THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)
Comic Discussion => QUESTIONABLE CONTENT => Topic started by: questionablecontentfan on 09 Jun 2011, 08:58
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I may be in the minority here, but I think yes.
...sorry, Tai. : (
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Dora shouldn't attempt a relationship with anyone.
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Dora shouldn't attempt a relationship with anyone.
Because dating =/= a relationship.
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Dora shouldn't attempt a relationship with anyone...yet.
Fixed your post a little bit.
Dora isn't ready for a relationship...yet. The fact is her dating past is littered with presumably abusive exes, her view of relationships has been coloured by her brother's actions (people only being "friends" with her just to be near Sven), Sven's own "Shag 'em and leave 'em" attitude pre-Faye. If we look at the last somewhat decent romantic relationship, with Marten, Dora sabotaged that relationship, for what reason beyond it seemed too good to be true? (Even Sven said that Marten was the best guy she had ever gone out with)
Dora has a lot of issues with men that she needs to work through, and until then, no, I don't think she should go out with Jim or Tai, until she's alright. Otherwise it'll end in tears.
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: (
Obviously Jim doesn't have those ulterior motives, he's just really attracted to her (and her personality, it seems).
I mean, just because she's not ready for a relationship doesn't mean they couldn't just date and see where things went.
I don't know, Jim seems nice. It helps that he's older and hopefully a bit more mature than Marten was, so that might help.
Well, presumably, if she has issues with men, dating Tai would be ok. The reason I have problems with Tai is because Tai is very young and impulsive, and also because she doesn't believe in monogamy. A monogamous person dating a non monogamous person can create lots of complications. Also, she's Marten's boss...
Maybe it's not a good idea, but if I were Dora I would go to dinner with Jim. It's just dinner, it's not like they're getting married or anything. Jim obviously has his own baggage from his divorce, so that could be drama waiting to happen if Dora was to date him seriously. Picture the ex wife showing up...eek.
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The reason I have problems with Tai is because Tai is very young and impulsive, and also because she doesn't believe in monogamy. A monogamous person dating a non monogamous person can create lots of complications.
I do remember her expressing a real desire for monogamy and hating that none of the smif girls seemed to really be into it, so I think you've got Tai pegged wrong here. I'm sure an archive ninja could find the exact comic.
Of course, I'm also in the camp of "Dora please sort out your issues before you contemplate any dating."
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QCfan, I said men because although Dora might identify herself as bisexual, we've seen no proof that any of her exes were women. But that doesn't mean that she should go out with Tai either. Tai is looking for a monogomous relationship, but is herself too immature to actually think about what she wants, and is too impulsive for her own good. Mix that with Dora as is she is and both parties would be extremely hurt, very quickly.
Another point that was raised in the WCDT, is that Dora and Jim are new business partners, so for them to go out on even a date is just asking for trouble. (Don't mix business with pleasure seems extremely appropriate, theres also another saying that pretty much says the same thing, but has considerably more swearwords involved).
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Fail. It should be a poll, with Waffles as an option. :angel:
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Been pointed out already, but it hasn't been established whether Jim's asking Dora out, or whether this is a hilariously misinterpreted request to talk business in neutral but pleasant surroundings. Of course, there was one critically acclaimed sitcom that pretty much was defined by double-entendre.
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Personally, I think a relationship with Jim could be a positive light in Dora's life. Martin was nice and sweet but young and still confused and unsure about what he wants from life.
Jim on the other hand is older, established and stable (or what passes for stable for Jim), and a responsible business owner like Dora. The only issues I could see in this particular relationship would be that both Dora and Jim have businesses that compete directly, though that could be easily solved by a joint venture into some sort of bastardized Mega Coffee of Ultimate Doom. (if Jeph uses that name, I get a nickle every time someone reads it.)
So, for my part, I'd like to see this story line continued.
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:? what if she says yes and later Tai stops by to offer an invite and she declines because she has a date! :psyduck:
honestly I still think Dora needs to do more soul searching before dating anyone. And to be honest I dont like Tai or Jum as the next person even if she was theoretically "ready."
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Personally, I think a relationship with Jim could be a positive light in Dora's life. Martin was nice and sweet but young and still confused and unsure about what he wants from life.
Jim on the other hand is older, established and stable (or what passes for stable for Jim), and a responsible business owner like Dora. The only issues I could see in this particular relationship would be that both Dora and Jim have businesses that compete directly, though that could be easily solved by a joint venture into some sort of bastardized Mega Coffee of Ultimate Doom. (if Jeph uses that name, I get a nickle every time someone reads it.)
So, for my part, I'd like to see this story line continued.
Yeah, but what ended the relationship was Dora feeling that Marten was going to leave HER because she wasn't good enough.
How would dating someone who is arguably BETTER OFF help that?
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Personally, I think a relationship with Jim could be a positive light in Dora's life. Martin was nice and sweet but young and still confused and unsure about what he wants from life.
Jim on the other hand is older, established and stable (or what passes for stable for Jim), and a responsible business owner like Dora. The only issues I could see in this particular relationship would be that both Dora and Jim have businesses that compete directly, though that could be easily solved by a joint venture into some sort of bastardized Mega Coffee of Ultimate Doom. (if Jeph uses that name, I get a nickle every time someone reads it.)
So, for my part, I'd like to see this story line continued.
Yeah, but what ended the relationship was Dora feeling that Marten was going to leave HER because she wasn't good enough.
How would dating someone who is arguably BETTER OFF help that?
Bringing up Dora's feelings of abandonment is a valid point. Though I think that the situation with Faye helped to feed that feeling unfairly in that particular case and admittedly, the long history between Martin and Faye would have been cause for anyone with even slight feelings of inadequacy to tick towards destruction.
Now I'm not saying that Jim's responsibility and more mature life (an assumption based on age and job only), would be the shining light that Dora is in need of, only that without any sort of immediate catalyst for jealousy and fear, there is a greater chance for long term happiness and stability that Dora deserves.
Now I'm not sure what you meant by better off, but if it was referring to being financially better off, then it never hurts to be financially stable in a relationship since it's just one less stress on everyone. If, however, you meant emotionally, well I would think, metaphorically, that it's easier to start a new journey with your first footsteps on solid ground than on quicksand.
On the other hand I could be WAY off target, lol.
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How would dating someone who is arguably BETTER OFF help that?
Obviously, she should look for someone "worse" than herself -- that's the best way to combat insecurities.
/this thread is already off to a good start ^^
That is seriously twisting what I was saying. I've already stated in the thread that she should focus on her problems first alone before dating at all. I was pointing out that, dating someone more mature wouldn't magically solve her insecurity problems.
Honestly, Marten's maturity was really never an issue in their relationship anyway.
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I'd say it was more her maturity, granted also her insecurities.
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*Dusts off the old hardhat, and hits the reply button*
Right, long rambling wall of Kazukagii stream of consciousness incoming.
Personally I just don't think Dora will do it. Dora is well aware that is was her own problems that lead to breaking up with Marten, and while Jeph has shown she's attending therepy, I don't think enough time has passed that she's totally okay now. Dora knows that any relationship she enters into is going to turn toxic. Not to mention I know (or at least hope) that dating another guy before even having any kind of post relationship talk with Marten may just hurt our skinny indie boy's feelings a tad. Now as I say this I am not talking down on Jim: he seems like a pretty cool guy. I'm putting it forth that Dora has enough sense to turn this down, not based on her like or dislike of Jim, but rather on the fact that it really won't end well for anybody involved, or even anybody watching from the sidelines.
Also I'd just like to point out that I find it amusing that half the cast is suddenly pining for Dora. Marten was apparently the one thing keeping the entire city from jumping Dora's bones.
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I say yes, and admit I'm biased because I prefer older men.
Jim seems like he'll be good for her, even if they only have one date and end up as friends. He'll be a good business mentor, at the very least.
And if they do end up dating, he seems like the kind of man who can both call her out and help her with her insecurity issues. That's something I don't think Tai can do, as much as I'd love to be a hardcore "Dora and Tai should get together for sexy fun time" shipper". ;)
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I like the fact that Jim just went ahead and asked, even though he was probably nervous. No pretending, no being silly, no playing games. He just did it. I think that shows that he is mature. And yes, I was a sucker for the compliment he gave her about being a woman and not a little girl. ;)
And yes, I am pretty sure he is asking her on a date, not to talk business.
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Why does anyone give a damn what a given ex thinks re: starting to date other people? Dora shouldn't care how Marten feels about her dating someone else and Marten shouldn't be pining around waiting to talk to her about breaking up before he moves on with his life, either.
They broke up, there is no reason to keep dwelling on that fact or have any more talks about it coming up on two months down the road comic-time, is there?
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Bringing up Dora's feelings of abandonment is a valid point. Though I think that the situation with Faye helped to feed that feeling unfairly in that particular case and admittedly, the long history between Martin and Faye would have been cause for anyone with even slight feelings of inadequacy to tick towards destruction.
Now I'm not saying that Jim's responsibility and more mature life (an assumption based on age and job only), would be the shining light that Dora is in need of, only that without any sort of immediate catalyst for jealousy and fear, there is a greater chance for long term happiness and stability that Dora deserves.
Now I'm not sure what you meant by better off, but if it was referring to being financially better off, then it never hurts to be financially stable in a relationship since it's just one less stress on everyone. If, however, you meant emotionally, well I would think, metaphorically, that it's easier to start a new journey with your first footsteps on solid ground than on quicksand.
On the other hand I could be WAY off target, lol.
Except, when you look at Dora and Marten's relationship, he was good for Dora, especially compared to Dora's ex boyfriends. 1746 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1746), Sven admitted that Marten was the first guy she ever dated that ever treated her kindly, respected her. In short Marten was the first healthy relationship Dora ever had. He was a step forward for her.
Then she broke up with him because of that simple fact, that Marten was a nice guy, with no ulterior motive, wasn't a douchebag, which raised a lot of questions for Dora about her, was she the reason that her other relationships were so bad? etc, etc. Granted, Marten was listless, about as assertive as a jellyfish on a beach, he wasn't perfect, but the fact that she broke up with him in a pre-emptive attempt to not be the one hurt here, speaks volumes about Dora's mind.
So imagine what would happen if we take Jim, who is presumably a nice guy (his staff don't talk about him behind his back), responsible and assertive (he'd have to be, in order to still have a bakery that was still open, and able to employ at least three people (we haven't scar-neck since that one panel)) ended up going out with Dora. He'd be like super-Marten, and Dora's mind would probably break down from the belief that Jim was so far out of her league.
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Dora broke up with Marten because he had unresolved feelings for Faye. This won't be an issue with Jim.
I second the older men comment. There's just something...
There is the question of whether Dora actually feels any attraction to Jim. Maybe she does, but she hid it. Or maybe this incident will make her realize it. I don't know.
If she does date Jim, it won't make Tai very happy, that's for sure.
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Why does anyone give a damn what a given ex thinks re: starting to date other people? Dora shouldn't care how Marten feels about her dating someone else and Marten shouldn't be pining around waiting to talk to her about breaking up before he moves on with his life, either.
They broke up, there is no reason to keep dwelling on that fact or have any more talks about it coming up on two months down the road comic-time, is there?
Because they still care about each other? Not in a together way, but they still do care about each others feelings. It may be different for me, because I've never done the CUT ALL TIES WITH YOUR EXES thing, and am friends with almost all of them still, but I care how what I do makes them feel, even if I think they are being irrational about it.
Now, as far as the whole Dora starting to date so soon after dumping Marten, its not about them breaking up, its WHY they broke up. From what she said, it wasn't that she didn't love him, it was that SHE COULDN'T FUNCTION IN ANY RELATIONSHIP. I don't know about you, but if a girl broke up with me claiming that, and then turned around and started dating again not long after... maybe its a bit irrational, but this is the moment that it would really hit that she isn't in love with me anymore. Breaking up and the feelings of love don't always end at the same time.
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Except, when you look at Dora and Marten's relationship, he was good for Dora, especially compared to Dora's ex boyfriends. 1746 (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1746), Sven admitted that Marten was the first guy she ever dated that ever treated her kindly, respected her. In short Marten was the first healthy relationship Dora ever had. He was a step forward for her.
Then she broke up with him because of that simple fact, that Marten was a nice guy, with no ulterior motive, wasn't a douchebag, which raised a lot of questions for Dora about her, was she the reason that her other relationships were so bad? etc, etc. Granted, Marten was listless, about as assertive as a jellyfish on a beach, he wasn't perfect, but the fact that she broke up with him in a pre-emptive attempt to not be the one hurt here, speaks volumes about Dora's mind.
So imagine what would happen if we take Jim, who is presumably a nice guy (his staff don't talk about him behind his back), responsible and assertive (he'd have to be, in order to still have a bakery that was still open, and able to employ at least three people (we haven't scar-neck since that one panel)) ended up going out with Dora. He'd be like super-Marten, and Dora's mind would probably break down from the belief that Jim was so far out of her league.
So are you saying that Dora simply used Faye as a means to act upon her insecurities with Martin rather than Faye being an actual catalyst? If that's the case then you doom Dora to a never ending loop of failed relationships, unable to ever be happy with anyone because she thinks she shouldn't be.
I would hate to see Dora stumble further down that road.
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Yes and no. I agree that her insecurities would have popped up with or without Faye existing.
But that doesn't mean she is fated to repeat it indefinitely. It means that she needs to deal with her issues (like she is currently trying to by going to therapy) BEFORE getting involved with someone else. I mean, I just don't see how she could get over relationship crippling insecurities in 2 months or however long its been since she started going to therapy.
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Where did it say that Marten had unresolved feelings for Faye? If anything, anything resembling a romantic relationship they could have had sank after Faye told Marten about her father's suicide. They went from being potentially knocking boots to best friends. The Toto moment cemented that, as did the comic with Marten "attacking" Angus, Scott Pilgrim style. The only one who ever felt there were unresolved issues between the pair was Dora. Thats one of the reasons Dora broke up with him.
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Where did it say that Marten had unresolved feelings for Faye? If anything, anything resembling a romantic relationship they could have had sank after Faye told Marten about her father's suicide. They went from being potentially knocking boots to best friends. The Toto moment cemented that, as did the comic with Marten "attacking" Angus, Scott Pilgrim style. The only one who ever felt there were unresolved issues between the pair was Dora. Thats one of the reasons Dora broke up with him.
Sorry, but I'm going to have to agree with Dora. I mean, look how he acted directly after he and Dora broke up. He was drunk and hitting on Faye. Through their relationship, Marten still had feelings for Faye, which Dora knew about, tried to deal with, couldn't deal with. I don't blame her, really. No, I don't think his feelings went away after Faye told him about her father's suicide. He still wanted Faye first, and was really only with Dora because he couldn't have Faye.
I see the thing with Jim going in a positive direction. Older men are a bit more...I don't know, willing to deal with issues, they're not as easily spooked as younger men are, they've gotten over some of that. Not entirely, but more. I mean, he got divorced for goodness' sake, he can deal with a woman in her mid-twenties with trust issues and baggage from a past relationship. Maybe after what he went through, he knows how to treat a woman better because he was treated so badly. I'm guessing, but it could be. I want to steal a quote I read somewhere: "I like older men. I like a man who knows his way around a woman's body and mind and doesn't have the immaturity issues younger men have."
As for being friends with exes, I don't get that at all. I don't think anyone should feel obligated to have a friendship with someone who may have ripped their heart out.
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Sorry, but I'm going to have to agree with Dora. I mean, look how he acted directly after he and Dora broke up. He was drunk and hitting on Faye. Through their relationship, Marten still had feelings for Faye, which Dora knew about, tried to deal with, couldn't deal with. I don't blame her, really. No, I don't think his feelings went away after Faye told him about her father's suicide. He still wanted Faye first, and was really only with Dora because he couldn't have Faye.
He was drunk and depressed. Drunk enough that he doesn't REMEMBER what he did. Was it stupid? Yeah, definitely. But alcohol isn't the truth serum people act like it is. Sometimes it just makes you act like an idiot, not "act out your true feelings."
I see the thing with Jim going in a positive direction. Older men are a bit more...I don't know, willing to deal with issues, they're not as easily spooked as younger men are, they've gotten over some of that. Not entirely, but more. I mean, he got divorced for goodness' sake, he can deal with a woman in her mid-twenties with trust issues and baggage from a past relationship. Maybe after what he went through, he knows how to treat a woman better because he was treated so badly. I'm guessing, but it could be. I want to steal a quote I read somewhere: "I like older men. I like a man who knows his way around a woman's body and mind and doesn't have the immaturity issues younger men have."
Marten had no problem with dealing with Dora's issues. Even at the end, he wanted to KEEP TRYING TO DEAL WITH THEM. She was spooked, not him.
And Jim being divorced doesn't exactly make me think POSITIVELY of his experience with women. I mean, it doesn't show anything negative to me, at least, not without knowing why they divorced, but its kind of a neutral thing without more information.
As for being friends with exes, I don't get that at all. I don't think anyone should feel obligated to have a friendship with someone who may have ripped their heart out.
Wait where did I say anyone was obligated to? I'm still friends with my exes, but that's because it generally ended on good terms. I don't get how the end of a relationship means that ONE HUNDRED PERCENT OF THE TIME you stop caring about the other person. I mean, there are times when I understand that, but it really depends on why the relationship ENDED. Some people just don't work out, or maybe it was a thing they both knew wouldn't be permanent going into it. It doesn't necessarily mean they think the other person is necessarily a bad person, or even an unfun person to hang out with in a platonic way.
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Everything Emperor Norton just said.....Perfect.
Marten acted like an idiot that time because he was DRUNK, DEPRESSED AND FELT LIKE SHIT. Hmmm, I wonder why that was again...Oh yeah, because his girlfriend broke up with him because of her own issues. Examples leading up to break up - Dora getting aggressive despite being in the wrong (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1797), Marten realising he was sick of having to deal with Dora's issues non-stop (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1798) and Dora admitting that she knows they're fighting over her issues. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1799)
As for staying friends with an ex, why not? People spend significant time to someone for them to care. Its not like when you break up with someone that its, every connection is cut. I mean, a person obviously cared enough for someone, they still do. Unless they're evil and heartless.
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Waffles
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Waffles
Well said good sir.
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If I had waited until all my insecurities were sorted out before going out on a date, I'd still be a bachelor.
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If I had waited until all my insecurities were sorted out before going out on a date, I'd still be a bachelor.
Its not about waiting for ALL of your insecurities to be sorted out. Seriously, the entire relationship with Marten, collapsed based on her insecurities. If it was something she could sort out enough to date again in 2 months... why did they break up at all?
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I'm completely against the idea of Dora dating Jim, not because of whatever emotional insecurities she has but for the simple fact that their relationship is a professional one.
It was ridic unprofessional of him to even ask her out.
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Seriously, the entire relationship with Marten, collapsed based on her insecurities. If it was something she could sort out enough to date again in 2 months... why did they break up at all?
Well, it was even less than two months (maybe just one) between her agreeing to try and do something about it and the breakup. In the light of that, I don't think of the breakup as a very rational decision.
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TL,DR other replies, but here's my take:
Dora will likely tell Jim, "No thanks, I just got out of a relationship and I don't think I'm ready to see anyone else for a while."
This will happen just after Tai entered the shop - without Dora realizing she's there - until after Jim walks out of the shop, sad.
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Dora broke up with Marten because she thought he still had unresolved feelings for Faye.
FTFY. There has been nowhere - other than the drunken little bit that caused the "owl attack" - that he has EVER suggested he had unresolved feelings for Ms. Whitaker.
Yes, Jim doesn't have that baggage, but imagine what happens if his ex suddenly blows into his life and tries to reconcile or something? There goes the therapy bill.
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I'm completely against the idea of Dora dating Jim, not because of whatever emotional insecurities she has but for the simple fact that their relationship is a professional one.
It was ridic unprofessional of him to even ask her out.
Many a successful relationship has come out of business arrangements. I don't see it as unprofessional as much as older man interested in a beautiful, responsible younger woman with common business interests.
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for all we know he just wants to be friends and pick her brain about owning a small business. See how his experience has differed and perhaps learn a new way to become more efficient at something that he had not thought of before.
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I'm completely against the idea of Dora dating Jim, not because of whatever emotional insecurities she has but for the simple fact that their relationship is a professional one.
It was ridic unprofessional of him to even ask her out.
Many a successful relationship has come out of business arrangements. I don't see it as unprofessional as much as older man interested in a beautiful, responsible younger woman with common business interests.
Perhaps, but they just began their business relationship. I don't think it's particularly appropriate to be asking out a new business partner (of sorts) quite THAT soon.
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I'm completely against the idea of Dora dating Jim, not because of whatever emotional insecurities she has but for the simple fact that their relationship is a professional one.
It was ridic unprofessional of him to even ask her out.
Many a successful relationship has come out of business arrangements. I don't see it as unprofessional as much as older man interested in a beautiful, responsible younger woman with common business interests.
Perhaps, but they just began their business relationship. I don't think it's particularly appropriate to be asking out a new business partner (of sorts) quite THAT soon.
Well, think of it this way. It's harder to convert a friendship to a romantic relationship successfully if it's been a relationship for a long time. I imagine the same would apply here. Better to ask now while it's early and establish the boundaries than wait till months or years down the road when Dora may be less willing to upset the apple cart.
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I disagree. A good friend can turn into a romantic relationship quite suddenly, even after a long term friendship. Sometimes it screws everything up, bt not always.
I think Dora will ask something along the lines, "You mean a date?"
And Jim will back down - "No, no, it doesn't have to be, just a chance to get to know each other a little better".
And the boundaries will be set. One really shouldn't mix business and pleasure in this way - if the relationship starts and then goes south, so does the business deal!
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Dora broke up with Marten because she thought he still had unresolved feelings for Faye.
FTFY. There has been nowhere - other than the drunken little bit that caused the "owl attack" - that he has EVER suggested he had unresolved feelings for Ms. Whitaker.
Yes, Jim doesn't have that baggage, but imagine what happens if his ex suddenly blows into his life and tries to reconcile or something? There goes the therapy bill.
I disagree. He does have unresolved feelings. I don't care if he was drunk. He still did it, and he also thought about how nice he was to not be weird about Faye being with someone else. Hence, unresolved issues.
I mean that whole mess is part of why I can't stand Faye.
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Dora has been fortunate too that the friends she hired are honest people. That can blow up too.
I think that right now, I would say no. He seems a bit creepy and she doesn't need a creeper. Plus it would be bad for COD.
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Jim's anger issues (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1927) about his divorce are a bit of a red flag too.
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Um, he's not angry. He's just bitter. And that doesn't mean anything about how he would treat Dora. His ex wife could be a total psycho bitch for all we know.
And I don't think Jim is creepy at all. He seems nice genuine, not playing games. I don't think it's creepy that he asked Dora out or was attracted to her. He's probably in his early forties. Sure, quite a bit older than Dora, but hardly a creep.
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Should Dora go out with Jim?
[allfourbeatles] NO! [/allfourbeatles]
Next question.
I don't think Dora is interested in anything other than Jim's baked goods.
If you look at Dora's body language when she interacts with Jim and compare that to when Tai came into the store after the break up (with butterflies.)
I don't think Jim has much of a chance.
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I think this one's now been answered
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Not the "should she" - only the "will she".
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Yes.
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No way in hell.
Don't shit where you eat, don't dip your pen in company ink, etc., etc.
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I actually think it'd be a good idea for her to date somebody. Even if it's too early and bound to fail in the end. She needs to go on and get over her past relationships and.. well.. you can't get rid of your agoraphobia without confronting the spider. :mrgreen: In this case, I agree with the poster above though. Jim is probably not the best choice.
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Not sure how facing a spider would help with agoraphobia, arachniphobia maybe...
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uh yeah. that phobia.
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Not sure how facing a spider would help with agoraphobia, arachniphobia maybe...
Although, picking a fight with Spider-man would help you to get over both.
I'm glad Dora agreed to go out with Jim. It'll do her some good to date someone that isn't a complete layabout and who demonstrates actual initiative to do something with his life.
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Hmm. What good could come out of this dinner(date)? Neither Dora nor Jim has completely recovered from their past. So it might happen that they realize this during the dinner, and take the realization as part of the closure they may need. Then they agree to keep their relationship as strictly business (for now, at least :evil:), and end the night with a chaste hug. Both go to their respective homes content in the knowledge that they are in the dating pool again.
To get the necessary level of hilarity and awkwardness out of this: the evening begins with several lapses committed by both parties bemoaning their past marriage/relationships, brother issues, et cetera (much like Sven during the pretendate with Hanners). Only after that disastrous start will they see the light.
IOW: I'm optimistically expecting the dinner date to have a therapeutical effect on both of them. But not more.
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Why is everyone using their business relationship as a end all for them dating? They don't directly work together; they just trade products. It's a plus but it's not critical to either business. If anything, one of these companies will learn how to do what the other does and end the trade. It's temporary at best.
Dora's been dating people with no goals in their life, and now an immature, horny little girl considers herself next in line. I say go for it Dora and date Jim. Anything to get you away from these people who just drag you down to their level, and then call you crazy for not being happy with someone who just meanders through life.
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wow I called it. yay.
http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,26845.msg1042749.html#msg1042749 (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,26845.msg1042749.html#msg1042749)
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Now we just have to see how it goes. Knowing Jeph it will likely end in disaster for the sake of comedy relief but here's hoping.
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I worry that Dora may be vulnerable or wants someone new in her life to get over Marten. Rebound always sucks, especially for the person being rebound.
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I had to take a deep breath this morning and remind myself that this is a comic.
That said, IF Dora was a real person and I knew her, I would think a lot less of her for going out with Jim after the way she broke up with Marten, and the reasons she gave.
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She said yes! Yay!
I feel a little bad for Tai...
But...Dora has a date with a sexy older man. :D
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I had to take a deep breath this morning and remind myself that this is a comic.
That said, IF Dora was a real person and I knew her, I would think a lot less of her for going out with Jim after the way she broke up with Marten, and the reasons she gave.
Oh, please.
Besides, I know of people who work together and are in a relationship. It's not ALWAYS a disaster. I actually think it would be really awesome if this date led to something real.
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I also think this answers my question about whether she feels the same about Jim. She is still thinking about him when Tai comes in, and it seems like she's kind of scared, like "What did I do?"
I think it's obvious now that it's not a business dinner. I think she likes him too... : )
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I had to take a deep breath this morning and remind myself that this is a comic.
That said, IF Dora was a real person and I knew her, I would think a lot less of her for going out with Jim after the way she broke up with Marten, and the reasons she gave.
Oh, please.
Besides, I know of people who work together and are in a relationship. It's not ALWAYS a disaster. I actually think it would be really awesome if this date led to something real.
are they both employed by the same company or do they both own separate companies and co-operate?
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They are both owners of separate coffee shops...all they're doing is trading coffee and baked goods. I hardly see how them dating would interfere with that.
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I also think this answers my question about whether she feels the same about Jim. She is still thinking about him when Tai comes in, and it seems like she's kind of scared, like "What did I do?"
I think it's obvious now that it's not a business dinner. I think she likes him too... : )
We don't know. The one who said 'date' was Raven, and she is likely to say that at any given chance. Most likely is that one of the parties thinks it's a business date and one thinks it's a pleasure date, since that is the funniest setup. :mrgreen:
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I also think this answers my question about whether she feels the same about Jim. She is still thinking about him when Tai comes in, and it seems like she's kind of scared, like "What did I do?"
I think it's obvious now that it's not a business dinner. I think she likes him too... : )
We don't know. The one who said 'date' was Raven, and she is likely to say that at any given chance. Most likely is that one of the parties thinks it's a business date and one thinks it's a pleasure date, since that is the funniest setup. :mrgreen:
Jim thinks it's all business, Dora throws herself at him only to get a "Child, please." response.
That would be the funniest thing to happen, plus it would probably help snap Dora into actually doing something to better herself on a personal level once she realized what depths she let herself sink to.
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Good one, I vote for this. :)
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Well, we have been led to believe that TSB is the "Bizarro World" version of COD, so Jim's marriage may have been to a woman who had little ambition, but would jump anything that moved. Amazingly, he has a sister who he refers to as a "slut" - and maybe, just to REALLY twist the screws, turns out to be a protege of one Ms. Veronica Vance.
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I also think this answers my question about whether she feels the same about Jim. She is still thinking about him when Tai comes in, and it seems like she's kind of scared, like "What did I do?"
I think it's obvious now that it's not a business dinner. I think she likes him too... : )
:-o
Mind numbing fear and panic = likes. That's disturbing. She looked like she was afraid he was going to hit her when he asked her out. We agree she looks afraid over this. If you add that to the abuse from previous boyfriends then her accepting is bad. Given the hostility he displayed towards his divorce when he was first introduced two appearances ago it would seem that she is seeking out the same kind of guy who abused her in the past. It doesn't matter if he is that kind of guy or not only that she thinks he is. The only way for her fear to not stem from her issues with relationships (not men) is to wave the magic plot wand. The magic plot wand is worse than Deus ex Machina. I've seen it used prominently in the worst Star Trek videos. It's where in no way could something work at all but it does anyway because that is how it is written.
Like when the crew of Voyager found "cracks" in an event horizon. This story can be written in such a way that Jim and Dora live happily ever after or Tai and Dora live happily ever after or Marten and Dora live happily ever after or they all just end up in one big strange polyamorous relationship. But it shouldn't.
Jim seems like bad Questionable Content fanfiction. A character that comes out of nowhere for a romance with a main character? That kind of plotline belongs in an anime forum. Plus going by this being a Bizzaro CoD think what that really means. We already have seen the Bizarro Dora that Marten flirted with so who would Jim be the Bizarro version of? He is older, more mature, although successful not all that successful, was married and after that relationship ended badly is trying to better himself by dating other people (presumably him asking out Dora). His Bizarro version would have to be young, kind of immature, really successful in a ridiculous manner, hasn't really been in a committed relationship, trying to better himself by NOT dating...
He's Bizarro Sven. That is creepy. I thought it was unhealthy for Marten to try and see Bizarro Dora but it is creepier for Dora to date Bizarro Sven. Given that the character seems like a bad fanfiction character this just makes it all too disturbing. The night should end with Dora who looked terrified when he asked her out saying goodbye, apologizing for just not being interested even though he's a really great guy (probably) and the two continuing their business partnership amicably. This is the ideal outcome. It won't happen. He's going to let his hostility towards his ex leak into the relationship while the issues she has not yet come close to dealing with poison it from her end. No more than two months have passed since she sabotaged her relationship with uncontrolled jealousy. If you want to call it understandable fine but I find it hard to understand an emotion that pops up unexpectedly and then disappears as though nothing happened and isn't brought up until it pops up again to wreak havoc like a hurricane. The point is she is not ready to even go out on a date with someone. two months is not enough therapy time for her to be at a point where the problems that destroyed her last relationship are not affecting her judgement negatively.
And for those who say that Marten hit on Faye he didn't. Yes, he propositioned her but sex was not the point of the statement. It was him openly insulting her because like his previous girlfriend and Dora she had turned him down and she had dated Sven who was a jerk at the time. He was openly insulting women pointing out he was acting like a jerk therefore women (including Faye) should find him attractive. Had it not been for that "owl" to his head he probably would have threatened to beat up her boyfriend and then challenged her to a fight before falling over and knocking himself out. He was drunk and angry at the world. Asking her to have sex was a verbal attack.
And for all of you who say it wasn't Dora's fault YES it was. She admitted it. She admitted that she knew there was nothing going on between him and Faye, the person who introduced her to Marten, and that her problems weren't just getting better. Ignore it and it will go away is an immature attitude and it does not work.
She shouldn't date Jim anymore than this one time because in the story she has agreed and in a realistic story setting it does not work. If she is going to have a relationship with him then for their date he should show up in shiny gold armor on a diamond unicorn, wave a sceptre putting her into a ball gown, lift her up behind him and whisk her off to his palace in the clouds on a double rainbow while Aragorn, Frodo, Harry Potter, Edward, and Zelgadis all wave happily to them in congratulations.
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For me, the concept of "tSB equals Bizarro CoD" quickly withered.
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Besides, I know of people who work together and are in a relationship. It's not ALWAYS a disaster. I actually think it would be really awesome if this date led to something real.
are they both employed by the same company or do they both own separate companies and co-operate?
They are both owners of separate coffee shops...all they're doing is trading coffee and baked goods. I hardly see how them dating would interfere with that.
I think we have a major misunderstanding there - I'm pretty sure LeeC was asking you about the people you said you knew, not Dora and Jim.
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Well, there's always the obvious option as well - this doesn't have to be a romantic thing. Or even a casual fling. She and Jim just got into an apparently successful deal together. His plan might be to discuss business, or simply to celebrate how well it went for them.
Of course I'll grant that it probably is an attempt at romance on Jim's behalf. But then, there's no reason why Dora shouldn't accept anyway. He's apparently successful, and Raven at least thinks he's good-looking, even if he apparently isn't fond of his ex(es). Accepting an offer of dinner doesn't mean she's going to become his new wife, it doesn't even mean she has to sleep with the guy. They can go out, and if it fizzles, they don't have to go out again. At the very worst Dora might have to endure a few awkward moments in exchange for dinner.
If they do sleep together... well, Dora clearly doesn't attach the same significance to sex as Faye does, though it's clearly important to her. Now, if Jim gets Dora drunk and knocks her up, that might be a disaster, but since last time I checked QC wasn't a soap opera I don't see that happening. It might be something of a relapse for her if she ends up sleeping with a guy who's not good for her, like the Alpha-Dicks she used to date, and that would suck... but I think even then her therapist could offer some advice. At least she'd be opening up a little after The Big Breakup.
And hey, let's assume that this date actually leads to some kind of connection and Dora does end up dating Jim for a while. Which means that, well, she's dating someone. And... unless he's abusive, I don't see the downside to this. If she likes him enough to do it, isn't that a good thing?
Basically, this date might make her little circle of friends a little awkward for a little while, but really, at the moment it already is. Where's the harm?
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The harm of a step back... Faye had to force her to call a therapist. She is now at the START of her therapy BEGINNING to deal with the issues that caused her to sabotage a good relationship with someone who, until the company up and left, was somewhat successful. Not sure about the future and not sure about himself and unclear goals does not equal total loser. The harm in a relationship right now is a step back means she's back OUT of therapy, not dealing with her problems and being the same way that she was with Marten. I know everyone wants to point to the passive aggressive "emo" as the reason they broke up but he wasn't. She admitted it was her issues and that her jealousy was unfounded and shouldn't have treated him that way. When they broke up it wasn't even clear if she really wanted to.
And if people are going to argue the "it's only one date" then stop bringing up the point of "so what if they do start dating?" as the harm has been said. From a character standpoint she isn't ready to start even going out on one date with guys regardless of how it ends because she has to focus on herself right now. As a business partner or friend then it is a little early to start asking someone to a private dinner on both fronts. Looking at him as a character I reiterate that this seems more like a bad fan fiction. All that's left is to find out that he is better at everything than every other character including roasting coffee beans which he's just never tried before.
From a plot standpoint this seems artificially added. We know NOTHING of this character. Even the rest of the Secret Bakery crew is too much of a mystery to be a big part of this story right now. Look at what's-his-name now dating Faye. He had a LOT of strip time before really connecting with the group and becoming a real character. I hope this entire dinner occurs off panel while the comic focuses on the party and when asked how it went Dora says he's great but she just isn't ready to see anyone right now and maybe reflect that she shouldn't have gone.
I also still maintain that the total panic she seems to have when asked is more a sign that she is taking on the role of sub in her own mind once again.
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And everybody is still jumping to conclusions, suggesting things without support from the characters themselves and so on. Without even realizing that they're making it all up themselves. Look, we don't know! :police:
What we do know is that Dora ended a relationship where both parties was presumably in love with each other, based on her insecurities - or rather the fights and the trouble that they caused. We also do know, not completely sure but reasonably, that this was less than two months ago.
This leads us to deduct that a romantic relationship is probably not something she is able to pull off right now - not that it would be bad for her if she actually could. But then again, this is where we are trying to figure things out on our own, and we need to be clear on this point - this is no facts, there is wrong or right answer, this is just a bunch of fans that are speculating. Please note that I do love to speculate and argue, the last thing I would want is to kill a discussion. I only want the discussion to be a little more clearly worded and reasonable.
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We also don't know what was talked about in session #2 with her new therapist - if, indeed, she's returned for a 2nd session, even though a little less than two months (six weeks, maybe?) have passed since we heard about session #1 - which was all about Sven.
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She should go out with Jim and with Tai. I mean holy crap, new friends will be good for her... she should go out with anyone she can!
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How caring, and so very nice.
But that passes quickly (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1801). A degree of variability like that is not unhealthy in itself.
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Bad news for Tai. The latest comic seems to suggest that Dora knows how Tai feels about her, and just doesn't feel the same way back. Still, she seems to feel bad about Tai finding out about the date...I hope she can let Tai down easy.
My guess about why Dora doesn't like Tai...Dora generally seems to prefer men for actual relationships, despite being sexually attracted to women too. Also, she is a bit older than Tai, and might prefer someone her age or older.
Tai is also a bit too impulsive. I do think Tai is going to be upset, as we can already see. : (
I hope Tai doesn't take it too hard or do anything nutso.
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Given that we have no evidence of Dora making progress in combating her insecurities towards dating, nor have we seen any evidence of Dora aborting an overreaction... I think Dora seriously dating Jim would be a bad idea. I think that she would once again be eaten alive by her own insecurities and relationship paranoia, and that's assuming that her relationship with Jim would be a completely healthy one. (not that we have substantial reason to think it wouldn't be, but every new relationship is a pandora's box)
With Faye, we saw her making positive changes in the way she interacts with people and in her emotional responses. We knew before she started dating Angus that she was a much more stable person, and one who could handle intimacy again, than she was when she entered the comic.
It's completely possible that Dora has made enormous strides in therapy.... but I doubt it, simply based on Jephs storytelling style. This isn't the sort of detail that Jeph has glossed over in the past, and I hope that he doesn't have all of Dora's therapy/emotional progress happen "offscreen".
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Dora controlled a nascent overreaction when Hannelore asked Sven for a pseudodate. If you meant overreactions to events in her own life, you're right.
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Dora controlled a nascent overreaction when Hannelore asked Sven for a pseudodate. If you meant overreactions to events in her own life, you're right.
I think that case might have been because it was Sven, the one person who, in Dora's mind at least, had it the easiest in life. He could be seen as the person who Dora has always felt powerless against, look at when she said that her "friends" only hung out with her so that they could sneak off and make out with Sven. Even when he was sleeping with Faye, Dora really didn't do anything to him. It was only after he slept with Gina Riversmith that she acted aggressively by slapping him, and that was because he hurt Faye.
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Dora controlled a nascent overreaction when Hannelore asked Sven for a pseudodate. If you meant overreactions to events in her own life, you're right.
hmm, nice catch, I'd forgotten about that one.
@theevildog: I think Is it cold in here meant this strip: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1755
I think the reason Dora controlled that reaction was because the idea of Sven and Hanners going anywhere romantically was a stretch even for Dora's imagination.
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@theevildog: I think Is it cold in here meant this strip: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1755
I think the reason Dora controlled that reaction was because the idea of Sven and Hanners going anywhere romantically was a stretch even for Dora's imagination.
I know what comic Cold meant. My point was that she didn't really do much besides a little arm waving and throwing some dirty glances to Sven, even a cursory threat to her brother. Compare that to any time when its just Sven and Dora and we see that she really can't do that much to him. She only acted that way because she was afraid for Hanners. She might stick up for her friends, but when it comes to her own well being, Dora acts a lot like a deer in the headlights.
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aah, sorry, misread your previous post.
When does Dora act like a deer in the headlights? From what I could see she is pretty consistent about calling Sven out on (what she perceives as) his bullshit, while still maintaining a fair relationship with him, esp. given their history and Dora's anxieties.
What Dora does do *to* Sven is give him a reputation. When he first appeared in the comic most of the cast had a negative opinion of Sven, mostly due to Dora telling them about his playboy ways.
I'm not saying Sven wasn't a playboy, but I think that he was treated poorly by the cast before he had even had a chance to meet them, esp. Faye.
Possibly Dora wanted to keep her social circle and her brother apart?
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would make sense seeing as how girls would only hang out with dora to get to her brother back when she was in high school.
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Possibly Dora wanted to keep her social circle and her brother apart?
That's a reasonable assumption given she perceives Sven as the root of all her problems. There's also her control freak tendencies and she can't control Sven. Thus in her mind it was probably a case of, if Sven comes around, he'll take control of her social circle away from her. Thus resulting in more Sven hate and more Dora insecurities.
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Possibly Dora wanted to keep her social circle and her brother apart?
This makes a LOT of sense. Sven interacting with her friends is at the very root of her insecurities, as far as we know. Yet. Here's hoping we will see some of Dora's therapy sessions!
However, I'm pretty sure this discussion should be in the other thread, "Why does Dora need therapy?", rather than this one.
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I agree with Blyss; Dora kicks Marten in the nads & says her issues are the problem, then she almost immediately starts dating again?
Personally, I saw friction building throughout Marten and Dora's relationship, not only because of Dora's insecurities, but because of Marten's apathy, nonchalance, immaturity, and repressed bitter feelings. There have been many examples throughout the strip, but a notable one that reveals his character is right before the breakup, in 1798 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1798): "Now I gotta do the same old stupid song and dance to smooth things over even though this is HER fault." How caring, and so very nice.
Are you forgetting what Dora did to drive a nice, caring boy to this attitude? Do her high-maintenance needs seem normal to you? I'm sorry, I would have considered leaving her by that point, and I'm quite tolerant (also apathetic, nonchalant, etc.) Why SHOULD Marten have to do that same stupid song and dance for her, over and over, anyway?
edit - corrected attribution - sorry!
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I agree with Blyss; Dora kicks Marten in the nads & says her issues are the problem, then she almost immediately starts dating again?
Personally, I saw friction building throughout Marten and Dora's relationship, not only because of Dora's insecurities, but because of Marten's apathy, nonchalance, immaturity, and repressed bitter feelings. There have been many examples throughout the strip, but a notable one that reveals his character is right before the breakup, in 1798 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1798): "Now I gotta do the same old stupid song and dance to smooth things over even though this is HER fault." How caring, and so very nice.
Are you forgetting what Dora did to drive a nice, caring boy to this attitude? Do her high-maintenance needs seem normal to you? I'm sorry, I would have considered leaving her by that point, and I'm quite tolerant (also apathetic, nonchalant, etc.) Why SHOULD Marten have to do that same stupid song and dance for her, over and over, anyway?
Somehow you deleted out to attribute that quote to me. Which is, something I would definitely not say.
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I agree with Blyss; Dora kicks Marten in the nads & says her issues are the problem, then she almost immediately starts dating again?
I would hardly call 6 - 8 weeks immediately, but I do agree it is too soon. However, I base that on the fact that she hasn't spoken to Marten and sorted out those loose ends yet, not the amount of time.
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No way in hell.
Don't shit where you eat, don't dip your pen in company ink, etc., etc.
Thiiiiis
Mind you, I'd throw the same argument at Tai.
I've come to distrust relationships between friends / coworkers so much over the past year that I think maybe total strangers that you know and trust implicitly is the only way to go.
QUANDARY.
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In the office so can't link to Utube but does anyone know that song Creep by Lonely Island?
Yes Faye just called Jim a creep. I agree with her - he came across creepy in past encounters. What are the chances that they will end up venting at each other over failed relationships on this dinner date? And then Jim giving Marten the evil eye when he is in TSB? I think that would be suitably awkward and juicy. :evil:
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That is a good point. The chance they will vent their frustrations. This can create a false connection between people, a feeling of closeness that does not really exist. If such a thing occurs between two people a real connection usually doesn't form. If neither of them meant to create this sort of connection then it can explode at the end but the best case scenario is they realize they aren't interested and end it. It may be that she had a false connection with Marten as he was a passive and non-threatening yet (in her eyes) handsome and trustworthy. Then again it may have been a false interruption (which I just made up) in a real connection. This is only being mentioned as possibility though, as the worst case scenario I envision of them connecting, a repeat of what happened with Marten because she was ready and fooled herself. Then she's back to before square one. It looks like she was contemplating if she was ready to start dating again in the previous strip with Tai.
I actually have to argue against my own point here, though. We don't know much about Jim and therefore don't know what kind of a person he is. He may be one of those jerks that Dora usually goes for in which case any venting is a trap. I've been in a relationship with someone who did just that. She'd make confessions about bad experiences and past mistakes, badmouth the people who hurt you in the past, and then when she was done using you... People like that don't know they're doing it and are very good at convincing you that it is your fault.
I don't think that she should date Tai as Tai really only seems interested in a physical relationship with Dora. Just look at when she helped them move. Instant lebido mode. She even went so far as to try and get Faye into it. And THAT is your happy thought for the day. :evil:
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That's a good third post. Welcome, new person!
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Known qualities of Jim:
Divorced - Messy - Involving high levels of negotiation, lawyer fired.
Quick Mover - From what we can tell, this is the third time he's talked with Dora and he's suggesting a date.
Unprofessional - While I don't entirely buy into the don't date where you work philosophy, you certainly don't start dating someone you just started a business deal with.
I think it's been discussed that Dora had insecurities regarding Marten's feelings towards Faye, and her insecurities don't really factor anywhere into being able to handle an ex-wife. I think it's a mistake all around, but it's also a meaningful opportunity to fail, and bite Dora in the ass, and have her grow as a person.
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Known qualities of Jim:
Divorced - Messy - Involving high levels of negotiation, lawyer fired.
Quick Mover - From what we can tell, this is the third time he's talked with Dora and he's suggesting a date.
Unprofessional - While I don't entirely buy into the don't date where you work philosophy, you certainly don't start dating someone you just started a business deal with.
I think it's been discussed that Dora had insecurities regarding Marten's feelings towards Faye, and her insecurities don't really factor anywhere into being able to handle an ex-wife. I think it's a mistake all around, but it's also a meaningful opportunity to fail, and bite Dora in the ass, and have her grow as a person.
Two of your three points goes extinct if Jim meant this as a business date, on the other hand we can in that case "Socially clumsy" or perhaps even "Socially unadjusted".
I won't say misadjusted, since I am somewhere in that region myself - and I can assure you all, there was no one that learned me wrong, I just haven't learned yet although I have already lived more than 20 years. One might argue I'm a little slow to pick things like that up :mrgreen:
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Something about the idea of someone seriously thinking asking a woman out after a few conversations with her (one of which was at least long enough to hammer out a formal business contract) is "moving fast" strikes me as hilarious.
If you're both single and you're interested, why not ask her out? What is the worst possible outcome considering that you are already not dating her? You continue not dating? Sheesh, what loss, oh horror!
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What is the worst possible outcome considering that you are already not dating her? You continue not dating? Sheesh, what loss, oh horror!
Depends on the other person. If she rejects you immediately, perhaps with scorn, it would make future business dealings awkward, at best. If thing go well for a bit, then go south, same problem. Possible end of business deal. If there's a misunderstanding over the type of dinner date this is, that could be just laughed off, no harm, no foul.
Of course, if he's a jerk/creep, most of the outcomes would not be good or harmless.
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The part of my post you quoted was addressed to real life and the kind of person that thinks asking a woman out after only talking to her a handful of times prior is "moving too fast", it had nothing to do with Dora's fictional life.
Also, again, a contract has been drawn up with regard to the business deal. If the date goes shitty neither one of them is required to deal directly with the other to uphold the contract (they each have underlings they can delegate deliveries to, remember?).
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Dora doesn't need a lifetime of brooding and therapy to get over her issues. She needs to keep practicing so that she can learn to not suck at relationships. I don't care whether or not this thing with Jim goes anywhere, I'd just like to see something a little more productive than "get therapy, go chaste."
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Dora doesn't need a lifetime of brooding and therapy to get over her issues. She needs to keep practicing so that she can learn to not suck at relationships. I don't care whether or not this thing with Jim goes anywhere, I'd just like to see something a little more productive than "get therapy, go chaste."
There is a problem with this, she has proved that being in a relationship is counterproductive with regards to sorting out her issues...
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Dora doesn't need a lifetime of brooding and therapy to get over her issues. She needs to keep practicing so that she can learn to not suck at relationships. I don't care whether or not this thing with Jim goes anywhere, I'd just like to see something a little more productive than "get therapy, go chaste."
There is a problem with this, she has proved that being in a relationship is counterproductive with regards to sorting out her issues...
She's had a relationship with someone she's not compatible with. She's had past relationships, but they didn't work out. Clearly this is a sign of someone who needs help, and a problem that doesn't afflict 95% of the human race.
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Dora doesn't need a lifetime of brooding and therapy to get over her issues. She needs to keep practicing so that she can learn to not suck at relationships. I don't care whether or not this thing with Jim goes anywhere, I'd just like to see something a little more productive than "get therapy, go chaste."
There is a problem with this, she has proved that being in a relationship is counterproductive with regards to sorting out her issues...
She's had a relationship with someone she's not compatible with. She's had past relationships, but they didn't work out. Clearly this is a sign of someone who needs help, and a problem that doesn't afflict 95% of the human race.
It is a problem that 99% of humans run into, but I think it's only 15% or so who can't deal with it.
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She's had a relationship with someone she's not compatible with. She's had past relationships, but they didn't work out. Clearly this is a sign of someone who needs help, and a problem that doesn't afflict 95% of the human race.
She had massive trust issues and was a massive hypocrite. You seem to be the only one certain of the absolute incompatibility.
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She's had a relationship with someone she's not compatible with. She's had past relationships, but they didn't work out. Clearly this is a sign of someone who needs help, and a problem that doesn't afflict 95% of the human race.
She had massive trust issues and was a massive hypocrite. You seem to be the only one certain of the absolute incompatibility.
Marten has massive self-image issues and is also a hypocrite (much like every character in the comic except for, maybe, Hannelore, who is basically the naive/innocent character for some reason in spite of how she started out in the comic). As for the incompatibility, why do you think they broke up if not because they were incompatible?
You can't throw two people with massive self-image issues like Dora and Marten (and radically different methods of dealing with those issues) into a relationship together and expect things to work out well.
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Marten is significantly less of a hypocrite. He wasn't flirting and then going mental at Dora for (not really) flirting. Examples of the self-image issues please. Other than his admission not being a great songwriter. By any evidence in the comics, the relationship fell apart because of Dora's trust issues. Without reading tons into what we think might have been going on in people's minds and in between comics, Dora herself said it ended because of her issues.
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Examples of the self-image issues please.
The first 500 strips of the comic.
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Anything since then?
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Every time Marten opens his mouth and isn't poking fun at someone else, basically. Do you even read the comic?
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Please clarify: self-image too high, or too low? Do you mean "self-esteem"?
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Too low. Marten doesn't have a very high opinion of himself at all and people that are like that tend to suck terribly in pretty much any relationship they get into.
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Just saying "the first 500 strips" and "every time he opens his mouth" is not useful. An example of what you deem to be specifically expressive of low self-esteem would be more interesting. I pressed Random a few times to see; these are the first four which had Marten in: 278 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=278) 476 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=476), 646 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=646), not much low self-esteem there, I'd say; 1100 (http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1100), OK he's a bit down there, but I'd hardly say it was pathological given the context.
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Just saying "the first 500 strips" and "every time he opens his mouth" is not useful. An example of what you deem to be specifically expressive of low self-esteem would be more interesting. I pressed Random a few times to see; these are the first four which had Marten in: 278 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=278) 476 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=476), 646 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=646), not much low self-esteem there, I'd say; 1100 (http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1100), OK he's a bit down there, but I'd hardly say it was pathological given the context.
Low self esteem traits:
Excessive will to please - Marten is the A-typical nice guy who puts up with things he shouldn't
Floating hostility - Complains about his problems to multiple people, gets very pissed sometimes.
Hypersensitivity to criticism - Marten has never took criticism well.
Chronic indecision - Marten isn't one to take initiative on anything.
Most of the QC cast have low self esteem.
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Just saying "the first 500 strips" and "every time he opens his mouth" is not useful. An example of what you deem to be specifically expressive of low self-esteem would be more interesting. I pressed Random a few times to see; these are the first four which had Marten in: 278 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=278) 476 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=476), 646 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=646), not much low self-esteem there, I'd say; 1100 (http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1100), OK he's a bit down there, but I'd hardly say it was pathological given the context.
Yeah, I hit random four times and come up with 11 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=11), 37 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=37), 520 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=520) and 105 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=105) (all but the last one being relevant to what I was saying, with the last one pointing to some pretty big red flags as to where Dora's issues may be coming from). The point is that anyone that has actually been reading the comic is aware that Marten has pitiful self-esteem/image and would be a terrible friend "in the real world" (but everyone knows someone like him and they always feel sorry for the poor bastard because his life genuinely sucks).
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Marten's been good for the Pugnacious Peach.
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Just saying "the first 500 strips" and "every time he opens his mouth" is not useful. An example of what you deem to be specifically expressive of low self-esteem would be more interesting. I pressed Random a few times to see; these are the first four which had Marten in: 278 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=278) 476 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=476), 646 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=646), not much low self-esteem there, I'd say; 1100 (http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1100), OK he's a bit down there, but I'd hardly say it was pathological given the context.
Yeah, I hit random four times and come up with 11 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=11), 37 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=37), 520 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=520) and 105 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=105) (all but the last one being relevant to what I was saying, with the last one pointing to some pretty big red flags as to where Dora's issues may be coming from). The point is that anyone that has actually been reading the comic is aware that Marten has pitiful self-esteem/image and would be a terrible friend "in the real world" (but everyone knows someone like him and they always feel sorry for the poor bastard because his life genuinely sucks).
Do you think it's possible that you're not the only one that's been "actually reading the comic", and that you just have a different interpretation? I don't think anyone's saying he loves himself, but the crippling self-doubt seems a bit of a stretch. A lot's changed since those first comics, Marten's actually got a lot of friends. The first two are more about dissatisfaction with his life than dissatisfaction with himself, the third seems to be said with a least partial tongue in cheek.
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Is it so much self-esteem as a lifetime of conditioning to lay low, stay off the radar, be nice, don't assert? He grew up among strong, domiant people, sought them out later in life ... One gets used to one's role fairly quickly until one realizes one hasn't gotten very far among the societally accepted road of advancement.
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Is it so much self-esteem as a lifetime of conditioning to lay low, stay off the radar, be nice, don't assert? He grew up among strong, domiant people, sought them out later in life ... One gets used to one's role fairly quickly until one realizes one hasn't gotten very far among the societally accepted road of advancement.
Agreed, looking at how his mother behaved during her visit it seems more that Marten isn't unassertive so much as his mother surgically removed his spine around the time he was 4.
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Agreed, looking at how his mother behaved during her visit it seems more that Marten isn't unassertive so much as his mother surgically removed his spine around the time he was 4.
THIS.
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Is it so much self-esteem as a lifetime of conditioning to lay low, stay off the radar, be nice, don't assert? He grew up among strong, domiant people, sought them out later in life ... One gets used to one's role fairly quickly until one realizes one hasn't gotten very far among the societally accepted road of advancement.
Agreed, looking at how his mother behaved during her visit it seems more that Marten isn't unassertive so much as his mother surgically removed his spine around the time he was 4.
...If this is the case, why isn't he playing hockey?
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Is it so much self-esteem as a lifetime of conditioning to lay low, stay off the radar, be nice, don't assert? He grew up among strong, domiant people, sought them out later in life ... One gets used to one's role fairly quickly until one realizes one hasn't gotten very far among the societally accepted road of advancement.
Agreed, looking at how his mother behaved during her visit it seems more that Marten isn't unassertive so much as his mother surgically removed his spine around the time he was 4.
Offering the reason why Marten has low self-esteem contradicts the notion... how, exactly?
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I read self-esteem as one's regard of one's own value. One need not NECESSARILY have low regard for one's self to be non-assertive. They can go together and frequently do, but it's not mandatory.
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Just so. Specifically, I would say that I am basically non-assertive, and I do not have low self-esteem. Assertiveness has more than one aspect, of course; I avoid the conflict that could arise from asserting my choices against those of others, but I will take steps (within that) to do things I want to do for myself.
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I read self-esteem as one's regard of one's own value. One need not NECESSARILY have low regard for one's self to be non-assertive. They can go together and frequently do, but it's not mandatory.
There is a difference between simply being "non-assertive" and letting everyone you know just run over you all the time on any given thing.
I mean, what was the last time Marten was actually assertive about something that mattered? The time he moved halfway across the country for a girl that wasn't interested in him anymore in a fit of binge drinking fueled stupidity (remember, he was all set to back down again when Dora said "Fuck it, we're done").
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I take it that when you say Marten was ready to back down, you are referring to 1798 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1798) in which he says he'll have to smooth things over. Why do you call that backing down? And what, in fact was his alternative - to have an all-out fight instead? To force Dora to back down (or perhaps break her mentally if she wouldn't)?
As for being non-assertive - sure (comments about doormat or being run over by others are just value-judgement on the same thing, really). The question is why does it matter? As I just said, I've actually managed a pretty good life being no more assertive than Marten is portrayed.
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<MODERATOR>
This thread has been more even-tempered than the one on therapy, but has shown hints of a similar fault at times. Please read what I wrote in the other thread (http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,26849.msg1044036.html#msg1044036).
</MODERATOR>
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I take it that when you say Marten was ready to back down, you are referring to 1798 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1798) in which he says he'll have to smooth things over. Why do you call that backing down? And what, in fact was his alternative - to have an all-out fight instead? To force Dora to back down (or perhaps break her mentally if she wouldn't)?
I was actually talking about the second-to-last panel of 1797 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1797). If Dora hadn't stormed off, Marten would've been begging her for forgiveness for having the gall to be upset with her. Marten, as he's always been written, really didn't have any alternatives that wouldn't have been completely out of character for him so I don't see why you're asking me how he should have acted. 1798 was just Marten venting his frustrations to someone that wouldn't challenge him and make him back down about it (like he did with Steve and others in the early strips when it came to Faye picking on him).
As for being non-assertive - sure (comments about doormat or being run over by others are just value-judgement on the same thing, really). The question is why does it matter? As I just said, I've actually managed a pretty good life being no more assertive than Marten is portrayed.
If someone goes through their life with pretty much every life-altering action determined by somebody else telling them what to do (with the one time they've done something on their own backfiring terribly) like Marten has, I'd posit they aren't anywhere near as happy as they think they are (as long as you'd allow that "content" does not actually equal "happy").
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In both of those cases I'd say you are over-interpreting.
In 1797 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1797) we don't know what Marten was about to say - I could argue that it would precisely not have been "OK, go and look at my porn", because there would have been no need for him to say that (as she was on her way), and if in his mind he'd backed down there would have been no need for him to say what he did in 1798 either.
As for my own life - no I have not been as non-functional as you conjecture. But I would say that we don't have evidence that Marten is as non-functional as that either. Sure, considering major life events, in 280 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=280)ff he is steam-rollered into moving (but this does him no harm), and in 691 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=691) he gets himself a job (he been told about it - but using contacts for information like that is usual enough, and sensible), not a great job, but it enables him to get by comfortably enough. OK, he's probably under-achieving, and aware of it - but that is neither uncommon nor actually harmful in itself.
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In both of those cases I'd say you are over-interpreting.
In 1797 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1797) we don't know what Marten was about to say - I could argue that it would precisely not have been "OK, go and look at my porn", because there would have been no need for him to say that (as she was on her way), and if in his mind he'd backed down there would have been no need for him to say what he did in 1798 either.
What? Where did my post say that Marten would have said it was okay for her to look at his porn? Second to last frame, where Dora leaves the apartment. Or are you thinking she stormed off and looked at Marten's porn anyway for some reason?
As for my own life - no I have not been as non-functional as you conjecture. But I would say that we don't have evidence that Marten is as non-functional as that either.
This entire argument debunked in a single comic (considering it was Dora that initiated the dating and not Marten) (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=610).
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I don't see how that debunks anything. Marten had eyes only for Faye for a very long time. Why would he have suddenly asked Dora out? He may have had no idea she was even into him because of the googly eyes for Faye.
And I'm not so sure he was about to beg for forgiveness in 1797 - I could see him saying, "No wait, I don't want to break up over this," but that doesn't make him spineless, just that he didn't feel it was a big enough issue to break up over.
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If you want to see one other time where Marten tried to be assertive, here. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1835
In it Marten finally stands up to his mother who came to visit uninvited and had been doing little more than belittling him and frustrating him and is then yelled at, publically humiliated, etc. Please note that this is apparently within a couple days of the breakup so Marten probably isn't in the best mental state right now anyway. Honestly looking at this comic it seems like Marten was almost mentally battered or conditioned into being passive. He probably has a fairly strong emotional endurance but yeah, he doesn't impose his will very well. I actually begin to wonder if part of how he and Steve became friends is that Marten is the prefect wingman, quiet, reserved, and passive Steve looks more dynamic by comparison and Marten won't upstage him or complain.
You know, on further reflection most of the cast could arguably use some therapy.
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What? Where did my post say that Marten would have said it was okay for her to look at his porn? Second to last frame, where Dora leaves the apartment. Or are you thinking she stormed off and looked at Marten's porn anyway for some reason?
Sorry - I was distracted by work matters and messed up there...
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Well, judging from the latest comic, it's definitely not a business date. :)
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Well, judging from the latest comic, it's definitely not a business date. :)
Also, Jim seems to be trying to put his best foot square into his own mouth judging by the last panel.
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This entire argument debunked in a single comic (considering it was Dora that initiated the dating and not Marten) (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=610).
But, but..the soup! What about the soup?
Seriously though, on the topic of Marten having low self-image, I think we all tend to put our own personal spin on fictional characters, especially in a setting such as this comic where a) there's entirely too much RL time to over analyze what's going on in comic time, and b) You don't always get to see what the characters are thinking or know their motivations. I think that's one of the reasons this comic is so popular though, since we can each read into it what we want, and therefore we get a sense that we "understand" the characters more so than if Jeph were to spell it all out for us (plus that would make the comic timeline drag on to the point of ridiculousness).
As to his being a pushover with low self esteem, I think there's enough evidence to the contrary (1098 (http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1098), 147 & 148 (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=147), 1203 (http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1203), 1006 (http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1006), etc.) that it would be difficult to put him into such a simple box. My personal spin transfers aspects of myself onto Marten (since he's commonly seen as the "every-man" character I'd say a lot of us do that), but I see him as kind of a contradiction. He knows he's a pretty good guy, comparatively, but he still doesn't think he's good enough in many situations. I think he has a pretty good self-image, though.
Anyway, more on topic, I think this Jim thing is going to flame out pretty quickly, at least if he doesn't do something quick. He isn't off to the best of starts (not the worst either, I suppose).
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"Crippling self-doubt" seems to describe someone who can't look himself in the mirror or get out of bed in the morning. The hyperbole is thick as always..
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"Crippling self-doubt" seems to describe someone who can't look himself in the mirror or get out of bed in the morning. The hyperbole is thick as always..
Only if you're being deliberately obtuse, because if someone is having difficulty functioning due to their self-doubts then it is, in fact, crippling (and Marten does have difficulty with it, he's always second-guessing himself).
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"Crippling self-doubt" seems to describe someone who can't look himself in the mirror or get out of bed in the morning. The hyperbole is thick as always..
Only if you're being deliberately obtuse, because if someone is having difficulty functioning due to their self-doubts then it is, in fact, crippling (and Marten does have difficulty with it, he's always second-guessing himself).
Add to that Dora's doubts about Marten's true feelings and you have a smothering mountain of doubts!
Mmm, if Marten suffers a case of crippling self-doubt, does Dora suffer one of everyone-else-doubt? She's always second-guessing her friends.
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if someone is having difficulty functioning due to their self-doubts then it is, in fact, crippling (and Marten does have difficulty with it, he's always second-guessing himself)
I'm sorry, but I really can't see anywhere that Marten is having difficulty functioning. Feeling sad from time to time is not the same thing.
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if someone is having difficulty functioning due to their self-doubts then it is, in fact, crippling (and Marten does have difficulty with it, he's always second-guessing himself)
I'm sorry, but I really can't see anywhere that Marten is having difficulty functioning. Feeling sad from time to time is not the same thing.
Someone just linked to 1006 (http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1006), if you needed an example.
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I sorry, you call that: "having difficulty functioning"? Are we writing the same language?
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Marten was having some anxiety but he got over it.
New relationships are stressful, a few jitters at significant moments (like the first "I love you") is to be expected. It's how we deal with those jitters that determines whether we can function. Do you tell your SO about your feelings, as Marten is doing here, or do you run screaming, unable to quiet the voices that tell you that doom is around every corner.
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See, apparently 1006 is an example of a difference in perception. To me (and apparently others) it is evidence of a well-adjusted Marten (i.e. he doesn't just say "I love you" after it's said to him, and it doesn't scare him off either. Instead he expresses his doubts and discusses them with his SO like an adult). To you it's an example of "crippling self-doubt" for X (possibly just as valid) reason.
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See, apparently 1006 is an example of a difference in perception. To me (and apparently others) it is evidence of a well-adjusted Marten (i.e. he doesn't just say "I love you" after it's said to him, and it doesn't scare him off either. Instead he expresses his doubts and discusses them with his SO like an adult). To you it's an example of "crippling self-doubt" for X (possibly just as valid) reason.
It has as much to do with what he's saying as the body language in the strip (jittering around, looking everywhere but at Dora/not making eye contact while he's explaining himself, etc.).
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Well that's an iconic example of an awkward situation. I don't think it's a sign of self doubt that Marten feels awkward and unsure in such a situation. The important thing was how he dealt with it, or rather that he actually dealt with it instead of being passive and shying away from the situation.
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Well that's an iconic example of an awkward situation. I don't think it's a sign of self doubt that Marten feels awkward and unsure in such a situation. The important thing was how he dealt with it, or rather that he actually dealt with it instead of being passive and shying away from the situation.
While it's true that it's a good thing he didn't panic and run away, the point still stands that someone with a bit more self confidence could have handled that discussion much better (not looking like they were planning an escape route because they were afraid the person they were talking to might react violently, as was common at that point of the comic).
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I don't see how he could have handled it better. He did a great job communicating. If you mean he could have handled it differently, sure, he could've just been (falsely) confident about it.
But is that really "better"? Not for the relationship, not in the long run. People who know you can tell when you're putting on a "brave face", and it probably would've made Dora's insecurities that much worse, prompting worse reactions earlier. Better he be honest, and they work together towards happiness, than he be falsely confident "for her sake", and case a bumpier ride and an earlier crash and burn.
I know, I know, some will say it wold have been better to get it all over with earlier, but then he would just have been another in a long line of failures instead of the "one good thing" that got trashed.
I'm in wait-and-see mode about Jim. Was that last complememt an over-the-top joke, or was he taking Dora seriously? Don't know his personality well enough yet...
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As someone who relates to Dora on a very personal level, I think going on a date with Jim could be healthy for her. For someone like Dora, dating while in therapy is one of the best ways to really work through issues -- not only are you talking about them, but you are seeing and working through their manifestations on a weekly basis.
Also, we have no idea what this date really is. It could be something as simple as dinner, and Dora really doesn't seem all that interested. Maybe this is a way for her to see she can be happy on her own & realize she doesn't need a relationship.
Furthermore, I feel like Marten & Dora's relationship troubles are being blamed entirely on Dora. True, she did have a lot to do with it but at the same time when you have a problem you are supposed to speak up and address it head on -- not complain to your friends like Marten did, whereas when Dora felt insecure about something she spoke up. I think Marten could also benefit from therapy, or at least asserting himself more instead of letting people take advantage of him. I think both Marten and Dora are pretty bad at relationships!
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I don't see how he could have handled it better. He did a great job communicating. If you mean he could have handled it differently, sure, he could've just been (falsely) confident about it.
But is that really "better"? Not for the relationship, not in the long run. People who know you can tell when you're putting on a "brave face", and it probably would've made Dora's insecurities that much worse, prompting worse reactions earlier. Better he be honest, and they work together towards happiness, than he be falsely confident "for her sake", and case a bumpier ride and an earlier crash and burn.
I was saying that if he said the exact same words, but was making eye contact with her and not being a jittery mess looking like he was about to bolt if she didn't react well to what he was saying, it would have been a better way of handling it and more indicative of someone with a bit more self-esteem than Marten has.
I know, I know, some will say it wold have been better to get it all over with earlier, but then he would just have been another in a long line of failures instead of the "one good thing" that got trashed.
I'm in wait-and-see mode about Jim. Was that last complememt an over-the-top joke, or was he taking Dora seriously? Don't know his personality well enough yet...
That was definitely Jim joking (and as I pointed out in the WCDT, it's the exact type of joke Marten would have made, so people calling Jim a creep are applying double-standards).
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when you have a problem you are supposed to speak up and address it head on -- not complain to your friends like Marten did,
Marten spoke up several times, and each time Dora upped the ante which led him to complain to his friends as well. Hardly surprising, really.
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when you have a problem you are supposed to speak up and address it head on -- not complain to your friends like Marten did,
Marten spoke up several times, and each time Dora upped the ante which led him to complain to his friends as well. Hardly surprising, really.
Yes, but if Marten had such a terrible time with it, shouldn't he have been the one to end it? At what point does Marten step up and say, enough is enough? If Marten was tired of doing the same song-and-dance routine, then he shouldn't have done it. Instead he goes along with whatever is happening. What does he really want? The point I am trying to make is that there were definite flaws on both sides. Neither one of them conducted themselves as mature adults, thus why the relationship was doomed to fail.
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If Marten was tired of doing the same song-and-dance routine, then he shouldn't have done it.
If only life were so simple!
One can so easily be tired of some aspects of a relationship and yet want to preserve it for other reasons; one can want to sort something out, but still be tired of doing it. Perhaps you haven't been there yet; I have.
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He's Bizarro Sven. That is creepy. I thought it was unhealthy for Marten to try and see Bizarro Dora but it is creepier for Dora to date Bizarro Sven. Given that the character seems like a bad fanfiction character this just makes it all too disturbing. The night should end with Dora who looked terrified when he asked her out saying goodbye, apologizing for just not being interested even though he's a really great guy (probably) and the two continuing their business partnership amicably. This is the ideal outcome. It won't happen. He's going to let his hostility towards his ex leak into the relationship while the issues she has not yet come close to dealing with poison it from her end. No more than two months have passed since she sabotaged her relationship with uncontrolled jealousy. If you want to call it understandable fine but I find it hard to understand an emotion that pops up unexpectedly and then disappears as though nothing happened and isn't brought up until it pops up again to wreak havoc like a hurricane. The point is she is not ready to even go out on a date with someone. two months is not enough therapy time for her to be at a point where the problems that destroyed her last relationship are not affecting her judgement negatively.
And for all of you who say it wasn't Dora's fault YES it was. She admitted it. She admitted that she knew there was nothing going on between him and Faye, the person who introduced her to Marten, and that her problems weren't just getting better. Ignore it and it will go away is an immature attitude and it does not work.
Thinking of Jim as Bizzaro Sven is just....eeeugh. I mean....perhaps? But it disturbs me. I don't think they ALL have to have bizarro world counterparts- it just kind of works for Marten to be able to make connections to the few main girls because he needs a replacement for COD (be it temporary or not).
As for his intro being likened to bad fanfic....I personally don't think so. Marten needed another coffee shop (it's a college town so it is chock full of them...as we saw (hah. hello unintentional bad coffee pun.)). There's a 50/50 chance that the owner of said coffee shop is a male. I would agree if he was obviously perfect for Dora, but he's flawed like anyone else. BUT- I don't feel that his "hostility" is as serious as some people might think. He's recently divorced and it seems as though his ex took him for quite a bit. I imagine him going through the typical stages of grieving- he has probably worked his way through certain ones and right now it just so happens that he's dealing with resentment (not to mention that as a small business owner, she probably left him hurting financially).
Was Dora's breakup with Marten her fault? Absolutely. But outside factors made her already delicate state of mind turn completely irrational. Dora isn't completely batty but she is on the spectrum of mental illness. This sentence particularly struck me- I find it hard to understand an emotion that pops up unexpectedly and then disappears as though nothing happened and isn't brought up until it pops up again to wreak havoc like a hurricane
Well, my friend....you are lucky. Us "crazies" as pretty darn good at pushing those feelings to the bottom of the pile, back of the mind (mine like to stay in the pit of my stomach with occasional trips upstairs). But wherever one decides to keep them- that's where they stay hidden from the outside world until some random event triggers our irrationality and we just pop and REALLY look nuts.
The harm in a relationship right now is a step back means she's back OUT of therapy, not dealing with her problems and being the same way that she was with Marten.
I don't think it's harmful for Dora to go on a date. UNLESS she jumps into a relationship and throws away therapy. Just because you're in a committed relationship, doesn't mean you have to stop going to a psychologist (or LCSW or whatever the fancy title of her lady is). Two months of therapy won't magically make her issues disappear but I'm sure that her therapist is helping her scrape the surface a bit. I think this could be good for her if she was open with Jim about taking things slowly and carefully. Not that she should verbal vomit on him....but just give him the heads up that she's a little apprehensive (if a relationship happens). I think if anything, Jim's attitude towards his ex and their divorce might actually help Dora get past some of her jealousy. She'll find comfort in his complete disdain for her. While it's debated whether or not there were feelings between Faye and Marten, Dora knows she was his second choice and they both interacted with Faye practically every day. It's a wonder how she kept the crazy at bay for so long!
PS- to those that ask why Marten should have kept up the song and dance for Dora- they were in a relationship. By that logic- if he was so frustrated with her ways then he could have taken it upon himself to leave. Keep in mind that in her head, Dora may have considered this doing Marten a favor. Maybe it is a kick in the nuts to Marten, but the circumstances that surrounded them were just making their relationship a ticking time bomb.
everything you said
i concur!
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by the way, hi i'm new. same old schpeel- long time lurker/obsess-er
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People in this thread are reminding me of someone. Someone whose strategy was to find Marten's flaws because that would somehow mean Dora was doing okay. Oh wait, that was Dora.
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If Marten was tired of doing the same song-and-dance routine, then he shouldn't have done it.
If only life were so simple!
One can so easily be tired of some aspects of a relationship and yet want to preserve it for other reasons; one can want to sort something out, but still be tired of doing it. Perhaps you haven't been there yet; I have.
Yes, I have been there. And in those cases, I didn't do the song and dance, I expressed how frustrating it was to relive the same fight again and again and how pointless and counterproductive it was. Sometimes I waited it out, sometimes I left.
And -- to NotAwesomeAnymore -- finding Marten's flaws doesn't mean Dora is doing okay, because she's not. If she is continuously getting herself into bad relationships and is freaked out by not being abused, that is a huge red flag. However, just because Dora is a little messed up in the head doesn't mean that Marten is perfect, or anywhere close to it. He's got issues he should address as well.
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I didn't do the song and dance, I expressed how frustrating it was to relive the same fight again and again and how pointless and counterproductive it was.
But that is the song and dance - like here (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1797).
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I gues the opinion that Marten isn't perfect is valid... but hsi imperfections wasn't what broke up the relationship. If they broke up because she didn't like his personality, because they didn't click, she wasn't attracted to him, etc. But Dora broke up with Marten because she couldn't get past her own issue, and after the fact, everything we've seen is Dora not really reacting. She's just going along with business as usual, while Marten is actually resolving his emotions.
From the very flat break up to no reaction, it's not a person handling well.
Unless she honestly didn't feel anything for Marten, in which case there's no problem with moving on, and her getting on with her life post break-up is fine. I think if that's the case... I like her a bit less... I'm still half expecting that moment when her emotonal wall breaks and the gushy stuff comes out. So in my opinion, she's heartless or bottling her emotions <.<
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I gues the opinion that Marten isn't perfect is valid... but hsi imperfections wasn't what broke up the relationship. If they broke up because she didn't like his personality, because they didn't click, she wasn't attracted to him, etc. But Dora broke up with Marten because she couldn't get past her own issue, and after the fact, everything we've seen is Dora not really reacting. She's just going along with business as usual, while Marten is actually resolving his emotions.
From the very flat break up to no reaction, it's not a person handling well.
Unless she honestly didn't feel anything for Marten, in which case there's no problem with moving on, and her getting on with her life post break-up is fine. I think if that's the case... I like her a bit less... I'm still half expecting that moment when her emotonal wall breaks and the gushy stuff comes out. So in my opinion, she's heartless or bottling her emotions <.<
If a dude does what Dora is doing, he's a player, etc.; but since it's a woman doing it she's a whore or she's a heartless bitch. :mrgreen:
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Also, you're totes cherry-picking. There was a huge pile of tissues when she broke up with Marten, if I'm remembering correctly. She'd certainly been crying. When his mother came to see her, she was remorseful and expecting punishment. Nearly cried then too. Hell, she broke down with Hanners when a guy ordered a latte. Any more than that and she would be whiney and annoying. You wouldn't want to be that person with Faye around...
I'm personally in the "BUT WE DON'T KNOW ANYTHING" camp on this issue. I think a possible way this arc could go is we get to see a therapy session where she describes how the date went and that horrible moment when she bumped into Marten!
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everything we've seen is Dora not really reacting. She's just going along with business as usual, while Marten is actually resolving his emotions.
From the very flat break up to no reaction, it's not a person handling well.
Dora doesn't have the leisure of wallowing in grief like Marten (kind of) does. She is running her own business and has to find a place to live.
http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1848
And I think, by stating she can't feel sorry for herself all the time, she's taking a more mature approach to this breakup. Is she sad? Yes, but she knows getting hung up on the breakup isn't going to do her any good.
She's previously been dealing with Sven, who as we've determined is a major source of her issues, and who knows if her saved drafts are about Marten or not? My guess is yes, but there's no real proof for that.
After the breakup we didn't see as much as Dora for a while, so it's hard to say how she was dealing with it. I'd say right now, she and Marten seem to be in the same stage of grief.
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If a dude does what Dora is doing, he's a player, etc.;
Yea, and not everyone admires that either, of course.
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Okay, I do have to admit, Jim is growing on me, at the very least as an entertaining character. Considering the general tone of the comic, his comments that could be creepy are starting to come off as witty and hilarious. I think I did the same thing with Hannelore at first. I couldn't decide if she was creepy or funny, but now she's everyone's favorite (I know, not everyone's favorite, but you know, hyperbole is contagious on here I guess).
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Hmmm...you know, Jim likes his girls a little bit younger.
I just wanna use your love tonight...
:-D
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It does not help that Jeph keeps using the word "creepy" when talking about him in newsposts.
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Psht, what does Jeph know? Jim's awesome.
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Psht, what does Jeph know? Jim's awesome.
Methinks Jeph knows more than we mere mortals shall ever hope to imagine....Right, no more reading Macbeth before I got to sleep. :-P
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I just wanna use your love tonight...
This made me almost spit out my drink laughing (or rather, it would have, had I been drinking something when I read it).
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I just wanna use your love tonight...
This made me almost spit out my drink laughing (or rather, it would have, had I been drinking something when I read it).
and now I have it stuck in my head!
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How is Jim a creeper? A creeper is, by definition, someone who stares too long, stalks you, or a combination of the two. While dating young might be creepy, it does not make Jim a creeper.
How old is Dora again? If she's 27, this relationship is perfectly fine under the (age/2 + 7) rule. If not, well, Jim is at least honest about his personality and what he likes. He's not holding her hostage.
Jeph doesn't like Jim so naturally this relationship will fail. I'd argue that Jim is no worse than Angus when we met him though, since Angus actually was a creeper.
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I think Jeph is a little too hard on his characters sometimes.
Like...calling Tai creepy for asking Marten's mom to be her mom. I thought that was adorable, not at all creepy.
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Dora was 26 at the start of the comic. She's a year younger than Sven, who has told the Pugnacious Peach that he's now 28.
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I just wanna use your love tonight...
This made me almost spit out my drink laughing (or rather, it would have, had I been drinking something when I read it).
and now I have it stuck in my head!
The problem is that the actual lyric is "You know I like my girls a little bit older."
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The problem is that the actual lyric is "You know I like my girls a little bit older."
Yes, I know. I was just playing around. :)
Whoa, I never even noticed that. Is that really Jim? Maybe it's just a guy who looked like Jim. And that comic you linked to doesn't have Jim in it...
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Look at him! His face is barely visible, right underneath Steve's chin in the first panel.[/size]
Are you serious? LOL.
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OK, Tender, you made (some of) us look.
Slow clap for the 1030 link. :lol: Eternal curses for the ... Other ... Link. :-P
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I looked. derp.
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Jim is definitely creepy enough to be a small fraction as creepy as Tai.
Not according to Faye (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=854).
Faye's attraction to creepers doesn't make him not a creeper.
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Well, here's hoping Jim has plenty of Mace in case things get ugly. :laugh:
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Ugh, what a bitch Faye is.
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Ugh, what a bitch Faye is.
She's a bitch because she's concerned about her friend going out with a guy they both barely know? Or was that just a random comment thrown out there?
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Well, other than telling Sven to fuck off for no reason, she's a bitch because she's generally an ill tempered, cruel, thoughtless shrew.
I don't care how many people say "she's changed." I hate her and always will, because she can't undo all the terrible things she did.
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OK fan, take a few deep breaths...
Fae has done a lot of things, but few (if any) could be described as terrible. Ill tempered at times (aren't we all?), but I'd scacely call her cruel or thoughtless (at least, not intentionally so).
I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I can imagine the occasional pounding and nipple tweak she gave Marten in the early days are part of it. Much like the primary school mating dances that take place on any playground. Faye was stuck in a very bad place and working through it as best she cold (which was arguably not very well). In the 500-510 strips we found out why, and why she was (again, uniintentionally) stringing Marten along. She was attracted to him, would've wanted it to go further, but couldn't. And she (eventually) let him know what was going on. Then got help. And is now getting better. In every sense of the word. Yes, she knocked him down when he made that drunken pass, but that was necessary (self defense, look at her stance), and for how drunk he was, all she probably did was push him over.
As for her yelling at Sven in 854, that was prompted by other occurences, not by Sven, and while she clearly hadn't thought it out from his point of view, she was a bit stressed at the time!
As Jeph has said, and Faye just s easily easily could, "Clearly I have made some bad decisions". As someone else said, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
I can empathize with Faye. Hell, with most of the cast. I'm still not sure if it's a gift or a curse!
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I can empathize with Faye. Hell, with most of the cast. I'm still not sure if it's a gift or a curse!
Well if you can empathize with Pintsize I strongly suggest you seek professional help. And possibly get fitted for a straitjacket...
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I said, "most".
Although I have been a teenage boy.
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OK fan, take a few deep breaths...
Fae has done a lot of things, but few (if any) could be described as terrible. Ill tempered at times (aren't we all?), but I'd scacely call her cruel or thoughtless (at least, not intentionally so).
I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I can imagine the occasional pounding and nipple tweak she gave Marten in the early days are part of it. Much like the primary school mating dances that take place on any playground. Faye was stuck in a very bad place and working through it as best she cold (which was arguably not very well). In the 500-510 strips we found out why, and why she was (again, uniintentionally) stringing Marten along. She was attracted to him, would've wanted it to go further, but couldn't. And she (eventually) let him know what was going on. Then got help. And is now getting better. In every sense of the word. Yes, she knocked him down when he made that drunken pass, but that was necessary (self defense, look at her stance), and for how drunk he was, all she probably did was push him over.
As for her yelling at Sven in 854, that was prompted by other occurences, not by Sven, and while she clearly hadn't thought it out from his point of view, she was a bit stressed at the time!
As Jeph has said, and Faye just s easily easily could, "Clearly I have made some bad decisions". As someone else said, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
I can empathize with Faye. Hell, with most of the cast. I'm still not sure if it's a gift or a curse!
Yeah, I know people will always try to talk me out of hating Faye, but it's not gonna happen.
How she treated Marten is a big part of it. She did not unintentionally lead him along. I don't care that she "couldn't." She knew how he felt and she messed with him for a very long time and acted like a total bitch. She was mean to Penelope, Hanners, Dora, Raven, and other people.
And if she was so unable to have a relationship, why was she somehow able to fuck her friend's brother? How convenient. Screwing with Dora and screwing over Marten at the same time. Clever.
And though it's probably not fair of me, yes, loving Marigold as I do, it's hard not to add that to the list of Faye's bullshit deeds. I get that Marigold was never gonna be with Angus, but leave it to Faye to rub some nice salt in Mari's wounds. Marigold is a far better woman than I. I would not even talk to Faye.
In other words, if I met someone like Faye in real life, it would get ugly fast. She'd probably pick on me for being shy/weird, and act like a total bitch.
So yeah, I hate her.
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I have to agree, Faye is a pretty horrible person. She's rude to just about everyone she meets, uses way too much physical violence, and attributes all her indecisions to events from her past, not caring who gets screwed over because of it. The physical violence attribute is never cool, but everyone is just "yuk yuk, that's our Faye" when she gets violent.
She has gotten better, but not really. It's just her personality. Shell do what she wants and threaten death to anyone who disagrees.
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Why does the rest of the cast like her?
Is it your point that redeeming qualities don't make bad qualities disappear and that a person should still be held accountable for them?
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It's funny how it never seems to occur to any of the rest of the cast that they could just, you know, not talk to her or hang out with her. They have no reason to put up with her shit, no matter what she's been through. I think her using her past as an excuse to treat people like that is pathetic.
Why does the rest of the cast like her?
No idea. It could be because some of them are attracted to her, the rest of them...low self esteem and other issues.
I also don't forgive her for calling Hanners "crazy lady" and asking her where to find a therapist. What a bitch.
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But we also see moments when the rest of the cast throw their own insults at Faye. They rarely put up with her shit for long and will call her out on it.
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She did not unintentionally lead him along.
I don't think it was intentional. She was clearly attracted to him,and fo all we know this was her first attempt to get close to someone since ditching her "problems" and moving north. I think what we saw was someone starting a mating dance, and suddenly finding herself unable to go through with it - and also suddenly realizing why.
And if she was so unable to have a relationship, why was she somehow able to fuck her friend's brother? How convenient. Screwing with Dora and screwing over Marten at the same time. Clever.
No, not clever, but typical. She started therapy and suddenly swung to the other end of the pendulum, diving into a purely physical relationship. It didn't work either.
...I get that Marigold was never gonna be with Angus, but leave it to Faye to rub some nice salt in Mari's wounds. Marigold is a far better woman than I. I would not even talk to Faye.
Maybe I missed that - are you talking about the party, and Faye's "Oh shit, she knows!" moment? Because before that, she was trying to protect Marigold's feelings.
In other words, if I met someone like Faye in real life, it would get ugly fast. She'd probably pick on me for being shy/weird, and act like a total bitch.
So yeah, I hate her.
I can see that. I know people like both Mari and Faye. Neither is better than the other, but it's rare that they can get along.
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I actually wanted to jump through the screen and choke Faye when she snarked about the "easily manipulated, passive" (or something thereabouts) Penelope she'd come to know.
Yeah, I hate Faye. I can see I'm not alone in that either, though I don't think anyone here hates her quite as much as I do. I'm proud of it too. I guess Jeph Jacques would be pleased that his character could spur such emotions, but truthfully, I don't know how fictional Faye really is. His rendering of her seems to recall a person he really knew.
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I guess I'm protective of my fellow shy/awkward ladies, and seeing a bitch like Faye picking on them gets me like nothing else.
Protect Marigold's feelings? *laughs uncontrollably*
Um, yeah, Marigold is much better than Faye. And generally speaking, cool, interesting people like Marigold ARE much better than manipulative, cowardly, evil bitches like Faye.
Not to be sexist, but as a woman, I think I have a better understanding of how truly shitty it feels to be on the receiving end of someone like Faye's nastiness. And that's why I hate the bitch so much.
<moderator>Immoderate language removed</moderator>
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Yeah, I hate Faye. [...] I guess Jeph Jacques would be pleased that his character could spur such emotions [...]
I think I have a better understanding of how truly shitty it feels to be on the receiving end of someone like Faye's nastiness. And that's why I hate the bitch so much.
But consider Jeph's view quoted at the end of the "Conduct" sticky thread at the top of this forum. It goes like this (my emphasis):
For what it's worth, I don't care if people overanalyze things. I mean, I think it's stupid, and they're wrong 99% of the time, but that's kind of what forums are FOR. It's the stupid arguing, the creepy character-fetishization, and the "I hate character X no matter what and will drag this into every single discussion" idiocy that I have a problem with.
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Protect Marigold's feelings? *laughs uncontrollably*
OK, maybe I went a bit far. But they tried (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1686)...
Mainly, Faye ran scared as soon as she found out Mari had feelings for Angus. After that, they literally had no interaction at all. Others did try to spare her feelings, though, before Tai unknowingly blurted it out. And as is frequently the case, it only made things worse.
pwhodges is right, I'm not gonna talk you out of your dislike for Faye. I suppose I'm just trying to get you to realize that no one, not even someone who's coping mechanisms are as rough hewn as Faye's, is a totally despicable person.
[waiting for Godwin]
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Maybe it's because I relate to Faye a lot but I both empathise and sympathise with her. I've had my share of issues and accidentally screwed over some friends (not as extreme as Faye/Marten drama but still, was a bit of a jerk) and worked through my issues with a mix of their support and therapy.
The only time I can think of her being intentionally cruel, which even then sounds too strong, was to Wil when he was trying to ask out Penelope (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1186). She did feel bad about it once she found out he was friends with Sven (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1190) even though nothing bad happened between Wil and Penelope because of it.
We saw how Faye reacted to sleeping with Sven. It was an impulse decision that at first she instantly regretted, as far to get an appointment with her therapist as soon as she could (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1089). Sven is the one who wanted to continue having fun when she initially wanted to keep it a one time thing (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1114).She continued the sexbuddy relationship (by accident, sort of (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1198)) after telling Dora and Marten what happened and apologizing for it, after Dora admitted to overreacting. (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1112)
In summary, I guess I'm just saying I don't think it's really fair to say hooking up with Sven was to intentionally screw over Marten and Dora since it's pretty much said in the comic that she didn't do it for that reason.
As Marten says: "She's not evil, she's just kind of a bitch sometimes (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1110)".
*Edit: Pointing out I'm not trying to change anyone's feelings. I just saw the Sven/Faye hookup differently and wanted to say.
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cool, interesting people like Marigold
Yeah, I was kind of with you on the "Faye is kind of a bitch" thing, but come on. Marigold a cool, interesting person? Really?
She's a closet dwelling, Yaoi/Hentai collecting MMO nerd. That's pretty much the exact opposite of cool and interesting.
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...they literally had no interaction at all.
I suddenly realized (whilst walking my dogs) that there was the whole bibliokleptic incident (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1654) between Faye finding out Mari had Angus-cravings and the party. And, while Faye did make fun of Mari's predicament, there was no direct berating. She also tried to warn her away from Sven (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1656) while Dora worked the other angle, and even shielded her (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1657).
Not evil. Not entirely nice either, but not a total bitch.
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Tiogyr, I'm pretty sure you're in the presence of a large number of either current or former closet dwelling anime/manga watching/collecting, MMO nerds, as well as a large number of people whose best friends are said people, even if they are not. We understand that a shy people are interesting, and usually have a lot more depth than they tend to show at first, so to call them uncool or uninteresting is really showing that either you've never really gotten to know some of those types of people, or you managed to hit the few that really are just weird and sometimes kind of gross (because those people are out there too, perpetuating the stereotype), but that's only a tiny fraction. The overwhelming majority are awesome people who just need to come out of their shell a little, and Marigold seems to be one of those types of people.
Of course, this is the internet, you're welcome to disagree with me if you like (hmm, that sounds like I'm implying that in RL you aren't welcome to disagree with me..), but that's how I see it, and I'd be surprised if I'm alone.
As far as the Faye-haters, I know it's pointless to argue against someone who has declared multiple times nothing will change their mind, but don't forget how Faye has been there for her friends. We've all known that abrasive person that we put up with because we know that underneath it he/she cares sincerely, and is fiercely loyal. If you haven't known that person, you probably will before you die.
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cool, interesting people like Marigold
Yeah, I was kind of with you on the "Faye is kind of a bitch" thing, but come on. Marigold a cool, interesting person? Really?
She's a closet dwelling, Yaoi/Hentai collecting MMO nerd. That's pretty much the exact opposite of cool and interesting.
That's your opinion.I actually like nerds. And yaoi... : ) So she's pretty awesome to me. Don't forget Harry Potter. :wink:
I actually don't bring my hatred of Faye into every discussion, but yes, I will mention it. If people have a problem with that, oh well.
Carl-E, I understand what you're trying to do, but I've read through the entire comic. My opinion stands. Nothing Faye could do at this point would make me even feel neutral toward her.
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Furthermore, I feel like Marten & Dora's relationship troubles are being blamed entirely on Dora.
Nah, both Marten and Dora are portrayed as incredibly immature people, neither of which should attempt a relationship at all until they get their heads on straight.
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What is the significance of a relationship really? I feel like some people see it as a point of stagnation in an person's emotional growth. I think relationships teach you more about yourself than the other person. Obviously sometimes it gets terrible, with cases of abuse, but relationships are so common that they can't always be these critically unstable masses resulting in deadly explosions. Even 13-year-olds manage to have them.
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I think relationships teach you more about yourself than the other person.
yes!!
Not to mention, all of the "growth" that happens when one is single doesn't necessarily get carried over once a relationship begins. Sometimes the excitement of a new relationship makes us temporarily blinded to everything except "woohoo!". Another upside to therapy while in a relationship? Putting the theories into practice.
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Hmm - I like Marigold as much as anyone (bring her back, Jeph! We miss Marigold!)... but anyone who thinks she's "cool" is using the word to mean something completely different from what I think it means.
Hmm. Okay. Thanks for sharing that with us.
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I'm still working on de-intensifying my negative feelings toward some people in real life and am amazed at the froth some folks can work themselves into over a fictional character. I'd say it's depressing, but I don't want to give you that much credit.
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Carl-E, I understand what you're trying to do
Then my work here is done!
:police:
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...but I still disagree with you. I understand that you're trying to lessen my feelings of disdain for Faye in some way, and it's not going to happen.
I see absolutely nothing good in her, at all. As far as I'm concerned she's a completely useless character.
Yeah, I'm getting mad over a fictional character, but I wouldn't get this mad if bitches like her didn't actually exist in real life. They do, and they make the world shittier for being in it.
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Hmm - I like Marigold as much as anyone (bring her back, Jeph! We miss Marigold!)... but anyone who thinks she's "cool" is using the word to mean something completely different from what I think it means.
.
I'd rather be friends with a somewhat weird, shy person than some douche or bully, which is what makes Marigold alright. She's not popularity "cool", but she's a good person "cool". As for Faye, she does care about her firends, but then some days she just...doesn't. Some days are all about Faye and her having fun with someone at their expense or being angry. They need to sit her down and tell her to chill the fuck out and stop threatening to attack everyone or messing with people for no reason. That shtick has gotten old, I know I wouldn't put up with it.
I'm still working on de-intensifying my negative feelings toward some people in real life and am amazed at the froth some folks can work themselves into over a fictional character. I'd say it's depressing, but I don't want to give you that much credit.
I'm not sure what's more depressing, that you're so robotic that you can't get emotionally invested in a character when you read a book or watch a movie, or that you insult people for getting emotionally invested in a fictional character. You can have your opinions but don't jump into an forum where everyone discusses characters and declare everyone lame for doing so. Note that a lot of characters remind people of real-life people, hence enhanced emotions of anger, sadness, or happiness.
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Faye didn't just call Hannelore "crazy lady", she said "fellow crazy lady". Isn't that different? Would a total bitch have admitted to needing a therapist?
(moderator)
This thread is moving in the wrong direction. Don't get personal.
(/moderator)
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Faye didn't just call Hannelore "crazy lady", she said "fellow crazy lady". Isn't that different? Would a total bitch have admitted to needing a therapist?
(moderator)
This thread is moving in the wrong direction. Don't get personal.
(/moderator)
No, it's not different, and in some cases, yes.
I am pretty sure I have not personally attacked anyone, but if I do, I'd appreciate knowing.
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Faye didn't just call Hannelore "crazy lady", she said "fellow crazy lady". Isn't that different? Would a total bitch have admitted to needing a therapist?
It's self depreciating but it's still an insult. I personally wouldn't want someone calling me crazy just because they call themselves crazy. Fayes not a total bitch, just mean sometimes. It's likely more related to immaturity than anything.
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Apparently Faye has put her "spell" on a lot of people here, since so many jump to defend her.
I am not trying to attack anyone personally but I can't help noticing the people who excuse Faye's actions are male (and therefore not victims in that way of the real life Fayes) and older (forgotten what it feels like).
I am actually angrier at her for how she treats other women than her actions toward Marten, despicable though those may have been.
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No, Faye's not a lovable puppy but she is like a panda bear -- very cute and endearing but with RAZOR SHARP CLAWS that she uses whenever she feels the need.
Faye exhibits a lot of traits of traumatic event survivors. I think she's gotten better. She's in a lot of internal pain that is hard to process, even on a subconscious level. I think when she lashes out, she is feeling more pain that she can handle at that moment. Plus, she's naturally sassy sooo.
I agree to an extent. Faye's abrasive nature can be a bit grating at times, but I doubt anyone of the cast would remain in her company or as her friend if they felt she really was all bad. We've all got positive and negative traits!
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Raven's analysis of Faye (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=838).
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Interesting 'Guest Strip' Birthday Present.
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Ugh, what a bitch Faye is.
And this is the exact moment this thread got completely derailed, and no longer talks about Jim or Dora, much less their dating.
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If Dora was so insecure about Marten's ex-nothing, how is she going to cope with an ex-wife?
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Well, as one who has both an ex-nothing and an ex-wife, I can say they are very different (and not varying degrees of the same), and I'm not sure which would be more difficult to deal with for a potential girlfriend. On the one hand an ex-nothing represents something that still has possibility, even if neither party wishes to pursue that possibility. An ex-wife on the other hand represents someone you pledged your entire life to, and then it didn't work out. While it's very easy for that flame to rekindle, it's much more likely that due to the long drawn out process that is divorce, your rational mind will overtake your impulsive thoughts, and nothing is likely to happen.
I can see how it would be intimidating though to know that there's someone else out there that your potential SO cared enough about to commit to marriage. That might mess with my head a little.
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I can't help noticing the people who excuse Faye's actions are male (and therefore not victims in that way of the real life Fayes) and older (forgotten what it feels like).
I can't do anything about being male; but being older isn't a matter of forgetting the past (at a late stage the present may become an issue). What you do get with age is accumulated experience, and maybe a bit more perspective on things; don't be too quick to knock it.
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I am pretty sure I have not personally attacked anyone, but if I do, I'd appreciate knowing.
I don't think so either. But some messages in a couple of threads (not only yours) have been somewhat uncivil in a more generic way. Two mods have noted this, and my finger hovered over a lock button yesterday.
I suppose it's fair to note that I view Jeph's twitter comment as a bit of a challenge to show that this forum can be kept behaving reasonably, so I'm being a bit strict at present in applying the rules.
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...but I still disagree with you. I understand that you're trying to lessen my feelings of disdain for Faye in some way, and it's not going to happen.
I see absolutely nothing good in her, at all. As far as I'm concerned she's a completely useless character.
Yeah, I'm getting mad over a fictional character, but I wouldn't get this mad if bitches like her didn't actually exist in real life. They do, and they make the world shittier for being in it.
I wasn't so much trying to lessen your disdain, but rather to get you to see the other side of the Faye coin. Since you steadfastly refuse to even try, my work is done.
I never said anything about it being successful...
Oh, and yes I'm male, and older (but not as old as pwhodges ;)). And no, I've not forgotten what it was like to be a tortured nerd through school. That's why I don't go to reunions - I have friends and family, I don't need to revisit the dicks, bitches and assholes I went to school with. Oddly enough, a few found my facebook account and implored me to come to our umptieth reunion. Seems they'd grown a conscience and wanted to make amends. I began to write one of them back that, had any of them bothered to treat me as a human, I would have considered it.
Then I deleted the letter. Spite gets you nowhere. I thanked them for thinking of me, but no, I was not interested in attending, and left it at that.
I sincerely hope that you'll get past your own tormentors successfully. Most of mine were just bored, cruel kids driven by peer pressure. Some may have been like Faye, lashing out against an unfair world, dealing with deep emotional scars, but I doubt it. Faye's more than just a grown-up bully, and we have the rare opportunity to see that, something we never get in real life.
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I can't help noticing the people who excuse Faye's actions are male (and therefore not victims in that way of the real life Fayes) and older (forgotten what it feels like).
I'm a teenage girl :| And I've been a victim, of people with some qualities similar to Faye's, but not of Fayes. I also get how much it sucks that the quiet person in the media is always just portrayed as 'the quiet person', since you mentioned Marigold.
If I met Faye in real life (this is so weird) she would make me feel anxious because I wouldn't know how to handle her and I would feel like her treatment of me was because I wasn't 'cool enough'. But after a while it would develop into,"That's just Faye" and I wouldn't take it personally. The thing that I think is different about her is she's not a 'pretty girl' nor is she that arrogant 'smart girl' who tries to make people feel stupid. No malice, nothing directed at specific people, no hidden agendas. Sometimes I say tactless things without thinking. I'm not physically violent, but I have tendency to shoot nasty looks when I'm annoyed. I actually can't control this stuff! When I try to explain, I get the "BUT STILL, you should have paid more attention." I think you don't excuse Faye's behaviour because you don't realise you are a lot more socially apt than she is in that way. You already know how to be nice (and it is totes a skill that you learn and it doesn't always make you a more moral person) and it comes easily to you. Unlike others who struggle to control their feelings and see Faye as an exaggerated version of their problem. I hope nobody like you has ever been a victim of mine.
(I'm sorry! I meant for that to only be two lines! If this means nothing to you, fan, then you don't have to respond.)
If Dora was so insecure about Marten's ex-nothing, how is she going to cope with an ex-wife?
Well, as one who has both an ex-nothing and an ex-wife, I can say they are very different (and not varying degrees of the same), and I'm not sure which would be more difficult to deal with for a potential girlfriend. On the one hand an ex-nothing represents something that still has possibility, even if neither party wishes to pursue that possibility. An ex-wife on the other hand represents someone you pledged your entire life to, and then it didn't work out. While it's very easy for that flame to rekindle, it's much more likely that due to the long drawn out process that is divorce, your rational mind will overtake your impulsive thoughts, and nothing is likely to happen.
I can see how it would be intimidating though to know that there's someone else out there that your potential SO cared enough about to commit to marriage. That might mess with my head a little.
Ex-nothing can be so-o-o-ooo much worse than ex-something! And it's the worst that it gets sort of dismissed as a non-problem because two people never banged. It's probably the only thing I can really relate to Dora with. When people (at least, immature people) are crushing on someone their vision of the relationship is perfect. There are no fights, any differences in opinion are just the palatable ones, the potential SO is supportive about everything etc. But with relationships, reality comes in and ruins everything. I dated a guy who was still very close with an ex-nothing.Steve sums up the problem in a way that sounds more sane than if Dora would've said it. (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1102) It was like, every time I had a fight with that guy or I messed up, I would think,"Ugh, I bet this never happened in the pretend relationship he had in his head with X!" and that's what I felt I was competing with. With a real ex, you know they had their own problems and it ended because of a realistic reason. I either just made a lot of sense, or exposed myself as a total wacko.
I don't know, though, the way Dora's brain works. But hopefully Jim isn't living with his ex-wife.
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If Dora was so insecure about Marten's ex-nothing, how is she going to cope with an ex-wife?
I can't help but think of something along the lines of Dora's head exploding.
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If Dora was so insecure about Marten's ex-nothing, how is she going to cope with an ex-wife?
Well, as one who has both an ex-nothing and an ex-wife, I can say they are very different (and not varying degrees of the same), and I'm not sure which would be more difficult to deal with for a potential girlfriend...
Ex-nothing can be so-o-o-ooo much worse than ex-something! And it's the worst that it gets sort of dismissed as a non-problem because two people never banged. It's probably the only thing I can really relate to Dora with. When people (at least, immature people) are crushing on someone their vision of the relationship is perfect. There are no fights, any differences in opinion are just the palatable ones, the potential SO is supportive about everything etc. But with relationships, reality comes in and ruins everything. I dated a guy who was still very close with an ex-nothing.Steve sums up the problem in a way that sounds more sane than if Dora would've said it. (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1102) It was like, every time I had a fight with that guy or I messed up, I would think,"Ugh, I bet this never happened in the pretend relationship he had in his head with X!" and that's what I felt I was competing with. With a real ex, you know they had their own problems and it ended because of a realistic reason. I either just made a lot of sense, or exposed myself as a total wacko.
Excellent analysis, and a great catch on the comic! I never related Steve's problem with Dave to Dora's issue with Faye, but damn, that's a close parallel!
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I can be like Faye in some ways, but I'm nowhere near as relentless as she is, and I do it only to people who deserve it.
I mean I can recall times when I've been mean, but I've definitely been the victim of other people's meanness more than I've been the one being mean.
I can't help but wonder what would have happened if Marten had been like "No, I barely know you...but I can give you the number to a homeless shelter."
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I... can't... resist!
Sorry, I have a habit of throwing myself in between - and never get out of the middle without some bruises here and there. The people here are not trying to convince you to love Faye. They are just trying to let you see the other side. "Hate" is a pretty strong word. People can understand why you dislike Faye. They probably even agree with you to a small degree. But they can't understand the hatred. So they are distinctly trying to "defend" Faye. That happens when people have really strong opinions. Like, when my boyfriend is fighting (verbally) with someone... I will try to get between them... And I would tell my boyfriend "what the other one really wants to say is THIS... you have to understand him a little!" and maybe a few minutes later i would talk to the other one, telling him "what the other guy really meant is THIS... you have to understand him a little!" (I usually won't tell right at the beginning that "the other guy" is my boyfriend - mostly that hardens the opinion right at the beginning) And there I am in the middle... so my boyfriend is telling me "you are ALWAYS taking the other side" and the other guy is telling me "i CAN'T understand, why you are defending such a dig!" aw I can't help it! (And yeah - this did happen quite a lot)
Basically that's what's happening here. Nobody really trys to defend Faye. None trys to change your opinion to the opposite. They just want to soften it a little. Cause there are no purely "good" people an "evil" people.
And then, i wanted to hit you for this comment:
I can be like Faye in some ways, but I'm nowhere near as relentless as she is, and I do it only to people who deserve it.
Did you ever listen to the people you apparently hate most? That's mainly the reason they use to pick on people. "If they just behaved differently I wouldn't", "If she didn't do this and that I wouldn't" "If she wasn't so shut in I wouldn't" "If she didn't always overreact" They just measure who "deserves" it. "yeah, but I only do that to the REALLY EVIL ones" Of course... "If she wasn't so mean to everyone I wouldn't" It's the same... at least for the people who are picked on.
Anyway... Hi, I'm new here :) I only found QC a few months ago, but I read through all the strips in the last few weeks!
I think it IS a little early for Dora to meet Jim. On the other hand, if she said no, that would have meant "definitely" no, because it was rather spontaneous and there is no "i need some more time". Either a date or the opportunity is gone. So in my opinion it's okay ;) Anyway I'm really looking forward to the next strips. It's kind of hard if you can read 100 a day if you want and now have to settle down for one a day :cry:
sumi
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That was quite a first post. Fairly well put though. I know what you mean about the reading all at once, then suddenly stuck with only 5 a week, including guest strips, etc.
I had kind of wanted to say something about that comment as well, but instead I just left that connection in my head, and decided it wasn't worth arguing about. After all, the comic character aren't even real.
I would disagree with one thing. I think if Dora had responded "I just got out of a fairly serious relationship, and I'm not sure if I'm ready to go out," or however that would best be put, I think it would have left the option open for the future. I'm kind of glad she agreed to it though, because so far Jim is becoming one of my favorite new characters, just from an entertainment perspective, and we wouldn't necessarily have gotten to see this side of him (or much of him at all) had this story arc not come about.
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Hmmm...
This thread has taken a really interesting turn! I mean that in a purely anthropological sense.
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This thread is becoming a little too much about the forumites themselves, rather than the QC characters; it has also got largely off the subject of its title. So I'm closing it now; there will surely be plenty more to discuss shortly.