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[questionablecontentfan]

I may be in the minority here, but I think yes.

...sorry, Tai. : (

[LoveJaneAusten]

Dora shouldn't attempt a relationship with anyone.

[Tiogyr]

Dora shouldn't attempt a relationship with anyone.

Because dating =/= a relationship.

[TheEvilDog]

Dora shouldn't attempt a relationship with anyone...yet.

Fixed your post a little bit.

Dora isn't ready for a relationship...yet. The fact is her dating past is littered with presumably abusive exes, her view of relationships has been coloured by her brother's actions (people only being "friends" with her just to be near Sven), Sven's own "Shag 'em and leave 'em" attitude pre-Faye. If we look at the last somewhat decent romantic relationship, with Marten, Dora sabotaged that relationship, for what reason beyond it seemed too good to be true? (Even Sven said that Marten was the best guy she had ever gone out with)

Dora has a lot of issues with men that she needs to work through, and until then, no, I don't think she should go out with Jim or Tai, until she's alright. Otherwise it'll end in tears.

[questionablecontentfan]

: (


Obviously Jim doesn't have those ulterior motives, he's just really attracted to her (and her personality, it seems).

I mean, just because she's not ready for a relationship doesn't mean they couldn't just date and see where things went.

I don't know, Jim seems nice. It helps that he's older and hopefully a bit more mature than Marten was, so that might help.

Well, presumably, if she has issues with men, dating Tai would be ok. The reason I have problems with Tai is because Tai is very young and impulsive, and also because she doesn't believe in monogamy. A monogamous person dating a non monogamous person can create lots of complications. Also, she's Marten's boss...

Maybe it's not a good idea, but if I were Dora I would go to dinner with Jim. It's just dinner, it's not like they're getting married or anything. Jim obviously has his own baggage from his divorce, so that could be drama waiting to happen if Dora was to date him seriously. Picture the ex wife showing up...eek.

[Emperor Norton]

The reason I have problems with Tai is because Tai is very young and impulsive, and also because she doesn't believe in monogamy. A monogamous person dating a non monogamous person can create lots of complications.

I do remember her expressing a real desire for monogamy and hating that none of the smif girls seemed to really be into it, so I think you've got Tai pegged wrong here. I'm sure an archive ninja could find the exact comic.

Of course, I'm also in the camp of "Dora please sort out your issues before you contemplate any dating."

[TheEvilDog]

QCfan, I said men because although Dora might identify herself as bisexual, we've seen no proof that any of her exes were women. But that doesn't mean that she should go out with Tai either. Tai is looking for a monogomous relationship, but is herself too immature to actually think about what she wants, and is too impulsive for her own good. Mix that with Dora as is she is and both parties would be extremely hurt, very quickly.

Another point that was raised in the WCDT, is that Dora and Jim are new business partners, so for them to go out on even a date is just asking for trouble. (Don't mix business with pleasure seems extremely appropriate, theres also another saying that pretty much says the same thing, but has considerably more swearwords involved).

[jwhouk]

Fail. It should be a poll, with Waffles as an option. 

[DSL]

Been pointed out already, but it hasn't been established whether Jim's asking Dora out, or whether this is a hilariously misinterpreted request to talk business in neutral but pleasant surroundings. Of course, there was one critically acclaimed sitcom that pretty much was defined by double-entendre.

[Elfa]

Personally, I think a relationship with Jim could be a positive light in Dora's life.  Martin was nice and sweet but young and still confused and unsure about what he wants from life.

Jim on the other hand is older, established and stable (or what passes for stable for Jim), and a responsible business owner like Dora.  The only issues I could see in this particular relationship would be that both Dora and Jim have businesses that compete directly, though that could be easily solved by a joint venture into some sort of bastardized Mega Coffee of Ultimate Doom. (if Jeph uses that name, I get a nickle every time someone reads it.)

So, for my part, I'd like to see this story line continued.

[LeeC]

  what if she says yes and later Tai stops by to offer an invite and she declines because she has a date!

honestly I still think Dora needs to do more soul searching before dating anyone.  And to be honest I dont like Tai or Jum as the next person even if she was theoretically "ready."

[Emperor Norton]

Personally, I think a relationship with Jim could be a positive light in Dora's life.  Martin was nice and sweet but young and still confused and unsure about what he wants from life.

Jim on the other hand is older, established and stable (or what passes for stable for Jim), and a responsible business owner like Dora.  The only issues I could see in this particular relationship would be that both Dora and Jim have businesses that compete directly, though that could be easily solved by a joint venture into some sort of bastardized Mega Coffee of Ultimate Doom. (if Jeph uses that name, I get a nickle every time someone reads it.)

So, for my part, I'd like to see this story line continued.

Yeah, but what ended the relationship was Dora feeling that Marten was going to leave HER because she wasn't good enough.

How would dating someone who is arguably BETTER OFF help that?

[Elfa]

Personally, I think a relationship with Jim could be a positive light in Dora's life.  Martin was nice and sweet but young and still confused and unsure about what he wants from life.

Jim on the other hand is older, established and stable (or what passes for stable for Jim), and a responsible business owner like Dora.  The only issues I could see in this particular relationship would be that both Dora and Jim have businesses that compete directly, though that could be easily solved by a joint venture into some sort of bastardized Mega Coffee of Ultimate Doom. (if Jeph uses that name, I get a nickle every time someone reads it.)

So, for my part, I'd like to see this story line continued.

Yeah, but what ended the relationship was Dora feeling that Marten was going to leave HER because she wasn't good enough.

How would dating someone who is arguably BETTER OFF help that?

Bringing up Dora's feelings of abandonment is a valid point.  Though I think that the situation with Faye helped to feed that feeling unfairly in that particular case and admittedly, the long history between Martin and Faye would have been cause for anyone with even slight feelings of inadequacy to tick towards destruction.  

Now I'm not saying that Jim's responsibility and more mature life (an assumption based on age and job only), would be the shining light that Dora is in need of, only that without any sort of immediate catalyst for jealousy and fear, there is a greater chance for long term happiness and stability that Dora deserves.  

Now I'm not sure what you meant by better off, but if it was referring to being financially better off, then it never hurts to be financially stable in a relationship since it's just one less stress on everyone.  If, however, you meant emotionally, well I would think, metaphorically, that it's easier to start a new journey with your first footsteps on solid ground than on quicksand.

On the other hand I could be WAY off target, lol.

[Emperor Norton]

How would dating someone who is arguably BETTER OFF help that?

Obviously, she should look for someone "worse" than herself -- that's the best way to combat insecurities.


/this thread is already off to a good start ^^

That is seriously twisting what I was saying. I've already stated in the thread that she should focus on her problems first alone before dating at all. I was pointing out that, dating someone more mature wouldn't magically solve her insecurity problems.

Honestly, Marten's maturity was really never an issue in their relationship anyway.

[LeeC]

I'd say it was more her maturity, granted also her insecurities.

[Kazukagii]

*Dusts off the old hardhat, and hits the reply button*

Right, long rambling wall of Kazukagii stream of consciousness incoming.

Personally I just don't think Dora will do it. Dora is well aware that is was her own problems that lead to breaking up with Marten, and while Jeph has shown she's attending therepy, I don't think enough time has passed that she's totally okay now. Dora knows that any relationship she enters into is going to turn toxic. Not to mention I know (or at least hope) that dating another guy before even having any kind of post relationship talk with Marten may just hurt our skinny indie boy's feelings a tad. Now as I say this I am not talking down on Jim: he seems like a pretty cool guy. I'm putting it forth that Dora has enough sense to turn this down, not based on her like or dislike of Jim, but rather on the fact that it really won't end well for anybody involved, or even anybody watching from the sidelines.

Also I'd just like to point out that I find it amusing that half the cast is suddenly pining for Dora. Marten was apparently the one thing keeping the entire city from jumping Dora's bones.

[buchla265]

I say yes, and admit I'm biased because I prefer older men.  

Jim seems like he'll be good for her, even if they only have one date and end up as friends.  He'll be a good business mentor, at the very least.

And if they do end up dating, he seems like the kind of man who can both call her out and help her with her insecurity issues.  That's something I don't think Tai can do, as much as I'd love to be a hardcore "Dora and Tai should get together for sexy fun time" shipper".

[questionablecontentfan]

I like the fact that Jim just went ahead and asked, even though he was probably nervous. No pretending, no being silly, no playing games. He just did it. I think that shows that he is mature. And yes, I was a sucker for the compliment he gave her about being a woman and not a little girl.

And yes, I am pretty sure he is asking her on a date, not to talk business.

[Tiogyr]

Why does anyone give a damn what a given ex thinks re: starting to date other people? Dora shouldn't care how Marten feels about her dating someone else and Marten shouldn't be pining around waiting to talk to her about breaking up before he moves on with his life, either.

They broke up, there is no reason to keep dwelling on that fact or have any more talks about it coming up on two months down the road comic-time, is there?

[TheEvilDog]

Bringing up Dora's feelings of abandonment is a valid point.  Though I think that the situation with Faye helped to feed that feeling unfairly in that particular case and admittedly, the long history between Martin and Faye would have been cause for anyone with even slight feelings of inadequacy to tick towards destruction.  

Now I'm not saying that Jim's responsibility and more mature life (an assumption based on age and job only), would be the shining light that Dora is in need of, only that without any sort of immediate catalyst for jealousy and fear, there is a greater chance for long term happiness and stability that Dora deserves.  

Now I'm not sure what you meant by better off, but if it was referring to being financially better off, then it never hurts to be financially stable in a relationship since it's just one less stress on everyone.  If, however, you meant emotionally, well I would think, metaphorically, that it's easier to start a new journey with your first footsteps on solid ground than on quicksand.

On the other hand I could be WAY off target, lol.

Except, when you look at Dora and Marten's relationship, he was good for Dora, especially compared to Dora's ex boyfriends. 1746, Sven admitted that Marten was the first guy she ever dated that ever treated her kindly, respected her. In short Marten was the first healthy relationship Dora ever had. He was a step forward for her.

Then she broke up with him because of that simple fact, that Marten was a nice guy, with no ulterior motive, wasn't a douchebag, which raised a lot of questions for Dora about her, was she the reason that her other relationships were so bad? etc, etc. Granted, Marten was listless, about as assertive as a jellyfish on a beach, he wasn't perfect, but the fact that she broke up with him in a pre-emptive attempt to not be the one hurt here, speaks volumes about Dora's mind.

So imagine what would happen if we take Jim, who is presumably a nice guy (his staff don't talk about him behind his back), responsible and assertive (he'd have to be, in order to still have a bakery that was still open, and able to employ at least three people (we haven't scar-neck since that one panel)) ended up going out with Dora. He'd be like super-Marten, and Dora's mind would probably break down from the belief that Jim was so far out of her league.

[questionablecontentfan]

Dora broke up with Marten because he had unresolved feelings for Faye. This won't be an issue with Jim.

I second the older men comment. There's just something...

There is the question of whether Dora actually feels any attraction to Jim. Maybe she does, but she hid it. Or maybe this incident will make her realize it. I don't know.

If she does date Jim, it won't make Tai very happy, that's for sure.

[Emperor Norton]

Why does anyone give a damn what a given ex thinks re: starting to date other people? Dora shouldn't care how Marten feels about her dating someone else and Marten shouldn't be pining around waiting to talk to her about breaking up before he moves on with his life, either.

They broke up, there is no reason to keep dwelling on that fact or have any more talks about it coming up on two months down the road comic-time, is there?

Because they still care about each other? Not in a together way, but they still do care about each others feelings. It may be different for me, because I've never done the CUT ALL TIES WITH YOUR EXES thing, and am friends with almost all of them still, but I care how what I do makes them feel, even if I think they are being irrational about it.

Now, as far as the whole Dora starting to date so soon after dumping Marten, its not about them breaking up, its WHY they broke up. From what she said, it wasn't that she didn't love him, it was that SHE COULDN'T FUNCTION IN ANY RELATIONSHIP. I don't know about you, but if a girl broke up with me claiming that, and then turned around and started dating again not long after... maybe its a bit irrational, but this is the moment that it would really hit that she isn't in love with me anymore. Breaking up and the feelings of love don't always end at the same time.

[Elfa]

Except, when you look at Dora and Marten's relationship, he was good for Dora, especially compared to Dora's ex boyfriends. 1746, Sven admitted that Marten was the first guy she ever dated that ever treated her kindly, respected her. In short Marten was the first healthy relationship Dora ever had. He was a step forward for her.

Then she broke up with him because of that simple fact, that Marten was a nice guy, with no ulterior motive, wasn't a douchebag, which raised a lot of questions for Dora about her, was she the reason that her other relationships were so bad? etc, etc. Granted, Marten was listless, about as assertive as a jellyfish on a beach, he wasn't perfect, but the fact that she broke up with him in a pre-emptive attempt to not be the one hurt here, speaks volumes about Dora's mind.

So imagine what would happen if we take Jim, who is presumably a nice guy (his staff don't talk about him behind his back), responsible and assertive (he'd have to be, in order to still have a bakery that was still open, and able to employ at least three people (we haven't scar-neck since that one panel)) ended up going out with Dora. He'd be like super-Marten, and Dora's mind would probably break down from the belief that Jim was so far out of her league.

So are you saying that Dora simply used Faye as a means to act upon her insecurities with Martin rather than Faye being an actual catalyst?  If that's the case then you doom Dora to a never ending loop of failed relationships, unable to ever be happy with anyone because she thinks she shouldn't be.

I would hate to see Dora stumble further down that road.

[Emperor Norton]

Yes and no. I agree that her insecurities would have popped up with or without Faye existing.

But that doesn't mean she is fated to repeat it indefinitely. It means that she needs to deal with her issues (like she is currently trying to by going to therapy) BEFORE getting involved with someone else. I mean, I just don't see how she could get over relationship crippling insecurities in 2 months or however long its been since she started going to therapy.

[TheEvilDog]

Where did it say that Marten had unresolved feelings for Faye? If anything, anything resembling a romantic relationship they could have had sank after Faye told Marten about her father's suicide. They went from being potentially knocking boots to best friends. The Toto moment cemented that, as did the comic with Marten "attacking" Angus, Scott Pilgrim style. The only one who ever felt there were unresolved issues between the pair was Dora. Thats one of the reasons Dora broke up with him.

[questionablecontentfan]

Where did it say that Marten had unresolved feelings for Faye? If anything, anything resembling a romantic relationship they could have had sank after Faye told Marten about her father's suicide. They went from being potentially knocking boots to best friends. The Toto moment cemented that, as did the comic with Marten "attacking" Angus, Scott Pilgrim style. The only one who ever felt there were unresolved issues between the pair was Dora. Thats one of the reasons Dora broke up with him.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to agree with Dora. I mean, look how he acted directly after he and Dora broke up. He was drunk and hitting on Faye. Through their relationship, Marten still had feelings for Faye, which Dora knew about, tried to deal with, couldn't deal with. I don't blame her, really. No, I don't think his feelings went away after Faye told him about her father's suicide. He still wanted Faye first, and was really only with Dora because he couldn't have Faye.

I see the thing with Jim going in a positive direction. Older men are a bit more...I don't know, willing to deal with issues, they're not as easily spooked as younger men are, they've gotten over some of that. Not entirely, but more. I mean, he got divorced for goodness' sake, he can deal with a woman in her mid-twenties with trust issues and baggage from a past relationship. Maybe after what he went through, he knows how to treat a woman better because he was treated so badly. I'm guessing, but it could be. I want to steal a quote I read somewhere: "I like older men. I like a man who knows his way around a woman's body and mind and doesn't have the immaturity issues younger men have."

As for being friends with exes, I don't get that at all. I don't think anyone should feel obligated to have a friendship with someone who may have ripped their heart out.

[Emperor Norton]

Sorry, but I'm going to have to agree with Dora. I mean, look how he acted directly after he and Dora broke up. He was drunk and hitting on Faye. Through their relationship, Marten still had feelings for Faye, which Dora knew about, tried to deal with, couldn't deal with. I don't blame her, really. No, I don't think his feelings went away after Faye told him about her father's suicide. He still wanted Faye first, and was really only with Dora because he couldn't have Faye.

He was drunk and depressed. Drunk enough that he doesn't REMEMBER what he did. Was it stupid? Yeah, definitely. But alcohol isn't the truth serum people act like it is. Sometimes it just makes you act like an idiot, not "act out your true feelings."

I see the thing with Jim going in a positive direction. Older men are a bit more...I don't know, willing to deal with issues, they're not as easily spooked as younger men are, they've gotten over some of that. Not entirely, but more. I mean, he got divorced for goodness' sake, he can deal with a woman in her mid-twenties with trust issues and baggage from a past relationship. Maybe after what he went through, he knows how to treat a woman better because he was treated so badly. I'm guessing, but it could be. I want to steal a quote I read somewhere: "I like older men. I like a man who knows his way around a woman's body and mind and doesn't have the immaturity issues younger men have."

Marten had no problem with dealing with Dora's issues. Even at the end, he wanted to KEEP TRYING TO DEAL WITH THEM. She was spooked, not him.

And Jim being divorced doesn't exactly make me think POSITIVELY of his experience with women. I mean, it doesn't show anything negative to me, at least, not without knowing why they divorced, but its kind of a neutral thing without more information.

As for being friends with exes, I don't get that at all. I don't think anyone should feel obligated to have a friendship with someone who may have ripped their heart out.

Wait where did I say anyone was obligated to? I'm still friends with my exes, but that's because it generally ended on good terms. I don't get how the end of a relationship means that ONE HUNDRED PERCENT OF THE TIME you stop caring about the other person. I mean, there are times when I understand that, but it really depends on why the relationship ENDED. Some people just don't work out, or maybe it was a thing they both knew wouldn't be permanent going into it. It doesn't necessarily mean they think the other person is necessarily a bad person, or even an unfun person to hang out with in a platonic way.

[TheEvilDog]

Everything Emperor Norton just said.....Perfect.

Marten acted like an idiot that time because he was DRUNK, DEPRESSED AND FELT LIKE SHIT. Hmmm, I wonder why that was again...Oh yeah, because his girlfriend broke up with him because of her own issues. Examples leading up to break up - Dora getting aggressive despite being in the wrong, Marten realising he was sick of having to deal with Dora's issues non-stop and Dora admitting that she knows they're fighting over her issues.

As for staying friends with an ex, why not? People spend significant time to someone for them to care. Its not like when you break up with someone that its, every connection is cut. I mean, a person obviously cared enough for someone, they still do. Unless they're evil and heartless.

[Kugai]

Waffles

[TheEvilDog]

Waffles

Well said good sir.

[Not Batman]

If I had waited until all my insecurities were sorted out before going out on a date, I'd still be a bachelor.

[Emperor Norton]

If I had waited until all my insecurities were sorted out before going out on a date, I'd still be a bachelor.

Its not about waiting for ALL of your insecurities to be sorted out. Seriously, the entire relationship with Marten, collapsed based on her insecurities. If it was something she could sort out enough to date again in 2 months... why did they break up at all?

[Somnus Eternus]

I'm completely against the idea of Dora dating Jim, not because of whatever emotional insecurities she has but for the simple fact that their relationship is a professional one.

It was ridic unprofessional of him to even ask her out.

[O8h7w]

Seriously, the entire relationship with Marten, collapsed based on her insecurities. If it was something she could sort out enough to date again in 2 months... why did they break up at all?

Well, it was even less than two months (maybe just one) between her agreeing to try and do something about it and the breakup. In the light of that, I don't think of the breakup as a very rational decision.

[jwhouk]

TL,DR other replies, but here's my take:

Dora will likely tell Jim, "No thanks, I just got out of a relationship and I don't think I'm ready to see anyone else for a while."

This will happen just after Tai entered the shop - without Dora realizing she's there - until after Jim walks out of the shop, sad.

[jwhouk]

Dora broke up with Marten because she thought he still had unresolved feelings for Faye.

FTFY. There has been nowhere - other than the drunken little bit that caused the "owl attack" - that he has EVER suggested he had unresolved feelings for Ms. Whitaker.

Yes, Jim doesn't have that baggage, but imagine what happens if his ex suddenly blows into his life and tries to reconcile or something? There goes the therapy bill.

[Elfa]

I'm completely against the idea of Dora dating Jim, not because of whatever emotional insecurities she has but for the simple fact that their relationship is a professional one.

It was ridic unprofessional of him to even ask her out.

Many a successful relationship has come out of business arrangements.  I don't see it as unprofessional as much as older man interested in a beautiful, responsible younger woman with common business interests.

[LeeC]

for all we know he just wants to be friends and pick her brain about owning a small business.  See how his experience has differed and perhaps learn a new way to become more efficient at something that he had not thought of before.

[Somnus Eternus]

I'm completely against the idea of Dora dating Jim, not because of whatever emotional insecurities she has but for the simple fact that their relationship is a professional one.

It was ridic unprofessional of him to even ask her out.

Many a successful relationship has come out of business arrangements.  I don't see it as unprofessional as much as older man interested in a beautiful, responsible younger woman with common business interests.

Perhaps, but they just began their business relationship.  I don't think it's particularly appropriate to be asking out a new business partner (of sorts) quite THAT soon.

[Elfa]

I'm completely against the idea of Dora dating Jim, not because of whatever emotional insecurities she has but for the simple fact that their relationship is a professional one.

It was ridic unprofessional of him to even ask her out.

Many a successful relationship has come out of business arrangements.  I don't see it as unprofessional as much as older man interested in a beautiful, responsible younger woman with common business interests.

Perhaps, but they just began their business relationship.  I don't think it's particularly appropriate to be asking out a new business partner (of sorts) quite THAT soon.

Well, think of it this way.  It's harder to convert a friendship to a romantic relationship successfully if it's been a relationship for a long time.  I imagine the same would apply here.  Better to ask now while it's early and establish the boundaries than wait till months or years down the road when Dora may be less willing to upset the apple cart.

[Carl-E]

I disagree.  A good friend can turn into a romantic relationship quite suddenly, even after a long term friendship.  Sometimes it screws everything up, bt not always. 

I think Dora will ask something along the lines, "You mean a date?"

And Jim will back down - "No, no, it doesn't have to be, just a chance to get to know each other a little better". 


And the boundaries will  be set.  One really shouldn't mix business and pleasure in this way - if the relationship starts and then goes south, so does the business deal! 

[questionablecontentfan]

Dora broke up with Marten because she thought he still had unresolved feelings for Faye.

FTFY. There has been nowhere - other than the drunken little bit that caused the "owl attack" - that he has EVER suggested he had unresolved feelings for Ms. Whitaker.

Yes, Jim doesn't have that baggage, but imagine what happens if his ex suddenly blows into his life and tries to reconcile or something? There goes the therapy bill.

I disagree. He does have unresolved feelings. I don't care if he was drunk. He still did it, and he also thought about how nice he was to not be weird about Faye being with someone else. Hence, unresolved issues.

I mean that whole mess is part of why I can't stand Faye.

[gprimr1]

Dora has been fortunate too that the friends she hired are honest people. That can blow up too.

I think that right now, I would say no. He seems a bit creepy and she doesn't need a creeper. Plus it would be bad for COD.

[Akima]

Jim's anger issues about his divorce are a bit of a red flag too.

[questionablecontentfan]

Um, he's not angry. He's just bitter. And that doesn't mean anything about how he would treat Dora. His ex wife could be a total psycho bitch for all we know.

And I don't think Jim is creepy at all. He seems nice genuine, not playing games. I don't think it's creepy that he asked Dora out or was attracted to her. He's probably in his early forties. Sure, quite a bit older than Dora, but hardly a creep.

[akronnick]

Should Dora go out with Jim?

[allfourbeatles] NO! [/allfourbeatles]

Next question.


I don't think Dora is interested in anything other than Jim's baked goods.

If you look at Dora's body language when she interacts with Jim and compare that to when Tai came into the store after the break up (with butterflies.)

I don't think Jim has much of a chance.

[Deadlywonky]

I think this one's now been answered

[pwhodges]

Not the "should she" - only the "will she".

[Dr. ROFLPWN]

Yes.

[bhtooefr]

No way in hell.

Don't shit where you eat, don't dip your pen in company ink, etc., etc.