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[Valrus]

So i've been playing guitar in a hobbyist sort of way for like 6 years, but I feel like I ought to start getting a little more ambitious and, you know, take my playing to the "next level." I know a fair amount of music theory, so I thought maybe I should try to learn my way around (read: memorize) the fretboard so I could make use of it.

The problem is, it's damn boring and tedious, and all the methods I have to practice learning the notes don't involve actually playing the guitar. So I feel like there's kind of a disconnect between the knowledge and application thereof at this point.

I guess my question is: Has anyone else here tackled the task of learning the fretboard? How did you do it and, perhaps most importantly, keep it interesting?

[Soidanae]

Learnt the melodies of songs by reading the music, and did scales while saying the notes I was playing.

I got enough to find anything withing the first five frets very quickly.

[Bastardous Bassist]

Okay, here's what someone suggested to me, and it helped a bit.  If you've ever played D&D, then you probably have a D12, if not, go find a game store, and ask for a 12-sided die.  If you don't have a six-sided (the normal amount), then get one of those too.  Well, roll them both together.  The six-sided represents a string (i.e. 1=E, 2=A, 3=D, etc) and the 12-sided represents a fret.  So, a four on the six-sided and an eight on the 12-sided would be?  If you said Eb (D#), you'd be right.  Do that for a bit every day, and you'll probably know the neck a bit better.

Reading music also helps a ton.  I don't think I'd know the neck of my bass at all if I didn't read music.  Also, try to work out multiple different fingerings/positions for certain melodies.  Not only is this kind of work good for getting the notes down, the best fingering/position might not have be the first one you tried.

Good luck.

[Kai]

Yeah, I pretty much started out playing all of my music in sheet form anyways (as opposed to the general kid who buys a guitar and learns Green Day songs. go me) and I just played it a shitload.

[TrueNeutral]

So I break the mold by being the general kid who buys a guitar and learns Modest Mouse songs?

Man, I dunno what to tell you. I'm not serious about my guitar playing at all. I just prefer noodling around. Heck, I only read tablature.

[Misereatur]

The more you play the more you'll remember.
If I didnt work my ass off lerning new bass lines and playing them in different positions on the fret board I'd probably wouldnt even know how to read notes.

First thing to do is to remember the notes of the strings:
First string - Thickest - E
Second - A
Third - D
Fourth - G
Fifth - B
Sixth - E

Every fret is a half note, so that the first fret of the E string is F the second is F# and so on.

Paly on the first fret to the fourth fret on every string while saying the notes to yourself (F,F#,G,G# - next string:A#,B,C,C# and so on)
after you memorize them like this, move to the next four frets.

Do this a couple of times when you play, its a good exercise to warm up your fingers. Then you can just lern solos and melodys from guitar books and the internet, and instead of tabs use notes.

This is how I learnd. It could be a bit boring at first but playing an instrument requires work, and exercises are usually boring.

[Bastardous Bassist]

Every fret is a half step

Fixed.  Half note is a duration.

[KharBevNor]

This is how I learnd. It could be a bit boring at first but playing an instrument requires work, and exercises are usually boring.

That's why I don't do them. Maybe I will reach a plateau with my guitar playing because of this, but it hasn't happened yet.

EDIT: Also because I am too dumb for theory. I pick up bits and pieces, but the whole thing is too mathematical and awful, and it makes my brain hurt. And the 'guy who knows his shit' in the post below sounds like a cock. And this thread has made me depressed, because I'll never be a good guitarist.

[Rubby]

I also find that jamming with people that know their shit helps too. If your jamming and someone says "lets play a 3/4 time G blues scale song", you'll eventualy learn it once you get tired of making an ass out of yourself.

[Misereatur]

Every fret is a half step

Fixed.  Half note is a duration.

Oops, Sorry.
I just have to translate the terms from hebrew, mistakes can be made.
The importent thing is that you guys understand what I ment.

Also because I am too dumb for theory. I pick up bits and pieces, but the whole thing is too mathematical and awful, and it makes my brain hurt. And the 'guy who knows his shit' in the post below sounds like a cock. And this thread has made me depressed, because I'll never be a good guitarist.

I really didnt mean to be condescending, I just wanted give an example based on my expirience. If I sounded like a prick then i appologize.

And theory is really easy when you understand the basics.
Once you get scales. You'll understad pretty much everything.

[nescience]

One thing that helps: play a scale (say, E major) at its first position (for E major, open / 12th fret), then learning that same scale (ie, E major) at other positions.  Figuring out what modes come out from a simple major scale at different positions (ie C# minor at 6th position, G# Phrygian at 2nd position, etc.) always gave me a good fretboard roadmap.  It's diatonic, baby.

edit: I've been out of the game for a while, so I can't remember if the term "position" refers to relative fret number or the note relative to the scale.  I've used the second definition above, but forgive me if I'm wrong.

[Bastardous Bassist]

Position more closely refers to the fret number, it's it's not like "1st position is the first fret."  It's hand positions.  It's mainly used on classical stringed instruments, and not so much on guitar.  Here's an example of the first few positions from the nut:
1/2 position - index finger on the first fret (or half step up from the nut)
1st position - index finger on the second fret (or a whole step up from the nut)
and I'm not entirely sure where it goes from there.  I only have a passing understanding of it, from hearing people talk about it.  What you're talking about, I think, is scale degree.

The thing about theory is, for some people it's awesome, for some, their ear is better.  I mean, look at Jimi Hendrix.  Sure, not the greatest guitarist ever to live, but he was bloody revolutionary and furthermore he wrote and played stuff that sounded good.  He had no knowledge of theory, though.  Now, for people like I, who's ears suck, I have to use theory.  I don't use theory by just strictly going by it and not even caring what it sounds like.  I use theory as my way of predicting what it will sound like.  Eh, but nobody really cares about that, I'm just saying that I don't think not knowing theory will make you a poor musician.

edit:  Aside from correcting his musical terminology, I think nescience's idea is a good one.  Definitely learn the church modes, because it opens up a whole new way of playing.

[Misereatur]

The thing about theory is, for some people it's awesome, for some, their ear is better. I mean, look at Jimi Hendrix. Sure, not the greatest guitarist ever to live, but he was bloody revolutionary and furthermore he wrote and played stuff that sounded good. He had no knowledge of theory, though.  Now, for people like I, who's ears suck, I have to use theory. I don't use theory by just strictly going by it and not even caring what it sounds like.  I use theory as my way of predicting what it will sound like. Eh, but nobody really cares about that, I'm just saying that I don't think not knowing theory will make you a poor musician.

Totally agree, couldnt have said it better.

[TrueNeutral]

First thing to do is to remember the notes of the strings:
First string - Thickest - E
Second - A
Third - D
Fourth - G
Fifth - B
Sixth - E

With all due respect, I don't think learning the names of the notes really matters. It's the SOUND of them that's important. The only reason I know the notes of the strings is because I have a trick. I use the dutch sentence "Een Aap Die Geen Banaan Eet" which rougly translates into "A Monkey That Is Not Eating A Banana". The only reason I've ever actually needed them for is because it makes anything I write down in tablature look more professional.

[Bastardous Bassist]

*psst*  The thread starter mentioned a knowledge of music theory, the application of which involves knowing the notes on a guitar.

[TrueNeutral]

That may be so, but when someone says it's absolutely neccesary and I disagree, I'm going to say so.

[KharBevNor]

And theory is really easy when you understand the basics.
Once you get scales. You'll understad pretty much everything.

It's not though. I have something approaching mild dyscalculia, ie I am utterly shit at anything to do with numbers. If I try and even think of the rhythms of what I'm playing in terms of time signatures (rather than just DAH -Dum-dah-dum-dum-dah or whatever) I'll actually start freezing up. I hit notes and chords because I know where they are and what they sound like, and I know the notes of the strings and whatnot, it's just I phsyically can't play and think of things like that at the same time. It makes trying to learn bits of theory so much of a drag I just can't do it, or I wouldn't enjoy playing anymore, if you see what I mean. That's the problem.

[Misereatur]

That may be so, but when someone says it's absolutely neccesary and I disagree, I'm going to say so.

Valrus said that he wanted to know where every note is on the fret bord.
If you want to know the notes on the fret bord, your gonna have to know their names.

It's not though. I have something approaching mild dyscalculia, ie I am utterly shit at anything to do with numbers. If I try and even think of the rhythms of what I'm playing in terms of time signatures (rather than just DAH -Dum-dah-dum-dum-dah or whatever) I'll actually start freezing up. I hit notes and chords because I know where they are and what they sound like, and I know the notes of the strings and whatnot, it's just I phsyically can't play and think of things like that at the same time. It makes trying to learn bits of theory so much of a drag I just can't do it, or I wouldn't enjoy playing anymore, if you see what I mean. That's the problem.

Music theory exist so it will be easier to write music down.
If you can create the music that you want to create, and play with other people and enjoy yourself, then music theory is just an option, not a necessity.

[Valrus]

So I'm resurrecting my old thread:

I've started by learning how to play all the diatonic notes in the C major scale in the open position and four others. Presumably I can apply this knowledge to get the major scale in other keys as well when I get a better handle on some of the notes on the 5th and 6th strings.

What next? Minor scale? Blues scales? Pentatonics?

Also, I know what modes are, but I have no idea how to use them or how to learn them effectively. I guess what I'm getting at is, there's an awful lot of scales out there, and obviously learning one at a time is not an efficient way of going about getting familiar with them. Any suggestions as to ways to acquaint myself? Links to helpful web sites are also appreciated! Thanks in advance.

[TheMike]

an effective way to learn a scale is to learn how it is formed, so if you know what a major scale looks like, you can just make the 3rd, 6th, 7th flat and you have a minor.  To get a pentatonic, take the minor scale, and only use the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 7th.  To put the C scale into mixolydian mode, just play the scale form but starting on the 5th(G). I find learning a scale in relation to the root, like i was saying "1st, 2nd 3rd, etc" makes changing keys a whole lot easier and makes learning scales a lot easier.

example major scale =
1-C
2-D
3-E
4-F
5-G
6-A
7-B

c minor=
1-C
2-D
b3-Fb or E#
4-F
5-G
b6-Ab or G#
b7-Bb or A#

a major scale form on guitar is---

e----------------------------
B---------------------------
G-----------------------------
D----------------------2--3--
A------------1--3--5--------
E---1--3--5-----------------

minor

e----------------------------
B---------------------------
G-----------------------------
D----------------------1--3--
A------------1--3--4--------
E---1--3--4-----------------

i just think it helps to not see a scale as note C, D, etc, but as a series of seven notes that you can move around on and switch up to make other scales.

[mainmanmazz]

Another way to work out scales is this:

Major : C Major ( no sharps or flats)
C D E F G A B C
The semi tones are on the 3-4 and 7-8.
Minor : A minor ( no sharps or flats )
A B C D E F G sharp A
The semi tones in a minor are on 2-3 5-6 and 7-8

All you do is write down the notes your playing in the scale and make it so they match that form.

[Merkava]

So I break the mold by being the general kid who buys a guitar and learns Modest Mouse songs?

Man, I dunno what to tell you. I'm not serious about my guitar playing at all. I just prefer noodling around. Heck, I only read tablature.

Same. Going around the fretboard is pretty easy for me, but I mostly finger style using scales.

BTW, I've learned some of Dramamine and Blame it On the Tetons.

[Johnny C]

I suggest learning pentatonic, then blues, then minor. The rest of the scales are good to know but those are the really important ones; as well, both of those scales build off of the pentatonic.

Also, if you don't have the notes on the neck memorized, this might sound tedious, but just draw the fretboard, leave space in each fret, and write out all the notes up to the twelfth fret. It's what I've made both my guitar students do and they memorized the notes no sweat.

[Valrus]

Awesome suggestions, thanks.

Johnny C, I've done the writing-out-the-notes-on-paper thing and it didn't help that much, unfortunately. For some reason the notes just never started to stick that way. I'll probably pick that up again, though; I'm sure it can't hurt.

TheMike, as I mentioned in my original post, I do know quite a bit of theory, so there's that. But your suggestion of learning by intervals (at least, that's what you seem to be suggesting) seems like a good one and I will try it out.

mainmanmazz, the minor scale you mentioned is actually a harmonic minor scale

So how do I keep from just doing rote up-and-down scale exercises? Is it possible to put this stuff into use (i.e. playing against a simple chord progression backing track) without putting in 50 hours of scale memorization first? I think I need to work on my "feel," if you will, so I'm also soliciting suggestions regarding playing with simple accompaniment.