

[Hatebunny]

You gave your opinion, but....no argument.

...or that Interpol are actually good.

The point is to avoid pointless arguments, and increase conversation.

Also, that interpol comment, joke or not is exactly the kind of nonchalant 'My Criticism = 'they suck!'' comment that everyone's talking about when they disagree with you about your negative comments actually providing criticism.

I don't like interpol, some people do. 'sucks' is subjective. So, here's a subjective 'you suck' to you too. Try not to mistake it for an objective comment, like you do your own negative criticisms, and you should survive.

[Schmung]

Interpol are good. Energetic, innovative and supremely talented certainly not, but they're a pretty solid.

Now you're just saying that people who don't agree with you are wrong and haven't listened to enough,  which sort defeats the point of your first post and makes you sound like an elitist arse.

Yes, you can agree that certain bands are a complete waste of space and effort and have the musical value typically associated with lift muzak, but once you move beyond the realms of Christina Aguilera, Busted etc It's basically all about your tastes and preferences. Certainly, there are a lot of people running around without a clue because they don't know any better, but you seem to be tarring a hell of lot of people with the same brush just because the happen to disagree with you.

[Hatebunny]

If you'll allow me to refer to the music forum rules:

Don't be a dick. If someone creates a thread about x genre of music that is not an invitation for fans of y genre to jump all over x thread because they don't like it, or because x isn't y. Further, don't then go and attempt to make everything about genre y.


requires no further explanation.

Don't be an elitist prick. You're not superior to anyone if your favourite band has a more complex chord structure than your standard pop hook. This is like compensating for a small penis with a sports car.

g'yarr.

Be intelligent. In a thread about a band it's alright to post about why they don't do it for you, so long as your reasoning is intelligent. "I hate The Arcade Fire because they're not metal" is not intelligent reasoning. Also, there is no need to state this more than once. Not talking out of your ass should follow, don't bash bands you've never listened to, or heard one single on the radio.


Having drawn attention to that:
Here's the deal. You can say you don't like something. It is preferred that you explain why, and it is preferred that you do so intelligently, without using simply saying that it's crap for losers. You may NOT derail threads by way of defaming the band that the thread is about.

a-digga.

[KharBevNor]

I HATE YOU!

I HATE THE BAND YOU LIKE!

[sp2]

Re: Hatebunny

Oops, you're a retard.

Rule 1 refers to genres.  You can't say "rap sux up the punx!" Not only because it's a dick move, but it's fucking retarded.

Rule 2 refers to progtentiousness, specifically, the belief that complex makes better.  There is a difference between saying "oh man, only the most complex music is good" and saying "such and such band is shit because they can't play their instruments, they even struggle on the most elementary of riffs and don't really have a lot to offer."

Rule 3 is basically saying "if you're going to bash musicians, do it for the right reasons."  I don't dislike Interpol because they're not post-hardcore.  I dislike Interpol because they are supposed to be fresh, innovative, and energetic, and they're none of the above.  They're stale indie cliches.  And I'll bash them for THAT reason.  Also, it says don't talk about something you have no experience with.  This could just as easily be extended to "indie music that's so richly produced or interwoven, such as Interpol"*

If I say in a thread which is talking about how innovative the Killers are that they're really not all that innovative, and are really not above stealing shamelessly from other musicians, and the thread turns from a Killers-fan circle-jerk to an argument over the merits of the band and what really flies when you're biting from other musicians, how is that "derailed?"  Doesn't sound derailed to me.  It's still about the band.  It's probably more about the band than the previous postings were, because the previous postings were about some imaginary entity that is clearly distinct and separate from the actual band.


*real quote from Johhny C

[trolley]

Music means different things to different people. "I'm not a fan of this music" goes down a whole lot smoother than "This music is crap". It's not hard, why drag it out into this big convoluted disscussion?

People have differing opinions. Respect that. Simple as that really.

[sp2]

There are plenty of bands I respect that I am not a fan of.  There are plenty of bands that are crap that I still listen to.

Saying "I'm not a fan of this band/album" is different than saying "this band/album is crap."  It's not really as subjective as some folks are making it out to be.

[Kai]

I HATE YOU!

I HATE THE BAND YOU LIKE!

RVB <3 <3


Also, What's the problem with saying a band is shit as long as you back it up with something? I mean, it's not like that person's fucking opinion matters at all to you. Also, I take all of SP2's asshole posts completely unseriously, and they're hilarious.[/quote]

[Threatis]

the problem is, music is subjective.


I listen to alot of weird Glitch and Noise artists, some would call it shit, some would call it interesting. Your opinion (or mine for that matter) is not the barometer on which opinions are based, and trying to fool yourself with that notion is just silly.


Try this, the next time someone on THE INTERNET brings up a band you hate, play a song by a band you REALLY enjoy. You'll be all the happier.

[Kai]

Or that person could say what they want to say about the band and both of you could be on your merry way. Music is subjective, and people who take offense at Interpol being called bland need to chill out. That's their opinion, not law.


On an unrelated note, Interpol are really boring.

[Kid Amnesiac]

Dr. David Thorpe > You

[Kai]

Truer words have never been spoken.

[sp2]

On an unrelated note, Interpol are really boring.

Understatement.

[Threatis]

Or that person could say what they want to say about the band and both of you could be on your merry way. Music is subjective, and people who take offense at Interpol being called bland need to chill out. That's their opinion, not law.


On an unrelated note, Interpol are really boring.

"going on your merry way" is rarely the case, people wll bicker FOREVER about bands.

I dont agree that Interpol is bland, I actually find them interesting, and their songs have alot of depth. But thats just my 2 cents. And, thats the last I'll say about that.*goes on merry way*

[siobhan]

how did this become a conversation about the merits (or lack thereof) of Interpol?

honestly though, the music forum scares me because of the critics in here. if i wanted someone to express  raving opinions (good or bad) of a band then i'd visit a website where this is the central idea. i think an objective outlook needs to be kept in the back of everyones mind when reading about other people's music taste.

so thats my two cents...

[Threatis]

Lets hear it for the level-headedness of Ontario-ans!

I just think that people need to relax, and realize that this is just music. Sure people like me live music, and take it seriously. However, I can seperate music from real life.

As I said before, your opinion, or anyone else's is not the defining opinion on a specific band.

[trolley]

how did this become a conversation about the merits (or lack thereof) of Interpol?

honestly though, the music forum scares me because of the critics in here. if i wanted someone to express  raving opinions (good or bad) of a band then i'd visit a website where this is the central idea. i think an objective outlook needs to be kept in the back of everyones mind when reading about other people's music taste.

so thats my two cents...

I'd have paid 4 cents for those 2 cents. Most of the post's I have made in the music forum have lead to someone biting me on the ass.

[ASturge]

The key to winning, is to

NOT CARE ABOUT THE OPINION OF THE PERSON THAT 'DISSED YO BAND'

If sp2 thinks Modest Mouse are shit..... I don't care!

I Like em' . Doesn't mean i want to go kill sp2 for not liking a band I like. Also, I'm not one of those people who say "everyone gets their own opinion blah blah blah".... that's just annoying. I'm of the opinion that sp2's opinion on Modest Mouse is wrong. But im not going to make an issue of it.

Obviously it now sounds like i am making an issue of it..... but it was only an example!!!!

[elcapitan]

SP2's asshole posts

As opposed to what?


[/pickin']

[trolley]

The key to winning, is to

NOT CARE ABOUT THE OPINION OF THE PERSON THAT 'DISSED YO BAND'

If sp2 thinks Modest Mouse are shit..... I don't care!

I Like em' . Doesn't mean i want to go kill sp2 for not liking a band I like. Also, I'm not one of those people who say "everyone gets their own opinion blah blah blah".... that's just annoying. I'm of the opinion that sp2's opinion on Modest Mouse is wrong. But im not going to make an issue of it.

Obviously it now sounds like i am making an issue of it..... but it was only an example!!!!

Look dude, just cos you like modest mouse, doesn't mean we all do. Just shut it yeah?

[ASturge]

*sighs*

That's what I'm saying. You don't care about my opinion. I don't care about yours. There's no point in making an issue of it. Wait, you just did.

[soap]

i'd say its fine to have and express negative opinions ... constructive ones though not like the kind that most people on blabbermouth seem to express (eg they're gay fags shittyy shitt shit etc).

but i don't think hijacking a "i really like *insertband*" thread with piles of hate is a bit much... i mean i really don't like bands like oasis or counting crows, but il try to let people like them if they want (although when i was younger i would probably write louds of crap about them and argue til my fingers hurt from typing or something similar).

[Valrus]

how did this become a conversation about the merits (or lack thereof) of Interpol?

I think it's because every conversation involving sp2 becomes one about Interpol.

[IronOxide]

Congratulations people! This is the thread with the single most long messages ever!

That being said, peoples opinions are their opinions. I strongly dislike metal in general, but I have to realise and respect the people who do. The most terrible mistakes that people can make in the musical critisism area is either 1.Personally attacking people who listen to such music. or 2. Taking objective critisism as a personal attack.

[My Aim Is True]

I'm going to side with sp2.


people saying things like-

Music means different things to different people. "I'm not a fan of this music" goes down a whole lot smoother than "This music is crap". It's not hard, why drag it out into this big convoluted disscussion?

is just a really ridiciulous pansy-waisted approach to it. Having a big convoluted discsussion is what we SHOULD be going for, and sometimes that only stems from saying something is crap. If you say something is crap, then you have to explain why, and that is interesting. If you just say you're not a fan, then we have to wonder why you opened your mouth in the first place.

[Valrus]

If you say something is crap, then you have to explain why, and that is interesting.

While I can see where you're coming from, this is demonstrably not true, especially on the Internet. Some (too many) people are perfectly happy with just saying "UR BAND SUX," sometimes over and over again. I agree that people shouldn't pussy-foot around if they genuinely dislike something, but being blunt and being interesting are not the same thing.

[trolley]

*sighs*

That's what I'm saying. You don't care about my opinion. I don't care about yours. There's no point in making an issue of it. Wait, you just did.

Dude, the little winky -->  meant i was yanking your chain. No offence was intended!

[kidd o]

I don't mind discussing things with people but I'm not going to have another argument like what was in the dance thread.  I was told (by sp2) that my opinion was wrong.  I just can't argue with that.  It's like a little kid telling you he won't eat his spaghetti because it's really worms!  

As far as the "this band sucks" I think that if there is to be a mature discussion about anything related to art it has to be understood by both parties that at the heart of the matter there can't be a winner or a looser, but you might just learn something.  I was wearing my interpol shirt at a jazz club once and an older woman came over and commented on how that is the only new album she's bought in 8 years.  I would love to see someone tell a 70+ year old woman who happens to be a walking talking jazz encyclopedia, that she has no taste in music.

and about all these comments about pitchfork... Will you guys just give it a rest?  I mean with all the people who have no idea what underground music is let alone that it exists, do we really have to be such stuck up fuckheads that we can't even read a review from a team of people passionate about the same (if not similar) music that we are??  I mean think about it.  If you're reading this right now, chances are music means a whole lot to you.  If that’s so can't you just respect the opinions of others and say "I disagree" rather than "OMG PITCHFORK IS GHEY"

I guess what I mean to say is grow up and realize that you don't know everything, and your opinion is worth something only to you.

[ASturge]

Dude, the little winky -->  meant i was yanking your chain. No offence was intended!

Dang...

Should've seen that emoticon.....

pffffft

[Kid Amnesiac]

Dr. David Thorpe > You

[Kai]

and about all these comments about pitchfork... Will you guys just give it a rest?  I mean with all the people who have no idea what underground music is let alone that it exists, do we really have to be such stuck up fuckheads that we can't even read a review from a team of people passionate about the same (if not similar) music that we are??  I mean think about it.  If you're reading this right now, chances are music means a whole lot to you.  If that’s so can't you just respect the opinions of others and say "I disagree" rather than "OMG PITCHFORK IS GHEY"

Firstoff: Pitchfork does not have same or similar, or even close of a musical taste as me. Just get that out of the way. And I don't think anybody called Pitchfork "Ghey" (dumbest spelling ever), but rather pretentious assholes. Which is pretty much a straight definition of Pitchfork. and that is not something that can be argued against very well.