Topic: changin time signatures (Read 34297 times)

Mikendher · « **on:** 17 Oct 2005, 15:36 »

I really like it when songs change time signatures, especially when it sounds natural. what kinds of bands do you guys like who do this?

also, it's really awesome to do one time signature over another so they overlay into the product, though i don't know any music that does this

MilkmanDan · « **Reply #1 on:** 17 Oct 2005, 16:02 »

Math Rock

RUMBLEMOOSE · « **Reply #2 on:** 17 Oct 2005, 16:26 »

Percy Grainger has a few pieces that mess with time signatures a lot. Most of Lincolnshire Posy, for example; the beginning of one movement doesn't have a time signature, and one whole movement changes time signature almost every measure, adding in little 1/8 and 1/16 bars.

<--- band geek

Also, the Mahavishnu Orchestra had some weird metric shifting going on in a lot of songs. "Vital Transformation" is basically in 4-and-a-half/4 (there are four pulses, but one of them is half a beat longer than the others) but then lapses into 9/8 every once in a while.

Two signatures at once is called "polymeter" and Bartok used it a bit and I just looked it up on Google so I'm basically cheating.

SpacemanSpiff · « **Reply #3 on:** 17 Oct 2005, 16:42 »

Let me add the Wikipedia entry here, I found it most useful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Math_rock
As a math rock geek, I would have to say that a few the bands mentioned in the link above are not exactly of core importance to the genre. A list about math rock without Shellac for example is simply incomplete.

Apart from that: I'm a drummer, so rhythmical complexity really appeals to me and straight songs often seem really boring to me, even if the music as such isn't.

For bands, I would recommend: Shellac, North of America, June of 44, Slint, Polvo, Bastro, Don Caballero, Drive Like Jehu, 31 Knots, Ruins, The Flying Luttenbachers (though the later two could also be considered avantgarde jazz or something). Those are the ones I like a lot that I can name off the top of my hat.

For some prime examples, check out:
Shellac - Didn't We Deserve A Look At You The Way You Really Are - extremely precisely played song with very subtle drumming variation
Shellac - Song Against Itself - The last part has guitars and bass and drums battling each other rhythmically, only to suddenly find a single beat again
North of America - Wet to Dance - Excellent transition from 4/4 to 13/8 in the chorus
North of America - Yes, This Is A Rant - the classic mathy 3/4 to 4/4 and back thing
North of America - Every Mirror We Broke Was A Black Cat - 9/8, 4/4, 7/8 ... what the hell?
June of 44 - Cut Your Face - too lazy to add comments from now on
31 Knots - The Story of Ivan Normal
Drive Like Jehu - Here Come The Rome Plows

If you want something harder, check out technical hardcore, with bands such as Into The Moat, Ion Dissonance, Botch or Dillinger Escape Plan. Very complex songs that pack a lot of punch too.
Some grindcore bands, such as The Locust and Daughters also have very complex songs, even if it sounds like complete chaos at first.

As for Ruins and The Flying Luttenbachers: Especially the latter are rhythmically so complex that mentioning beats would be useless anyway. This is certainly not for the faint of heart, but if you like complex time signatures, you will love them.

If you want to, I can hook you up with links to tons of free (and legal) MP3s, but I'm too lazy to just post them here without any certain interest.

RUMBLEMOOSE · « **Reply #4 on:** 17 Oct 2005, 16:48 »

Oh shit, Don Cab. "Don Caballero 3" is an experience. I've been listening to it for three years (nonstop, mind you) and I still can't figure out what the hell is going on.

Links to sheet music would blow my gourd. kthx

SpacemanSpiff · « **Reply #5 on:** 17 Oct 2005, 16:53 »

In case anyone is mad enough to tab Don Caballero or The Flying Luttenbachers, hook me up as well. I'm sorry I can't help you there.

By the way, as I said, The Flying Luttenbachers are even more complex than Don Caballero.

If you want something mathy and rather complex (and happen to play drums, I'm sorry, I only have those) I can hook you up with sheet music for The Sound Of Muzak by Porcupine Tree. It's more prog, but hey, 4/4, 7/8 and some other fancy crap make for a nice experience as well.

Gryff · « **Reply #6 on:** 17 Oct 2005, 17:53 »

Neil Young - 'Words (Between the Lines of Age)'

Greatest time signature change. Standard 4/4 beat for the verse, then a sweet 3/4 waltz for the chorus. Brilliant.

Luke · « **Reply #7 on:** 17 Oct 2005, 20:07 »

They Both Reached For The Gun, from Chicago. 4/4 in the verses, 3/4 in the chorus.

I just find the song amusing, really.

stale · « **Reply #8 on:** 17 Oct 2005, 22:37 »

Quote from: Mikendher

also, it's really awesome to do one time signature over another so they overlay into the product, though i don't know any music that does this

the guitars in the books' "it never changes to stop" are all in different time sigs, it's cool.

Storm Rider · « **Reply #9 on:** 17 Oct 2005, 22:38 »

Dream Theater's music has plenty of nearly seamless time changes. Mike Portnoy is incredible.

Signum_Tenebrae · « **Reply #10 on:** 18 Oct 2005, 00:09 »

Meshuggah...

even though they suck

kikanjuuneko · « **Reply #11 on:** 18 Oct 2005, 00:45 »

To continue on the "really heavy" path: I can recommend Between the Buried and Me. Some very, uh, schizophrenic stuff. Like death-thrash-metalcore-emo-elevator-music. Woo! New genre!

Patrick · « **Reply #12 on:** 18 Oct 2005, 03:17 »

I love how the beginning to "White Room" by Cream is in 5/4 (like the Mission Impossible theme) and then the rest of it is in 4/4. And then there's "Money" by Pink Floyd which is some kind of kooky 7/4 thing which goes into 4/4 for the guitar solo, which is completely fecking nuts, but it's still badass.

Can anybody tell me what that trippy-ass time signature to "The Ocean" by Zeppelin is? I can't figure it out. I can play it, sure, I just don't know what the signature is. Nuts.

kikanjuuneko · « **Reply #13 on:** 18 Oct 2005, 04:57 »

I thought I read somewhere that the Mission Impossible theme was in 7/8. Either way, it still amuses me that Limp Bizkit had to change the time signature for their MI2 version, because they were too dumb to play the one it was in originally.

EDIT: 666th post! HAIL SATAN!

dessa · « **Reply #14 on:** 18 Oct 2005, 05:21 »

Quote from: Storm Rider

Dream Theater's music has plenty of nearly seamless time changes. Mike Portnoy is incredible.

i prefered him in liquid tension, i thought overall (on top of the fact that everyone in liquid tension was awesome) that he did much better work for that.

Patrick · « **Reply #15 on:** 18 Oct 2005, 05:45 »

LOLimp Bizkit. They can't even spell "biscuit" properly just because they have to keep up their stupid LOL WE ROK HARD YAYAYA image.

MilkmanDan · « **Reply #16 on:** 18 Oct 2005, 07:28 »

Ok. Well, thanks for that interlude.
On the, you know, topic:

Don Caballero. Yes.
Oxes. Yes.
Youthmovie Soundtrack Strategies. Yes.
Hella. Yes.

Hella only have 2 members, but they still pack in more time signitures than a lorry carrying away the finished goods from a time signiture packing plant.
BEHOLD HELLA ROCKING OUT
I don't know much about drumming, but either this guy is having a series of concurrent epileptic fits, or he's goddamn amazing. I know even less about guitatring, so I'm not going to pass comment on that element.

Thrillho · « **Reply #17 on:** 18 Oct 2005, 09:04 »

Pink Floyd - Money 7/8 to 4/4 and back to 7/8
Thursday - 4/4 to 6/8 to 4/4
The Beatles - Mean Mr. Mustard 4/4 to 3/4
The Beatles - I Me Mine 3/4 to 4/4 to 3/4 to 4/4 to 3/4!

And uh...Linkin Park actually have a song called From The Inside where a 6/8 riff is played over 4/4...

SpacemanSpiff · « **Reply #18 on:** 18 Oct 2005, 09:59 »

I know I'm whoring that band to no extent, but for time signature fuckery, North of America's This Is Dancefloor Numerology really is excellent.

Another case in point:
North of America - Minus Sign - starts with a 4/4 beat, except that one guitar keeps playing a 3/4 beat (unlike the other guitar and the bass, which play 4/4, the vocals are completely fucked up anyway, beat-wise), only to launch into a 3/4, back to 4/4, back to 3/4

And to prove that time signature changes can be danceable, try Minus The Bear. Their songs are pretty complex actually (have a look at Absinthe Party At The Fly Warehouse, for example).

Kai · « **Reply #19 on:** 18 Oct 2005, 14:19 »

Quote from: kikanjuuneko

To continue on the "really heavy" path: I can recommend Between the Buried and Me. Some very, uh, schizophrenic stuff. Like death-thrash-metalcore-emo-elevator-music. Woo! New genre!

Seconded. They're pretty badass.

Valrus · « **Reply #20 on:** 18 Oct 2005, 14:26 »

Anyone want to tell me what the deal is with the time signatures in Frank Black's "Two Reelers?"

Decima · « **Reply #21 on:** 18 Oct 2005, 14:30 »

Tools album Lateralis contains lots of funny signatures, like 5/4-7/4 and 2/4-2/4-6/4-6/4. Isnt it balkan music that has a pulse that changes pace in each bar?

Patrick · « **Reply #22 on:** 18 Oct 2005, 14:51 »

Decima.. I was reading an article by Steve Vai in Guitar World and he said one of his inspirations for his trippy signatures is Bulgarian wedding music.

oceansaway · « **Reply #23 on:** 18 Oct 2005, 17:13 »

Quote from: DynamiteKid

Pink Floyd - Money 7/8 to 4/4 and back to 7/8
Thursday - 4/4 to 6/8 to 4/4
The Beatles - Mean Mr. Mustard 4/4 to 3/4
The Beatles - I Me Mine 3/4 to 4/4 to 3/4 to 4/4 to 3/4!

And uh...Linkin Park actually have a song called From The Inside where a 6/8 riff is played over 4/4...

Which Thursday song?

RUMBLEMOOSE · « **Reply #24 on:** 18 Oct 2005, 18:01 »

Standing On the Edge of Summer? Or was there another one?

Also, Zep's "The Ocean" goes between 4/4 and 3-and-a-half/4, I believe, for whoever it was who asked. And "Lateralus" the song has a chorus going from 9/8 to 8/8 to 7/8, verses in 5/8, and a bridge in 12/8 while the drums play in 5/8 or 5/16 or something.

Thrillho · « **Reply #25 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 08:37 »

Quote from: oceansaway

Quote from: DynamiteKid
Pink Floyd - Money 7/8 to 4/4 and back to 7/8
Thursday - 4/4 to 6/8 to 4/4
The Beatles - Mean Mr. Mustard 4/4 to 3/4
The Beatles - I Me Mine 3/4 to 4/4 to 3/4 to 4/4 to 3/4!

And uh...Linkin Park actually have a song called From The Inside where a 6/8 riff is played over 4/4...

Which Thursday song?

Oh, sorry - Signals Over The Air.

And speaking of Frank Black - Mr. Grieves, starts off in 4/4 (I think) and then goes to 6/8.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #26 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 08:41 »

I am hopeless with your crazy kids whacked out time signatures. I am, however, trying to make a track in 66/6 time, but it's, er, irksome.

I probably don't even pick up on this kind of thing when it happens. I would, however, imagine Crotchduster have some pretty whacked out time changes.

Patrick · « **Reply #27 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 14:23 »

There's also "Those Were The Days" by Cream. It alternates between 4/4 and 2/4. And "White Room" goes from 6/6 to 4/4, but I think I already mentioned that (cannae remember, heh).

Patrick · « **Reply #28 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 14:25 »

Oh, and "The Crunge" by Led Zeppelin, which is in 5/4 but changes to 4/4.

Storm Rider · « **Reply #29 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 17:19 »

Quote from: RUMBLEMOOSE

Standing On the Edge of Summer? Or was there another one?

Also, Zep's "The Ocean" goes between 4/4 and 3-and-a-half/4, I believe, for whoever it was who asked. And "Lateralus" the song has a chorus going from 9/8 to 8/8 to 7/8, verses in 5/8, and a bridge in 12/8 while the drums play in 5/8 or 5/16 or something.

I have never heard of time signatures with half-beats. Are you sure it wasn't 7/8?

Because if that really is true, John Bonham was an even better drummer than I thought.

somewhat_removed · « **Reply #30 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 18:03 »

Dream Theater/Liquid Tension, Tool and Meshuggah would be the obvious recommendations, but i've already been beat to it.

so i'm gonna have to go with... Pain of Salvation or Dillinger Escape Plan.

Soundgarden stuff also has some pretty seamless timechange stuff. i never even really gave it a thought till i started playing their stuff, either.

La Creme · « **Reply #31 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 18:40 »

Quote from: KimJongSick

Oh, and "The Crunge" by Led Zeppelin, which is in 5/4 but changes to 4/4.

9/8 actually. And the other part is 3 bars of 4/4 and one bar of 5/4.

Liquid Tension Experiment - Another Dimension
Liquid Tension Experiment - Biaxedent
The Sugarplastic - The Harvestman (Daddy Longlegs) [smoothest transision from 3/4 to 4/4 in the history of anything ever.]
Mahavishnu Orchestra - Awakening (it is way the fuck crazier than Vital Transformation)
John McLaughlin - Arjen's Bag [perfect 11/8 the whole way through]
Jacob Fred Jazz Odyssey - There Is No Method [2 bars of 3/4, one bar of 7/4, repeat.]
Dave Brubeck - Blue Rondo a la Turk [9/8, 4/4 on solos]
Keith Jarrett - The Windup [4/4, 12/8, and all over the place in the solos]
801 - East Of Asteroid [a segment of this song is in fucking 13/8]
The Bad Plus - Big Eater [7/8, I think. Nobody's really sure. It's up for debate.]
The Bad Plus - Heart Of Glass [They do part of the song in 7/8. They always fuck with the classics. They play part of Iron Man in a major key. GENIUS.]

The ones with nothing written next to them are that way because I have no idea what the fuck is gonig on in them. I guess part of Biaxident is in 4/4 and some is in 7/8, but it goes MAD WILD!

EDIT: Also, Mr. Mustard is all in 4/4. It is a trick of the vocals.

Valrus · « **Reply #32 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 19:46 »

Ok. John Cage's Sonatas & Interludes for Prepared Piano. For starters. Lots of 20th century classical music will fuck your shit right up.

As for popular music, I humbly submit the following:
Radiohead, "Morning Bell" (Kid A version), in 5/4
Radiohead, "Paranoid Android", with guitar solos in 7/4 (I never even noticed this until I read about it)
The Beatles, "Good Morning Good Morning", in 5/4
Pixies, "Oh My Golly!", with an intro in 5/4 in some sense
Pixies, "Trompe Le Monde", in 4/4 with bridge in 6/8

Valrus · « **Reply #33 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 19:48 »

Quote from: KimJongSick

And "White Room" goes from 6/6 to 4/4, but I think I already mentioned that (cannae remember, heh).

6/6?

La Creme · « **Reply #34 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 20:39 »

General Patton Vs. The X-ecutioners - ?Kamikaze! 0500 Hrs. ("Take A Peice Of Me")

Insane at the begining. Seriously.

Also, Emerson, Lake, and Palmer - Trilogy is maybe the smoothest 5/4 ever.

Storm Rider · « **Reply #35 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 21:09 »

Quote from: La Creme

John McLaughlin - Arjen's Bag [perfect 11/8 the whole way through]

Damn. I've played stuff in 12/8, and that can be pretty hard on its own, but 11/8 has got to be one of the most whacked-out signatures I've ever seen.

Well, except the time I saw 17/4.

La Creme · « **Reply #36 on:** 19 Oct 2005, 22:54 »

12/8 isn't that weird. Sounds piratey. Combines 3/4 and 4/4 sounds. Good time.

McTaggart · « **Reply #37 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 02:21 »

Damn. Once again my complete lack of knowledge of technical music stuff clubs me to death.

coldcut · « **Reply #38 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 05:14 »

I don't know anywhere near enough about music to go into technical detail, but I do know a secondhand fact that Faraquet, a jeph jaques recommended band (and a coldcut recommended band for that matter) are known for their various rhythmic complexities.

Patrick · « **Reply #39 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 05:41 »

Quote from: Storm Rider

Damn. I've played stuff in 12/8, and that can be pretty hard on its own

Wot? 12/8 is easier than my friend's mum after her 5th shot of Cuervo. You ever heard "Since I've Been Loving You" by Zeppelin? That's in 12/8, and it's one of the easiest drum parts I've ever played.

I don't know what the hell is up with "Kashmir" by Zep. It's like, 4/4 but the riff is 5 measures? Then for a different riff, it's just a 4 measure riff, but then it goes back to the 5 measure guy. Freaking weird.

Need I even mention Rush?

SpacemanSpiff · « **Reply #40 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 09:46 »

Quote from: Storm Rider

Damn. I've played stuff in 12/8, and that can be pretty hard on its own, but 11/8 has got to be one of the most whacked-out signatures I've ever seen.

Well, except the time I saw 17/4.

Actually, 12/8 is pretty easy to play. Everything that's 4/4 or 3/4 based is actually rather easy to play.
The higher odd numbers are hard to play because a beat takes so long (or can take long, depending on the speed) and if you're playing a complex rhythm along with that, it's easy to get lost. Like 11/8 and 13/8. Or 7/4 or 11/4.

Patrick · « **Reply #41 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 10:43 »

I'm SO going to write a song in 198/197.

Decima · « **Reply #42 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 10:43 »

Quote from: RUMBLEMOOSE

Percy Grainger has a few pieces that mess with time signatures a lot. Most of Lincolnshire Posy, for example; the beginning of one movement doesn't have a time signature, and one whole movement changes time signature almost every measure, adding in little 1/8 and 1/16 bars.

<--- band geek

Also, the Mahavishnu Orchestra had some weird metric shifting going on in a lot of songs. "Vital Transformation" is basically in 4-and-a-half/4 (there are four pulses, but one of them is half a beat longer than the others) but then lapses into 9/8 every once in a while.

Two signatures at once is called "polymeter" and Bartok used it a bit and I just looked it up on Google so I'm basically cheating.

Haha, the Mahavishnu orchestra are so cool! Okay, Ive really just heard one live LP, but it was wierderthan noodles on icecream. Rock played like hysteric jazz.

Decima · « **Reply #43 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 10:52 »

Quote from: KimJongSick

Decima.. I was reading an article by Steve Vai in Guitar World and he said one of his inspirations for his trippy signatures is Bulgarian wedding music.

Well aint I a miracle of musical cunning ^^

Thrillho · « **Reply #44 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 13:19 »

Quote from: SpacemanSpiff

Quote from: Storm Rider
Damn. I've played stuff in 12/8, and that can be pretty hard on its own, but 11/8 has got to be one of the most whacked-out signatures I've ever seen.

Well, except the time I saw 17/4.

Actually, 12/8 is pretty easy to play. Everything that's 4/4 or 3/4 based is actually rather easy to play.
The higher odd numbers are hard to play because a beat takes so long (or can take long, depending on the speed) and if you're playing a complex rhythm along with that, it's easy to get lost. Like 11/8 and 13/8. Or 7/4 or 11/4.

5/4 is pretty easy. I adore 8/8, that one's awesome.

You know what's a bitch? 9/8. That one's a motherfucker.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #45 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 14:17 »

Quote from: Valrus

6/6?

Six sixths of a note per measure, I presume? What is that dotted quavers or something...? I can't stand theory.

Valrus · « **Reply #46 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 15:01 »

Quote from: DynamiteKid

You know what's a bitch? 9/8. That one's a motherfucker.

The hell it is. If 12/8 is just 3/4 * 4/4 (musically, not mathematically, speaking), then 9/8 is just 3/4 * 3/4.

Think three groups of three: BUM-bum-bum BUM-bum-bum BUM-bum-bum.

5/4 is way harder, because 5 is prime (mathematically speaking). So if you want to divide it up, every measure is either 2+3 or 3+2, there's no consistent way to equally subdivide it.

Regarding 6/6: that would mean 6 beats per measure, one dotted quaver per beat, so in spite of your loathing, Khar, you're right. I just have difficulty imagining how that would be useful in a piece of music. But then, I also can't really tell what the use of 2/2 is when it's essentially the same as 4/4, so I guess I'd just have to hear the song.

Quote from: KimJongSick

I'm SO going to write a song in 198/197.

That song is going to be 2 measures long. You might as well just throw out the time signature altogether.

SpacemanSpiff · « **Reply #47 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 15:26 »

Valrus pretty much pointed out what, at least to me, makes a beat hard: A prime number/4 or 8 or whatever style beat.
Because prime numbers always sound odd, especially if they're also arranged in a weird fashion (like having pauses which make playing feeling-wise impossible altogether).
Of course that's also why I like those beats. At least they require thinking.

RUMBLEMOOSE · « **Reply #48 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 15:39 »

Quote from: Storm Rider

I have never heard of time signatures with half-beats. Are you sure it wasn't 7/8?

Basically the same thing, but I've heard it called 3-and-a-half instead of seven because quarter notes are definitely getting the beatlong pulse.
1_2_3_41_2_3_41
instead of
123456712345671

that is, if that reads like anything aside from a jumble of numbers.

And I've read that Kashmir is a simple example of polymeter: drums in 4/4, everything else in 6/4.

By the way, I think for most musicians, anything in */6 would be all but impossible to read, which is probably why a lot of music is not written that way. Unless you've got an easy way to notate a sixth note.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #49 on:** 20 Oct 2005, 15:42 »

I'd call it tabs and a strumming diagram personally!

Scoff, but that would have no problem with 6/6 if you had already heard the piece.

THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

Author Topic: changin time signatures (Read 34297 times)

Mikendher

MilkmanDan

RUMBLEMOOSE

SpacemanSpiff

RUMBLEMOOSE

SpacemanSpiff

Luke

Signum_Tenebrae

kikanjuuneko

kikanjuuneko

dessa

MilkmanDan

SpacemanSpiff

Decima

oceansaway

RUMBLEMOOSE

somewhat_removed

La Creme

La Creme

La Creme

coldcut

SpacemanSpiff

Decima

Decima

SpacemanSpiff

RUMBLEMOOSE