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Author Topic: Regarding personal preferences  (Read 53950 times)

Will

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Regarding personal preferences
« on: 26 Dec 2006, 07:12 »

I was driving home tonight, and I had one of those out-of-nowhere thoughts that I have sometimes, so I figured I'd post it here and see what comes of it: 

There are a lot of people - especially on this forum - who pride themselves in having a very broad musical palate.  I consider myself one of them; I'll go from listening to Converge one day to Miles Davis the next and not think anything unusual about that.  I know that I didn't always have this approach - for a lot of my early high school years I wouldn't listen to anything but hardcore and metal, and I missed out on a lot of great music by being that close-minded, but I always would explain that away by saying 'oh, I just don't like that.'  Since then, my tastes have broadened, and I no longer refuse to listen to something just because it isn't 'heavy,' but it leaves me with this question:

Because at that point in my life I wouldn't have listened to, say, Godspeed, or Mogwai, or even Fugazi (not to mention a lot of the even quieter music I am now fond of ), I would have been called close-minded and not open to other styles of music, and it would have been said as a negative trait.  But if I only listened to something like indie rock, or singer/songwriter stuff, just to name a couple examples, and refused to listen to anything heavy, no one would consider that a bad thing.  So what is it about metal/hardcore/punk that makes it so acceptable in most people's eyes to ignore?  If you're a metalhead who refuses to listen to jazz because you just don't care for it, people call you out on that as though it's a character flaw, but if you listen to jazz and ignore all metal for the same reason, you're somehow cultured and have "sophisticated taste?"  I kind of don't get it?

Please note that I'm not meaning to accuse ANYONE of this - this forum is one of the coolest places I know of to talk music with internet strangers - I just see this as kind of a societal norm, and it makes me curious what some of you think...sorry in advance if this turns into another stupid post, I'm really just genuinely curious...
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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #1 on: 26 Dec 2006, 08:22 »

It's all about your understanding of music. Aging and maturity should, in the discerning music listener, cultivate a genuine appreciation - at least an appreciation - for varied and diverse genres. This does not necessarily mean that the listener will like everything that comes to his or her ears, but it does mean that the music will be listened to and evaluated fairly regardless of its genre. At the same time, the older you get, the more forgiving you should be of others' tastes. One of the huge steps that people need to take when music is a significant part of their life is to acknowledge that other people may not necessarily like what you like, share your passions or even have the level of tact that you do regarding subjectivity.

However this shouldn't apply exclusively to people who like primarily rock or primarily metal or primarily techno or primarily jazz. If you take music seriously then it should - it must - apply to you. Otherwise you're going to be stuck in some form or another of a perpetual adolescence as far as your tastes are concerned. In the months since I turned 18 I have been increasingly tilting towards this perspective and it definitely helps in situations where people ask you to listen to something. It helps in conversations about movies, books, music, art, everything. It's also made me feel a lot more confident regarding my ability to evaluate music and about the way I treat other people. I don't have fantastic tact but it's improving, with a small part of that being thanks to my attitudes about tastes.

There's a difference between being cultured and being an elitist, and a significant part of that is maturity.
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KharBevNor

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #2 on: 26 Dec 2006, 08:33 »

Basically, read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. You'll only have to go through the first ten chapters to probably get an idea of why I suggested that. To elucidate for people who don't get it, and who haven't read it, One of the many ideas put forward in Zen... is that people can appear to be superficially similiar in their tastes or outlooks and yet have deep differences of outlook so absolutely fundamental that you may not even notice them. Its a matter of aesthetic worldviews. The dominant worldview at its most basic favours art which comments directly and unequivocally upon real life: at the end of the day, there's not such a huge aesthetic gap between, say, Big Brother and Broken Social Scene. This worldview values the subtlety of every day emotions and feelings, realistic stories and vignettes, internal references to a shared popular culture, and so on and so forth. This, at the end of the day, is in my opinion, a lot more important in peoples musical tastes than audial style. Audially, there isn't a million miles between Nick Cave and Current 93. Hell, they've made albums together. But, people have much more liking for Nick Cave because his songs, his most popular ones especially, tend to embody more realistic or recognisable stories, whilst Dave Tibet, whilst he does tell very personal stories, likes to the tell them in a manner that makes detailed references to the works of Aleister Crowley and the fates of his pet cats. This might be a bad example, but hey. Metal, of course, does not really embody this aesthetic. In fact, it embodies a completely opposite aesthetic. Metal is fantastic. Literally. It is about larger than life characters in unreal situations, dressed like Satans take on the village people. When metal comments on the world, it comments on issues outside most peoples experience, mostly historical and military. It is exaggerated, stark, brash, and comes off to supporters of the first aesthetic as adolescent and crude, whilst to its fans it can offer literally transcendent emotion. You will also find goth rock, industrial/post-industrial, fantasy music etc. in this aesthetic camp. If you look at what artists and songs in the metal genre are liked by indie fans, you can see how this comes off: a lot of people who are generally indie fans like metal ironically, ie, they view the whole thing as, basically, a post-modernist reference to itself. That's why when more hipster type people start a metal band it will do well in the indie community but completely tank in the metalhead arena: very few metalheads listen to Goblin Cock. They can smell the insincerity a mile off. Jazz, generally, belongs to the first aesthetic category, as do a lot of the people on these forums and indeed a general majority of the populace. To put it shortly: metal isn't cool.

Also, in considering the issue of jazz vs metal, it might be worth noting that, in America in particular, some elements have trickled down to the modern indie milieu of the rampant anti-racist sentiments of the cooler sections of the 60's counterculture. That is, there is an unconscious racial judgement made that sees metal as something inherently white, and thus crass, and jazz as something inherently black, and thus cool. Although, I say that its unconscious, but if hipsters want to mock metal, then the phrases 'white trash' and 'white supremacy', even if used purely as a joke, are not far behind. It is often subconsciously, or consciously, assumed that every metalhead who hates rap is probably just a little bit racist. Actually, due to his aesthetic worldview, most rap is pretty much the diametric opposite of what it is he wants to hear. He can't understand it on the most basic level. A lot of metalheads do probably have some subconscious racism, because a lot of them are white and middle class, but, in general, I don't think race really has anything to do with a bands musical output whatsoever, and, in some way, a lot of people do. I don't understand the hip-hop cultures seeming monomaniac obsession with race any more than I understand heterosexual men not wanting it up the poopchute. I mean, to illustrate an example: outside the NSBM and NSBM friendly twats, I don't think any metalhead would actually judge a band on, whether they were, say, black (like most of the admittedly ironically named Znowhite) or asian (countless amazing Japanese and other bands), they would judge them on the music, whilst, seemingly, a white rapper already has quite a hurdle to overcome anyway, and basically has to key in to black culture to have any success (whilst, a band, like, say, Sigh, might be entirely rooted in Japanese culture). I'm rambling off on this without being PC, by the way, so no offence to anyone. It's just, like I say, I don't ever actually consider race as an issue in music (or any walk of life, really), so I don't talk or think about this sort of thing much.

That's what I think anyway. I have sort of been considering writing an article on my blog on this sparked off by going off and browsing that Electrical Audio forum and basically not being able to comprehend the value judgements of pretty much everyone there.
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Kai

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #3 on: 26 Dec 2006, 08:40 »

I haven't read that entire thing (will get to it in a minute) but Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Repair is a great book.
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Ernest

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #4 on: 26 Dec 2006, 08:48 »

@Kharbevnor- Yeah, basically.
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Will

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #5 on: 26 Dec 2006, 08:56 »

I might have to go to the bookstore tomorrow and see if they have that, Khar, thanks...

I'm of the camp that all forms of music have some worth if you dig deep enough; hell, even rap and country, the two genres almost universally dismissed as worthless by hipsters and their ilk, have some songs and even some artists that I find worth paying attention to.  I just find it incredibly frustrating to constantly run into the mindset that metal (i'll use that to describe all kinds of heavy music, just for the sake of clarity) is for neanderthals and anyone with a "sophisticated" music taste will ignore it, while anyone who ignores the "classics" is *obviously* a mindless cretin. 

I had a friend who was taking string classes last year, who's teacher informed him that A Silver Mt. Zion was not 'real' music, and that he would do well to not waste his time by listening to it.  I can understand not liking them - your taste in music is your own, and you shouldn't have to answer to anyone but yourself for it - but it offends me that someone would make a comment like that.  By what authority does a person dictate to others what is and is not considered music, or even art?

As it happens, posting this has sort of forced me to reconcile the above opinions with my own tendency to be a bit of a prick when it comes to music...so as to avoid being a hypocrite, I think it might be time for me to become less of an arse with my friends who really like what I think is utter shit...
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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #6 on: 26 Dec 2006, 09:08 »

The problem your friend ran into seems to be a fairly common academic standpoint, which emphasizes this ivory-tower examination of music. In a four-hundred-page music textbook titled Music: An Appreciation, rock music gets six pages, with a paragraph dedicated to rap and a couple sentences dedicated to heavy metal. At one point it discusses how Ice T's Bodycount "combined speed metal guitar riffs with rapped lyrics" and proceeds to draw lines between that band and Limp Bizkit, which apparently "showed that rap was no longer solely a field for African American artists." Hector Berlioz, meanwhile, has six pages dedicated exclusively to himself and his music.

And there really shouldn't be any "jazz vs. metal" argument. There's no versus there. Each is a valid genre with its highs and its lows.
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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #7 on: 26 Dec 2006, 09:31 »

Khar's point is exactly what I've been trying to say, more or less. I listen to a fairly large amount of metal, and pretty much no rap music, but it's not like I'm some closet racist; I just like music that's focused around instrumentation.

And as somebody who likes jazz and metal I think this argument is pretty dumb. In fact, there are plenty of metal bands who use jazz structure and style all the time. Atheist is pretty much just jazz with most of the usual instrumentation being replaced by shitloads of guitar tracks.

I will admit pretty easily that I have a relatively narrow musical taste. I listen to a fairly specific section of the metal subgenre, 60s and 70s style rock, prog rock, some avant-garde, jazz, and blues, and that's pretty much it. I would hope that doesn't reflect badly upon myself as a person, but the fact is that I naturally gravitate towards music that I haven't heard within the styles that I like rather than entire new genres of music.
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KharBevNor

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #8 on: 26 Dec 2006, 09:56 »

To comment on the 'metalheads as neanderthals' thing, this comes pretty much from a vastly innacurate picture of metalheads. We're going to consider a stock character: hipster in the street. The vast majority of his cultural information on heavy metal concerns a certain type of American metal fan of the eighties: Heavy Metal Parking Lot, Beavis and Butthead, Otto from the Simpsons, whatever. His day to day experience of metalheads is mini-moshers at the local mall. He spices this up with Ruthless Reviews top 10 worst black metal pics and a few articles from Vice Magazine and he has developed an opinion of metal vastly different from the facts: for a start, he thinks of metal as having a much narrower demographic appeal than it actually has, and of being much less intelligent than it is. Furthermore, he doesn't actually understand it. He rarely if ever meets a real metalhead over the age of 18. He never really bothers to try and understand what metalheads think, or why they like the things they do. Remember, the hipster in the street ascribes to that first, 'reality-centric' aesthetic. He thrives on post-modernism, and popular culture, and thus the representations he sees of metalheads to him embody metalheads. Any metalheads he may meet who differ from his ideas are exceptions to the rule.

In fact, metal has changed a lot in those past 16 years, and European metal, which now has far more dominance, both in terms of its bands' fanbases and its general musical influence, has always been a different kettle of fish from what was going on in America anyway. I've encountered some hipsters who actually think they have the jump on 'real' metalheads because they're listening to things like Opeth and Agalloch, which have both been going for ten years or so now. Peoples expectations are, simply, wrong. I'm not sure they've ever been right, except for at a certain place (America) at a certain time. Metal was invented as much by fantasy geeks with degrees as by blue collar stoners like Black Sabbath, and even then you have to remember that Black Sabbath were the blue collar stoners hooked on occult literature and the music of Django Reinhardt. 

EDIT: An example. A friend of mine at school once commented that he thought it very strange that the top three scoring history students doing A-Levels at my school (one of whom, I will modestly state was me) were all huge metalheads. Comments were also passed about why such a huge number of the people doing A-Level art at my school were into metal (whereas all the textile students were a bit chavvy. As we shared a studio it led to some amusing visual contrast and lots of fights over the stereo). I went to a relatively small private school, so you can't really pull out any social judgements, but I'm just commenting on the perception of how my friend clearly viewed at as something of an aberration that a high percentage of the schools metalhead population were high-achieving (in the context of the school, though I have to say I met some of the stupidest people I've ever known at that place) humanities students.
« Last Edit: 27 Dec 2006, 06:36 by KharBevNor »
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ScrambledGregs

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #9 on: 27 Dec 2006, 05:53 »

I don't really know why I like jazz and not metal. I just do?? I could give reasons but ultimately it would lead to arguments, increasingly petty, that go nowhere. Short of somehow getting amnesia and being reprogrammed by a group of metalheads, jazz will always be better than metal because I like it much more. I do think there may be something to the reverse racism argument, but since the majority of modern jazz fans are white.....well, I don't know where I'm going with this.

Basically, there's no accounting for taste, yadda yadda.
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KharBevNor

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #10 on: 27 Dec 2006, 06:12 »

but since the majority of modern jazz fans are white.....

...the reverse racism argument makes perfect sense.
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KharBevNor

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #11 on: 27 Dec 2006, 06:17 »

pardon
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NiMRoD420

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #12 on: 27 Dec 2006, 06:23 »

KharBevNor...

Thanks, man. That's all I really feel inclined to say regarding your statements here. I was getting all excited and ready to type most of that out when I realized that you already said it.
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KharBevNor

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #13 on: 27 Dec 2006, 06:38 »

I could give reasons

Do then. I didn't type all that shit out not to discuss it or build on it.
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Dimmukane

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #14 on: 27 Dec 2006, 11:01 »

Yeah, I gotta give it to Khar, fantastic post.  There's this poster on the gamespot forums, LSJ(bunch of numbers) who's a huge Cure fan.  There was some thread someone started about Death Metal (on the GS forums, however, people think this means Children of Bodom and other gothenburg/gothenburg-influenced stuff), and some people came and attacked it, LSJ being one of them.  He wasn't being particularly harsh, he generally stayed on the reasonable doubt side of an argument.  They were all arguing over the wrong things, and then LSJ up and says "oh, you'll grow out of it eventually.  you'll realize how cheesy metal is and start listening to real music."  And I was floored by the overt pompousness.  He was one of the most mature posters over there (that's not really saying a whole lot, mind you), and I thought the whole thread, but especially that post, was extremely prickish.  It brought to my attention how narrow-minded people as a whole really are. 

Edit:  Your post brought it to the front of my brain (or wherever your thinking is done), and it makes me feel that I'm a better person for being honestly open-minded and not for the sake of being a hipster.  That being said, I think I ought to go read that book.

« Last Edit: 27 Dec 2006, 11:15 by Dimmukane »
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NiMRoD420

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #15 on: 27 Dec 2006, 11:56 »

Yeah, there have been a lot of people who I've otherwise regarded as highly intelligent and of a respectable intelligence quotient that have said similar things to me. "There is life after metal, dude." That one stuck in my head. Why after metal? Maybe seperate from, or parallel with, I could see.
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kokeyjoe

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #16 on: 27 Dec 2006, 17:23 »

This could even bridge over into the other thread about Grand Theft Auto games being considered a form of art.  As new forms of media gain recognition and prestige, the argument comes up whether they can get that coveted seal of approval as an art form.  Before Beethoven, it was unthinkable to change the number of movements in a concerto or symphony or use a scherzo as the third movement... before Debussy, it was unthinkable to have music without exposition or a discernable tempo.  Before jazz in the '20s, a LOT of things were unthinkable.  Before rock n' roll, it was unthinkable to have raucous youth sporting long and unkempt hair styles, or shaking their hips in a lascivious manner.  Before metal, it was unthinkable to drench your audiences in strange fluids a la Gwar or to consider blood-curdling screams as a form of valid musical expression.

Yet now, all of these things are commonplace and many are (arguably to some) considered art -- although it was with struggle for many, if not all, of them.  Every form of musical expression which is now a mainstay was once most likely considered "just noise" or something, but after it's around for enough time, the next thing comes along and shakes things up.  Then people who hold the previous form of expression near and dear just decry the new form.  Anyone who is a "jazz snob" just needs to be reminded how it was once considered "slave music" or some other load of crap, and that many people just looked down their nose at it like people look down their noses at metal (or its bizarro-world cousin, hip-hop) now.  And as far as jazz being race-exclusive, I'm just not sure.  Unless we're talking about Kenny G. jazz or something, I think jazz is one of the few musical forms that takes all kinds.

To paraphrase what others have said here, just because something isn't your cup o' tea doesn't mean it isn't valid artistic and emotional expression.
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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #17 on: 27 Dec 2006, 21:51 »

Quote
"oh, you'll grow out of it eventually.  you'll realize how cheesy metal is and start listening to real music."

Wait wait.  This guy is a huge fan of the Cure?  I like that band, but anybody with enough brains to examine Robert Smith's lyrics would think twice before calling metal cheesy and melodramatic.
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NiMRoD420

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #18 on: 27 Dec 2006, 22:49 »

Some like ultra spicy food, others think it's too hot and ruins the flavor. What can you say?
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Alarra

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #19 on: 27 Dec 2006, 23:14 »

Whether someone likes or doesn't like a certain song or group or even type of music makes no nevermind to me. It's their opinion plain and simple and everyone's entitled to that. What does bother me however, is when people discount an entire genre of music, be it metal, rap, jazz, or what have you without ever hearing it, or based on one or two songs. I am personally of the opinion that every genre has good and bad aspects to it and is worth listening to. And as to people gaining a greater appreciation for a wider variety of types of music as they get older, I don't know that I'd say that's true. Most of the older people I know, such as my parents, grandparents, etc, are very close minded about the music they listen to. "Was it made after 1970? Why then it's clearly not even worth hearing" That's the type of attitude I simply cannot stand. And personally, while I know it is more socially expected to discount certain genres based on cultural biases...rap, country, and metal specifically....I think that there is never a reason to discount an entire genre of music, whatever it is, since within each genre there's such a wide variation.
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NiMRoD420

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #20 on: 27 Dec 2006, 23:18 »

And you're absolutely right.
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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #21 on: 28 Dec 2006, 00:05 »

I really dont get why most metalheads dont like Jazz. I mean, listen to John Zorn's "Spy Vs. Spy - The Music of Ornette Coleman". I think Brutal Truth can learn a few things from that album.
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ScrambledGregs

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #22 on: 28 Dec 2006, 03:09 »

Metal was the sort of music I liked when I was younger because it was loud, fast, heavy, intense, etc. It was music I used to make myself feel stronger and more confident than I actually was. People didn't exactly fear me because I liked metal, but during one of my Freshmen year computer classes that some Seniors were in, they stopped giving me shit when I lied and told them I had gone to a Korn concert.

I suppose it's true that I don't like metal anymore because I don't bother trying to get beyond the obvious big names of metal, but I guess it's moreso that I just don't care for metal in any of its forms anymore in the same way that other people don't like rap or techno. Khar, you could probably personally come to my house and force me to listen to a bunch of metal albums that you feel would change my mind. I would sit there, nod, listen, and think they were good, but I wouldn't ever buy them or listen to them on my own. I'm sure there is a fuckton of great metal IF you like metal.

Basically, we're coming from two different perspectives here. I can't ever see myself liking metal again. It's not a matter of growing up or growing out of a phase so much as it is my tastes and perspectives have changed. Right now I'm listening to a Deerhoof cover of a My Bloody Valentine song and it's fucking magnificent. You would hate it. Different folks, different strokes.
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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #23 on: 28 Dec 2006, 03:22 »

During one of my Freshmen year computer classes that some Seniors were in, they stopped giving me shit when I lied and told them I had gone to a Korn concert.

I find this insanely funny.
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vivouk

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #24 on: 28 Dec 2006, 04:46 »

This is a really good thread. Give me a bit of time to contribute.
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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #25 on: 28 Dec 2006, 05:03 »

I really dont get why most metalheads dont like Jazz. I mean, listen to John Zorn's "Spy Vs. Spy - The Music of Ornette Coleman". I think Brutal Truth can learn a few things from that album.

I listen to a decent amount of coltrane, but I prefer faster-paced jazz as a whole over the slower stuff..  A lot of slow music bores me, but then again, I still like Sunn O)))).  And like the one guy up there said, many metal bands take hints from jazz....I don't get it either.
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KharBevNor

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #26 on: 28 Dec 2006, 05:59 »

I don't dislike Jazz. That Coltrane track someone posted was alright, I like some Miles Davis, and I listen to even more jazz-influenced things. Thing is, a lot of Jazz just doesn't do it for me. I'm pretty sure it's something to do with the drumming, the rhythm. I can't stand any shit like Dillinger Escape Plan or whatnot because of that stuff. I just can't get in to it. It's that I can't do unstructured music per se, it's just that there's a certain form of lack of structure. I don't know, it's here that my system breaks down, though I'd also suggest that there's a large amount of aesthetic judgement in it. I like Diamanda Galas, who (I think) does quite a few Jazz songs, and things like Sol Invictus' December Song. I love Ephel Duath, even enough to brave DEP to go and see them. I like Naked City. It's nothing to do with Jazz's musical qualities, it's the feeling, the aesthetic.
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David_Dovey

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #27 on: 28 Dec 2006, 06:05 »

During one of my Freshmen year computer classes that some Seniors were in, they stopped giving me shit when I lied and told them I had gone to a Korn concert.

I too, find this insanely funny.

Also, to build on what Alarra was saying in regards to people judging entire genres on one or two songs, the songs that people usually hear are the worst example for the genre anyway, whether that genre is metal, jazz, rap, whatever. Judging a genre based on the examples that you'd hear on the radio is possibly the worst way of going about learning about a genre ever. Should we be judging rap based on Lil Jon and Akon and other commercial "hip-hop" that's commonly played? Should we judge jazz by soft radio jazz? Should we judge metal by Black Album era Metallica, Nu-Metal and 80's Pop Metal?
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ScrambledGregs

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #28 on: 29 Dec 2006, 03:51 »

With the Korn thing, you have to understand that this was at a time when nu metal wasn't a joke yet and people who didn't like Korn and bands like them were sort of 'scared' of it.
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NiMRoD420

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #29 on: 29 Dec 2006, 04:43 »

'Cuz it was all kinds of twisted and scary?

Things with teeth that don't bite never work out well.
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jcknbl

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #30 on: 29 Dec 2006, 06:18 »

Ok, this thread is about to get a little less magnanimous but hopefully no less respectful and intelligent.


Khar, I love the first part of your first post. I wish you had left it there  :wink:

Quote from: KharBevNor link=topic=14255.msg433195#msg433195 date=1167150821?
If you look at what artists and songs in the metal genre are liked by indie fans, you can see how this comes off: a lot of people who are generally indie fans like metal ironically, ie, they view the whole thing as, basically, a post-modernist reference to itself. That's why when more hipster type people start a metal band it will do well in the indie community but completely tank in the metalhead arena: very few metalheads listen to Goblin Cock. They can smell the insincerity a mile off.

This probably requires a whole other thread but I think this whole idea of "liking something ironically" is a really weird claim.  Maybe you could articulate better what exactly you mean by this. If I like something ironically does that mean I don't REALLY like it? Do I not enjoy listening to it? Is it part of some kind of social posturing? I know a lot of fans of indie music myself included (I don't know if you'd include me in your "hipster" catagory) who sincerely like some hip hop which is saturated by self-reference. How does a post-modern self-reference differs from a regular self reference.

Quote
Also, in considering the issue of jazz vs metal, it might be worth noting that, in America in particular, some elements have trickled down to the modern indie milieu of the rampant anti-racist sentiments of the cooler sections of the 60's counterculture. That is, there is an unconscious racial judgement made that sees metal as something inherently white, and thus crass, and jazz as something inherently black, and thus cool. Although, I say that its unconscious, but if hipsters want to mock metal, then the phrases 'white trash' and 'white supremacy', even if used purely as a joke, are not far behind. It is often subconsciously, or consciously, assumed that every metalhead who hates rap is probably just a little bit racist.

This is sort of curious. First, doesn't the "The Hipster" also ironically like gangsta rap? Given that and the fact that the Hipster is white do you think its more likely that theres a class issue here? Indie music is definitely a upper-middle class college campus thing here (though most of the music probably comes from middle class-upper working class kids).

Quote
I don't think race really has anything to do with a bands musical output whatsoever, and, in some way, a lot of people do. I don't understand the hip-hop cultures seeming monomaniac obsession with race any more than I understand heterosexual men not wanting it up the poopchute. I mean, to illustrate an example: outside the NSBM and NSBM friendly twats, I don't think any metalhead would actually judge a band on, whether they were, say, black (like most of the admittedly ironically named Znowhite) or asian (countless amazing Japanese and other bands), they would judge them on the music, whilst, seemingly, a white rapper already has quite a hurdle to overcome anyway, and basically has to key in to black culture to have any success (whilst, a band, like, say, Sigh, might be entirely rooted in Japanese culture). I'm rambling off on this without being PC, by the way, so no offence to anyone. It's just, like I say, I don't ever actually consider race as an issue in music (or any walk of life, really), so I don't talk or think about this sort of thing much.

This is a huge difference between smart progressive people on opposite sides of the pond. Over here the color-blindness thing has become a way hide racism behind the conscious mind and structural barriers. Theres all sorts of cultural reasons for why hip-hop acts need to connect to black culture (and I don't really think its a bad thing). In anycase the distinction you make between the real life and the fantasy aesthetic does a pretty good job explaining this- if your art is going to address the real world and you're going to use a form invented by urban blacks then you can't not address race if you live in the US.

Remember, the hipster in the street ascribes to that first, 'reality-centric' aesthetic. He thrives on post-modernism, and popular culture, and thus the representations he sees of metalheads to him embody metalheads. Any metalheads he may meet who differ from his ideas are exceptions to the rule.

Do you think that your "hipster in the street" might be as much of a strawman stereotype as that hipster's conceptiong of a metalhead? And can you at least give us a working definition of post-modernism? I feel like you're just throwing it around.

I think your main thesis is really sound though.
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NiMRoD420

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #31 on: 29 Dec 2006, 06:39 »

Once I brought a Children Of Bodom cd to my "Great Music Listening" course and played for my teacher and the class, the last 90 seconds of "Kissing The Shadows" - what I feel is a particularly inspired shredfest.

Prof. likened the music to that of Niccolo Paganini. I could definitely see that. The class seemed afraid to react to it, though we had just completed a course that explained to everyone in attendance how to fully dissect complicated music and pick out any ostinatos, leitmotifs, or straight up riffs among myriad weeegley-woos and meedley-mrroowwws. The class seemed to all send me a telepathic signal, "don't you realize that metal is dorky, dork?"

I realize that doesn't really address what we're talking about. But I just remembered about this story.
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camelpimp

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #32 on: 29 Dec 2006, 07:35 »

This thread reminded me of why I don't like to talk about my music tastes. Because, as we've been discussing, people judge you by what you listen to. I've seen people on this forum try and discredit someone else's opinion based on something they like. Should it fucking matter whether or not one likes Avril Lavinge? (I think I spelled that wrong) If you like her, does that mean you cannot judge music fairly? That you can't also like jazz?

Also! It's funny how Khar is condemning the hipster dismissal of metalheads, yet is stereotyping hipsters. Er, that came out bitcher than I meant it.

What I'm pretty always trying to say all the fucking time is people really need to lighten up...
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NiMRoD420

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #33 on: 29 Dec 2006, 07:40 »

Or light one up. Now am I right or am I right?

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #34 on: 29 Dec 2006, 09:31 »

This probably requires a whole other thread but I think this whole idea of "liking something ironically" is a really weird claim.  Maybe you could articulate better what exactly you mean by this. If I like something ironically does that mean I don't REALLY like it? Do I not enjoy listening to it? Is it part of some kind of social posturing? I know a lot of fans of indie music myself included (I don't know if you'd include me in your "hipster" catagory) who sincerely like some hip hop which is saturated by self-reference. How does a post-modern self-reference differs from a regular self reference.

Hipsters (and yes, I know that is a generalised term as hipsters do not self-define, and it covers a good range of people, but it is a category I will have to employ to say anything useful, to be honest) seem to enjoy the cultural trappings of the thing, rather than the thing itself. The hipster finds it impossible to seperate metal from the context in which he understands it: Maiden shirts with the sleeves torn off, denim and leather, pabst blue ribbon, bad hair, etc. etc. and in the musical sense the cheesyness, bad lyrics, etc. There always seems to be a certain level of 'I LOVE THE 80's' to the stereotypical Hispter's (lets call him SH from now on) appreciation of metal. There isn't any sort of emotional connection with the music, which is why our SH will probably hate guitar heroics, because he can't ever see past them as 'masturbation'.

Quote
This is sort of curious. First, doesn't the "The Hipster" also ironically like gangsta rap? Given that and the fact that the Hipster is white do you think its more likely that theres a class issue here? Indie music is definitely a upper-middle class college campus thing here (though most of the music probably comes from middle class-upper working class kids).

I refer you to the phenomenon of top 50 album lists containing 48 all-white rock and electronic artists and exactly one Public Enemy and one Miles Davis album.

Quote
Do you think that your "hipster in the street" might be as much of a strawman stereotype as that hipster's conceptiong of a metalhead? And can you at least give us a working definition of post-modernism? I feel like you're just throwing it around.

Post-modernism is a hard thing to define indeed, but I think I'd probably sum it up as a cultural attitude built on immersion in a fragmented popular culture. Post-modernism is about intertextual reference, appropriation and the idea that it is hard to stratify the worth of cultural artifacts. In practice it expresses itself as an obsession with cultural ephemera. That's not such a good description, but to be fair most people would have trouble with it, it's a nebulous concept. The important thing to note, however, is that it sets up another set of oppositions between the two world-views we're talking about. The modern world is, in fact, really the post-modern world, in the way general culture, art, music etc. operate. Metal, on the other hand, is firmly stuck back in the cultural past, in a romantic tradition that still clings to the mythical archetypes and meta-narratives that post-modernism has dissected. You could also argue that metal derives from folk culture and appropriated high culture, whilst our nebulous definition of indie or whatnot is pop culture.
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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #35 on: 29 Dec 2006, 18:46 »

Also! It's funny how Khar is condemning the hipster dismissal of metalheads, yet is stereotyping hipsters. Er, that came out bitcher than I meant it.

I don't think it's possible to bring every possible hipster into the equation, and let's face it most people already have preconcieved opinions of others based on their musical tastes regardless of what genre they themselves belong.
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KharBevNor

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #36 on: 29 Dec 2006, 23:44 »

I am currently attempting to locate this gentlemans phone number.



Although Tommy, to be quite frank, in the sense I'm talking, you can just talk to yourself.
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Johnny C

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #37 on: 29 Dec 2006, 23:46 »

From Google:

Quote
A hipster is a person who derives his identity largely through his association with a subculture which has been deemed "hip," a word taken from African American Vernacular English (AAVE). Hip means "fashionably current," and likely came from the Wolof word hipi, meaning "to open one's eyes," or "to be aware."

What a silly term to use as a stereotype. There are far too many subcultures which have greater hipness than the mainstream. Even some metalheads qualify as hipsters by this token.
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Johnny C

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #38 on: 30 Dec 2006, 00:06 »

Maybe Khar has a point. I don't know one person who's into y?-y? that isn't a hipster bastard.
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KharBevNor

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #39 on: 30 Dec 2006, 00:29 »

Hipsters try to win arguments with wikipedia and smugness.

I'm not scapegoating anyone, I'm trying to discuss a cultural archetype which, like it or not, definitely exists, and is definitely represented by a good 80% of the people on this board. You can wiffle about the language all you want, and try and come up with proofs and examples, but you know exactly what I mean by the word, just as everyone really knows exactly what someone else means when they say indie.

And let me give you a clue, it isn't Whitehouse of the Mull Historical Society.
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Johnny C

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #40 on: 30 Dec 2006, 00:40 »

I am merely suggesting that at most we make a valid attempt to return the term "hipster" to its original definition. You'll note that it doesn't anywhere say "they enjoy things ironically." They just identify themselves as being part of a subculture that has some level of cultural appeal to it. They are "hip."

I know very few people who enjoy things ironically. Everything I listen to and like I legitimately enjoy. I would be willing to say that the same volume of people that you characterize as living this archetype of "hipsterism" are the same way.

Oh, and -

It is about larger than life characters in unreal situations, dressed like Satans take on the village people. When metal comments on the world, it comments on issues outside most peoples experience, mostly historical and military. It is exaggerated, stark, brash, and comes off to supporters of the first aesthetic as adolescent and crude, whilst to its fans it can offer literally transcendent emotion.

Rap is about larger than life characters in unreal situations, dressed like basketball players take on the Godfather. When hip-hop comments on the world, it comments on issues outside most peoples experience, mostly in the ghetto. It is exaggerated, stark, brash, and comes off to supporters of the first aesthetic as adolescent and crude, whilst to its fans it can offer literally transcendent emotion.
« Last Edit: 30 Dec 2006, 00:43 by Johnny C »
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KharBevNor

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #41 on: 30 Dec 2006, 00:43 »

I'm not saying that everything Hipsters enjoy is ironic. Neither am I claiming that what I call 'ironic' appreciation is false. I'm just saying that different aspects of a thing, perhaps in the case of metal more superficial aspects, are appreciated. There are plenty of metalheads who just like the superficial things: these are the people who will 'grow out' of metal.
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KharBevNor

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #42 on: 30 Dec 2006, 01:29 »

That's not what I want to do at all. Also, I'd like to point out to you that by reading what I have written on the internet, even if you have read all of it, you still do not actually have an accurate picture of my personality. Yes, I probably come off as an angry person. There is a lot to make anyone angry in the world. It is through creative expression that I ground this anger. My blog is as much catharsis as anything else, as is a lot of my music and art. I don't think you'll find much existential anger in my proper articles or reviews. As far as being angry here, well, people just piss me off. Being patronised, for example, I can't stand it. It makes me want to hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.   

Still, I don't walk around in a constant spitting fury, and neither are all my posts angry, by far. As for Misanthropy, I am really actually quite an optimist about the human condition. I just don't happen to like the configuration it's got itself in to. I don't loathe people, I loathe popular culture.
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Johnny C

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #43 on: 30 Dec 2006, 01:37 »

Thus far there has been no response to my assertion that Khar's argument about metal's "other" appeal has remarkable parallels with hip-hop. I think we can all agree this thread would be better if people responded to things I said.
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KharBevNor

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #44 on: 30 Dec 2006, 01:46 »

How do you mean, metals other appeal?

I do remember reading an editorial (getting back to that damn race thing) that was posted on Metal Crypt, basically about how people shouldn't expect to see that many black people involved in metal, because it was completely born out of white culture in the 70's and 80's, in the same way hip-hop was born out of black culture, in a sense making them each others bastard racial twins, or something. It's not a bad argument really. Also, it includes this paragraph, which is one of the truest things I've ever read:

Quote from: Sargon the Terrible
I had this dream once: it was Beowulf coming out of the lake in front of Grendel?s cave. Only instead of holding a broken sword over his head, he had a big-ass guitar on which he proceeded to play this fucking cool guitar solo while all the thanes on shore headbanged. It was incredibly stupid, but it was also really cool. The way you can tell if you are metal is if you think that sounds cool too, no matter how stupid it is.
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NiMRoD420

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #45 on: 30 Dec 2006, 02:11 »

I think you guys should get a room and intellectually copulate so that the nine headed demon baby that is spawned from said union can lead us all to true musical glory.

Quote from: Sargon the Terrible
I had this dream once: it was Beowulf coming out of the lake in front of Grendel?s cave. Only instead of holding a broken sword over his head, he had a big-ass guitar on which he proceeded to play this fucking cool guitar solo while all the thanes on shore headbanged. It was incredibly stupid, but it was also really cool. The way you can tell if you are metal is if you think that sounds cool too, no matter how stupid it is.

Oh... and I think that's fucking awesome!
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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #46 on: 30 Dec 2006, 02:17 »

Being patronised, for example, I can't stand it.

I don't understand how you could feel patronised by anything I say or do. I am so obviously an idiot. There are vats of fermenting yeast out there more intellectually capable than I. I honestly count on my fingers and toes. Once you bear stuff like this in mind, surely you can see how this would be pretty much the furthest thing from my mind. Wouldn't the ability to patronise rely on having some self esteem? Nope, don't have any of that.

This is not what I'm saying. I am saying you are being condescending towards me by dint of the fact that you are taking your age as an indication that you have reached a superior state of mental maturity to me and guiding me towards such a state. To me, that comes off as patronising. You do it, probably, without realising it.
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NiMRoD420

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #47 on: 30 Dec 2006, 02:33 »

So... metal is like a chick with a dick?
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KharBevNor

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #48 on: 30 Dec 2006, 02:45 »

Well duh. Chicks with dicks are hot.
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ScrambledGregs

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Re: Regarding personal preferences
« Reply #49 on: 30 Dec 2006, 02:50 »

You recently claimed that this forum is being mired by the 'cult of personality' that surrounds me and yet you seem to miss the irony of making this forum another one in which all the denizens do is talk about what an asshole I am. Let's not do that, it's duller than dishwater.

Dudes, Tommy is such an asshole. Actually, an arsehole. I think he's British or something shit like that.
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